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KathyS
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Re: Discussion Week 2: Lighthouse Page 77 - communication

[ Edited ]
I'm sorry about your fight....the worst ending for both parties. Feelings sometimes do get mixed up with issues. And the separation isn't always easy to see and work through. This is the difficulty when trying to talk about absolute feelings, when the other person wants to talk about issues. When moving on and away from these situations, it is great when it can be done, but focusing on positive alternatives sometimes just takes time. And with the parties involved, work.

IlanaSimons wrote:


KathyS wrote:
Giving feelings to someone has always been the hardest position I've put myself in. You go into it with hoping for insight into your own feelings, as well as the other persons, but never really knowing what the response will be, it can be agonizing.



Yes. It's incredibly hard to get into someone else's head. I had a major blow-up-fight last night on this issue. ...Sometimes you just can't feel what the other person feels, and this situation is such a dark sinking-away.
I do think it's great that we've got imaginations that are capable of creative, reviving rewrites of bleak situations...or an ability to rebound even in the face of communication failure. We can emphasize and focus on the connections we do make.



Message Edited by KathyS on 08-02-2007 08:53 AM
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Peppermill
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Re: Discussion Week 2: Lighthouse Page 77 - communication


KathyS wrote:
I'm sorry about your fight....the worst ending for both parties. Feelings sometimes do get mixed up with issues. And the separation isn't always easy to see and work through. This is the difficulty when trying to talk about absolute feelings, when the other person wants to talk about issues. When moving on and away from these situations, it is great when it can be done, but focusing on positive alternatives sometimes just takes time. And with the parties involved, work.

IlanaSimons wrote:

KathyS wrote:
Giving feelings to someone has always been the hardest position I've put myself in. You go into it with hoping for insight into your own feelings, as well as the other persons, but never really knowing what the response will be, it can be agonizing.
Yes. It's incredibly hard to get into someone else's head. I had a major blow-up-fight last night on this issue. ...Sometimes you just can't feel what the other person feels, and this situation is such a dark sinking-away.
I do think it's great that we've got imaginations that are capable of creative, reviving rewrites of bleak situations...or an ability to rebound even in the face of communication failure. We can emphasize and focus on the connections we do make.


Is the feeling you are having that you aren't being heard? Or is it that you feel it is your responsibility to be in sync with the other person? Or that you feel you should be able to guess what someone else is feeling? Or that you would like others to simply "know" what you are feeling?

I suspect Ilana has had some form of "reflection" training -- anyway, I had some minimal amount before doing some one-on-one care, i.e., to attempt to reflect another person's feelings as you hear them and then to listen while they agree with you or correct you. Then to try again, if necessary.

The other side of that coin is to ask another what he/she thinks you are feeling and then attempt to access and correct what was said, asking them to reflect what they heard again.

If either of you have used this technique, I would be interested in your experience with it. I think I would have an easier time face-to-face with such a technique than on a board like this, but you have just given me a chance to experiment.

Just describing the technique here may help me with a relationship issue I currently need to face. Thanks for listening.
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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KathyS
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Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Banks - Isolation

It's almost 5 a.m. I haven't been able to sleep tonight. I'm in a place of aloneness, but I can't get Mr. Banks to stop talking to me so I can be alone to sleep. He wants to talk to me about his need to be alone, also.

I'm sitting at the table with him while he agonizes over what to say to the people he's sitting next to. Even Mrs. Ramsay, as close as he has felt towards her, he's feeling a distance between them....she's another stranger in the room. He can't speak, he wants to leave the table.

I feel that distance at this moment. I'm a child in my room, sitting on the edge the cold hardwood floor, up against the wall.
The isolation is consoling when I draw my legs up to my chest. I rest my head on my knees.

Mr. Banks looks at his hand on the table. Does it belong to him?....he wonders. There is isolation between him and the rest of the people around him, and even with his own body he feels that isolation.

Is he being heard? He doesn't feel so. I feel for him, I'm not being heard. I feel his frustration. I hate being here with him. I've tried twice to talk, and be heard, and I'm not being heard. I'm wondering if I'm not hearing. I can't guess what someone else is feeling unless they tell me. I don't expect anyone to know what I'm feeling unless I tell them. I know there is hurt involved, but I can't isolate it enough to know what to do about it. I want to leave my room, but I can't because it's too comfortable. But I wish Mr. Banks would leave.

I sat in the Dr's office today. I watched the people in the room. I was one of eight. Each entertaining themselves, but isolated. Three young girls were reading a book, The Encyclopedia of Presidents. I wanted to ask them about it, but I didn't. I saw that their hair was braided, and little plastic ornaments hung from the ends. I wanted to tell them how cute it was, but I also wondered how annoying those ornaments were to have falling in their face. So I sat silent. Everyone else had books, or magazines, or an Ibod....except one lone woman, who stared off into space. The table in the center of the room was strewn with reading material. I had my book. But I couldn't read. We all sat together, but isolated, even though we had a common interest in being there....to see one of the Doctors, but no one spoke. I was taken to one of the many rooms, and I sat isolated.

I wish Virginia would talk to me. But she's in her own room. I don't want to talk to Mr. Banks anymore. I'm going back to bed.
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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Banks - Isolation

[ Edited ]
I'm so impressed that Mr. Bankes stuck in your mind. so many people block Mr. Bankes out. I love that you took him in.

You might not know how much of this part of your post, below, resonates with Woolf.
Her dad was distant because he was always busy editing the Dictionary of National Biography, his life's work--a compilation of hundreds of small biographical entries on famous people. So your "Encyclopedia of Presidents" is resonant. And the doctor's office was the place Woolf considered most alienating of all places. Have you read Mrs. Dalloway yet? You'll know what I mean if you read it.


KathyS wrote:
....I sat in the Dr's office today. I watched the people in the room. I was one of eight. Each entertaining themselves, but isolated. Three young girls were reading a book, The Encyclopedia of Presidents. I wanted to ask them about it, but I didn't. I saw that their hair was braided, and little plastic ornaments hung from the ends. I wanted to tell them how cute it was, but I also wondered how annoying those ornaments were to have falling in their face. So I sat silent. Everyone else had books, or magazines, or an Ibod....except one lone woman, who stared off into space. The table in the center of the room was strewn with reading material. I had my book. But I couldn't read. We all sat together, but isolated, even though we had a common interest in being there....to see one of the Doctors, but no one spoke. I was taken to one of the many rooms, and I sat isolated.



Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 08-04-2007 12:24 PM



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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Banks - Isolation


KathyS wrote:
br>
I wish Virginia would talk to me. But she's in her own room. I don't want to talk to Mr. Banks anymore. I'm going back to bed.






KathyS wrote:

Would you tell Mrs. Woolf I would like to talk to her too. But should I address her as Mrs. Woolf or Virginia? I think Virginia - I know her much too well to call her Mrs. Woolf. Boy there are lots of things I would like to ask her!

The Salty Dog
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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Banks - Isolation

There used to be a funny site on the Web in which you could actually "Ask Virginia Woolf a question" and get a response. Ever see it?
I'm searching for it now but can't find it....



saltydog wrote:

KathyS wrote:
br>
I wish Virginia would talk to me. But she's in her own room. I don't want to talk to Mr. Banks anymore. I'm going back to bed.






KathyS wrote:

Would you tell Mrs. Woolf I would like to talk to her too. But should I address her as Mrs. Woolf or Virginia? I think Virginia - I know her much too well to call her Mrs. Woolf. Boy there are lots of things I would like to ask her!

The Salty Dog





Ilana
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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Bankes - Isolation

[ Edited ]
Ilana,
I don't know anything more about Virginia and her life, other than what you're telling me, here. I haven't wanted to read about it. To The Lighthouse is the only book I'm reading at this time, and I've read only [up to] what I'm showing you. I do have Mrs. Dalloway, but I feel as though I need to get through this book first. I don't know which book will follow.

I understand why people would want to block out Mr. Bankes.

Thank you for your thoughts
K.

IlanaSimons wrote:
I'm so impressed that Mr. Bankes stuck in your mind. so many people block Mr. Bankes out. I love that you took him in.

You might not know how much of this part of your post, below, resonates with Woolf.
Her dad was distant because he was always busy editing the Dictionary of National Biography, his life's work--a compilation of hundreds of small biographical entries on famous people. So your "Encyclopedia of Presidents" is resonant. And the doctor's office was the place Woolf considered most alienating of all places. Have you read Mrs. Dalloway yet? You'll know what I mean if you read it.


KathyS wrote:
....I sat in the Dr's office today. I watched the people in the room. I was one of eight. Each entertaining themselves, but isolated. Three young girls were reading a book, The Encyclopedia of Presidents. I wanted to ask them about it, but I didn't. I saw that their hair was braided, and little plastic ornaments hung from the ends. I wanted to tell them how cute it was, but I also wondered how annoying those ornaments were to have falling in their face. So I sat silent. Everyone else had books, or magazines, or an Ibod....except one lone woman, who stared off into space. The table in the center of the room was strewn with reading material. I had my book. But I couldn't read. We all sat together, but isolated, even though we had a common interest in being there....to see one of the Doctors, but no one spoke. I was taken to one of the many rooms, and I sat isolated.



Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 08-04-2007 12:24 PM



Message Edited by KathyS on 08-04-2007 11:11 AM
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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Banks - Isolation



saltydog wrote:

KathyS wrote:
br>
I wish Virginia would talk to me. But she's in her own room. I don't want to talk to Mr. Banks anymore. I'm going back to bed.






KathyS wrote:

Would you tell Mrs. Woolf I would like to talk to her too. But should I address her as Mrs. Woolf or Virginia? I think Virginia - I know her much too well to call her Mrs. Woolf. Boy there are lots of things I would like to ask her!

The Salty Dog


If you know her, I'm sure addressing her as Virginia would be fine. What would you like to ask her? I don't have any questions for her, I simply wanted to talk to her.
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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Banks - Isolation

Her dad called her "Ginnie," and her sister called her "Goat."
She called her husband "Mongoose" and her sister "Dolphin."



KathyS wrote:
If you know her, I'm sure addressing her as Virginia would be fine. What would you like to ask her? I don't have any questions for her, I simply wanted to talk to her.
K.





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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Banks - Isolation

[ Edited ]
Nice terms of endearment ~ But I think I'll stick with Virginia! Were they into animals? :smileyhappy:

IlanaSimons wrote:
Her dad called her "Ginnie," and her sister called her "Goat."
She called her husband "Mongoose" and her sister "Dolphin."



KathyS wrote:
If you know her, I'm sure addressing her as Virginia would be fine. What would you like to ask her? I don't have any questions for her, I simply wanted to talk to her.
K.



Message Edited by KathyS on 08-04-2007 02:50 PM
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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Banks - Isolation



KathyS wrote:
Nice terms of endearment ~ But I think I'll stick with Virginia! Were they into animals?



Yes. Leonard, her husband, carried his pet monkey on his shoulder almost everywhere he went. I think intense love of pets is common in sexless marriages. I know that last sentence is offensive.



Ilana
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Re: Ilana : 'Mrs Woolf and the Servants'

You may be interested in this review of Alison Light's newly published book 'Mrs Woolf and the Servants':-

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2141610,00.html
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Re: Ilana : 'Mrs Woolf and the Servants'

Thanks. It's a good review. I like this line: "Prejudice, Light [the author] remarks, was [Woolf's] default mode, even though she picked at these prejudices in her fiction."

Isn't that true: We build philosophies about justice but can be hags to people around us. I'm talkin' about me-self.




Choisya wrote:
You may be interested in this review of Alison Light's newly published book 'Mrs Woolf and the Servants':-

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2141610,00.html





Ilana
Check out my book, here and visit my website, here.


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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Bankes - Isolation



IlanaSimons wrote:


KathyS wrote:
Nice terms of endearment ~ But I think I'll stick with Virginia! Were they into animals?



Yes. Leonard, her husband, carried his pet monkey on his shoulder almost everywhere he went. I think intense love of pets is common in sexless marriages. I know that last sentence is offensive.


Hmm....I'm not looking at the offensive part, because I take none, but out of curiosity, I was kind of wondering where you came up with that one. I see you use the word "intense", and "I think"....could you explain this, and was there a survey done on this, or what? :smileyhappy: Or is this a personal observation?
(gads, I'm beginning to sound like Everyman!)....no offense! :smileyvery-happy:
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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Bankes - Isolation

It's merely personal observation. Love needs to go somewhere, and pets can be unambiguous partners in receiving love. We talked a little bit about this topic on this board a few weeks ago.



KathyS wrote:


IlanaSimons wrote:


KathyS wrote:
Nice terms of endearment ~ But I think I'll stick with Virginia! Were they into animals?



Yes. Leonard, her husband, carried his pet monkey on his shoulder almost everywhere he went. I think intense love of pets is common in sexless marriages. I know that last sentence is offensive.


Hmm....I'm not looking at the offensive part, because I take none, but out of curiosity, I was kind of wondering where you came up with that one. I see you use the word "intense", and "I think"....could you explain this, and was there a survey done on this, or what? :smileyhappy: Or is this a personal observation?
(gads, I'm beginning to sound like Everyman!)....no offense! :smileyvery-happy:





Ilana
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Re: Lighthouse - off topic

I'm Sorry, I don't remember this part about sexless marriages, and pets being unambiguous partners. I can see your point, to a point - if you view sex and love as being synonymous, which I don't. (although an ideal combination)

I have several friends who had chosen not to have children, and some that couldn't have children....I do see these couples as being extremely attached to their pets. I simply assumed it was because of not having children, wanting to give an over abundance of love away. Although, I've never asked them about their sex life. hmm....

I've observed, with friends who have kids - usually have pets, and loved them as well. In my case, the pets I had during my marriage was because of the kids. I didn't want them, although I did love them. Except for the dog we had, briefly....who wanted to chew up the pool cover, lawn chairs, trees in half....we found her a good home. I'm personally too independent and self centered to want to take care of an animal, in addition to having allergies. I raised two kids, and unfortunately raised a husband in the process.....enough. I wonder what catagory I fit into?

So how does all of this fit into the Virginia and Leonard scenario? Do I want to ask?

IlanaSimons wrote:
It's merely personal observation. Love needs to go somewhere, and pets can be unambiguous partners in receiving love. We talked a little bit about this topic on this board a few weeks ago.



KathyS wrote:


IlanaSimons wrote:


KathyS wrote:
Nice terms of endearment ~ But I think I'll stick with Virginia! Were they into animals?



Yes. Leonard, her husband, carried his pet monkey on his shoulder almost everywhere he went. I think intense love of pets is common in sexless marriages. I know that last sentence is offensive.


Hmm....I'm not looking at the offensive part, because I take none, but out of curiosity, I was kind of wondering where you came up with that one. I see you use the word "intense", and "I think"....could you explain this, and was there a survey done on this, or what? :smileyhappy: Or is this a personal observation?
(gads, I'm beginning to sound like Everyman!)....no offense! :smileyvery-happy:





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Re: Lighthouse - off topic

Actually, I think I'll agree. I think pets often fulfill a mother/fathering instinct better than the sex instinct. So: replace "sexless" with "childless" marriage. And then we'll end this talk, because my generalizations here are, I know, sloppy.




KathyS wrote:
I'm Sorry, I don't remember this part about sexless marriages, and pets being unambiguous partners. I can see your point, to a point - if you view sex and love as being synonymous, which I don't. (although an ideal combination)

I have several friends who had chosen not to have children, and some that couldn't have children....I do see these couples as being extremely attached to their pets. I simply assumed it was because of not having children, wanting to give an over abundance of love away. Although, I've never asked them about their sex life. hmm....

I've observed, with friends who have kids - usually have pets, and loved them as well. In my case, the pets I had during my marriage was because of the kids. I didn't want them, although I did love them. Except for the dog we had, briefly....who wanted to chew up the pool cover, lawn chairs, trees in half....we found her a good home. I'm personally too independent and self centered to want to take care of an animal, in addition to having allergies. I raised two kids, and unfortunately raised a husband in the process.....enough. I wonder what catagory I fit into?

So how does all of this fit into the Virginia and Leonard scenario? Do I want to ask?

IlanaSimons wrote:
It's merely personal observation. Love needs to go somewhere, and pets can be unambiguous partners in receiving love. We talked a little bit about this topic on this board a few weeks ago.



KathyS wrote:


IlanaSimons wrote:


KathyS wrote:
Nice terms of endearment ~ But I think I'll stick with Virginia! Were they into animals?



Yes. Leonard, her husband, carried his pet monkey on his shoulder almost everywhere he went. I think intense love of pets is common in sexless marriages. I know that last sentence is offensive.


Hmm....I'm not looking at the offensive part, because I take none, but out of curiosity, I was kind of wondering where you came up with that one. I see you use the word "intense", and "I think"....could you explain this, and was there a survey done on this, or what? :smileyhappy: Or is this a personal observation?
(gads, I'm beginning to sound like Everyman!)....no offense! :smileyvery-happy:











Ilana
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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Reflections through the window pane

[ Edited ]
Now all the candles were lit up, and the faces on both sides of the table were brought nearer by the candle light, and composed, as they had not been in the twilight, into a party round a table, for the night was not shut off by panes of glass, which far from giving any accurate view of the ouside word, rippled it so strangely that here, inside the room, seemed to be order and dry land; there, outside, a reflection in which things wavered and vanished, waterily.

After reading this, I wasn't sure if it was how I was feeling, being on the inside on this board, trying to look out through those window panes; or peering in from the outside world. I wonder where reality begins and where it stops.

Message Edited by KathyS on 08-07-2007 01:11 AM
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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- The dinner table

[ Edited ]
Just some thoughts around the dinner table.

There seems to be an incredible amount of electricity throughout this scene at the table. I get two pictures of this.....a strong magnet at the table, and watching all of the iron particles draw to it.....Mrs. Ramsay, appears to be the magnet.

-------dragging feelings from one person to another; up one minute and down the next.....an observer, I'm being bounced around as if I'm sitting on the ocean's crest during a storm, one minute I'm up; the next I'm being plunged down into that bottom, feeling the undercurrent.

Lilly:
-------the emotions, the vibration, of love. How inconspicuous she felt herself by Paul's side! He, glowing, burning; she, aloof, satirical; he, bound for adventure; she, moored to the shore; he, launched, incautious; she, solitary, left out-----and, ready to implore a share, if it were disaster, in his disaster--------

Such was the complexity of things--------for what happened to her--------was to be made to feel violently two opposite things at the same time; that's what you feel, was one; that's what I feel, was the other, and then they fought together in her mind-----


The candles are lit and everything takes on a different light.

Mrs. Ramsay:
Now she need not listen. It could not last, she knew, but at the moment her eyes were so clear that they seemed to go round the table unveiling each of these people, and their thoughts and their feelings, without effort like a light stealing under water so that it ripples and the reeds in it and the minnow balancing themselves, and the sudden silent trout are all lit up hanging, trembling--------something to the right, something to the left; and the whole is held together---

I feel like I'm being suspended over it all.

Lyrics from Kismet

Stranger In Paradise

I saw your face
And I ascended
Out of the common place
into the rare!
Somewhere in space
I hang suspended
Until I know
There's a chance that you care-------


Message Edited by KathyS on 08-07-2007 12:48 AM
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Re: Lighthouse - XVII- Mr. Banks - Isolation

Good-bye, Virginia, wherever you are.