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IlanaSimons
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

Good post--you're bringing a few of us together into conversation.
Your last line seems true: If religion makes us better, it's a good human drive.

Nietzsche himself would call it an illusion that is sometimes productive, but also a sign of weakness and often a source of criminality. We don't have to agree.




IBIS wrote:
But his thrust was clear--to kill off our interest in a higher God. He wanted to show that any "meaning" that can matter to humans is human meaning.
____________________________________________________________________

Nietzsche comment that "In heaven, all the interesting people are missing" assumes that heaven is filled with placidly peaceful humans. As Roger Crisp wrote: "...humans ...floating very drunk in a warm bath."

That does depend on one's idea of heaven. I agree with Everyman's comment that we humans are imperfect, and therefore there never will be perfect people in heaven.

Interesting people are those who have struggled with their unformed selves to form their identities; who make difficult choices and decisions to create meaningful and worthwhile lives for themselves, and their fellow humans.

That is a fine definition of saints. They were all imperfect humans who tried, and failed, and struggled to make their faith and beliefs strengthen their self-understanding.

Their struggles as imperfect humans was directed towards an understanding, and an interest in a higher God. Who's to say that any "meaning" that can matter to humans is human meaning. If searching for God gives meaning to saint-like people, that gives is human meaning.





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IlanaSimons
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

[ Edited ]
or can....

[obvious statements brought to you courtesy of me]


IlanaSimons wrote:
Good post--you're bringing a few of us together into conversation.
Your last line seems true: If religion makes us better, it's a good human drive.

Nietzsche himself would call it an illusion that is sometimes productive, but also a sign of weakness and often a source of criminality. We don't have to agree.


Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 06-22-2007 06:56 PM



Ilana
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KathyS
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Saints

The use of the word *saint* -
I've often heard the word *saints* misused by people in general. It definately has more than one meaning. It has no relevance [in the biblical sense] to being perfect, because there is no perfect person, as hard as we may try. You can't *work* at being a saint. In the biblical text, specifically in the words of Paul, he speaks to his followers as being saints......it simply means a believer and follower of the Gospel.

There is certainly something that drives someone to believe. The faith, need and desire has to be there. I can only speak for myself. I don't consider this drive a weakness, on the contrary. If there is something that propels me and helps me to finding a change for the better in my life - changing it to goodness, and yes, love (finding it in myself and others), then I think it has to be nothing but a good path to follow.

Kathy S.
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Peppermill
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Nietzsche -- Aphorisms and Proverbs

[ Edited ]

IlanaSimons wrote:
This, I think, is the spirit of aphorisms--putting it out there, unfinished but waiting for reaction. I like it.


Two aphorisms, if my terminology is correct, that I think are fun to put alongside each other and to consider their truth(s), are:

God is dead.

God is love.

Depending on the meanings one hangs on God, death, and love in which aphorism, I'm not certain these are or remain necessarily contradictory. And, we have probably already explored as much in these threads.

Message Edited by Peppermill on 06-22-2007 08:48 PM
"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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Choisya
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

What is 'amazing grace' other than the song?




Laurel wrote:
I know. David actually committed adultery and murder. I believe in amazing grace. And thanks for reminding me of the musicians. Bach, Mendessohn, Handel. . . .



Choisya wrote:
Moses, Michaelangelo, David, Newton, Boyle, Pascal, Shakespeare, Dante, Milton, Esther, Ruth, Deborah, and that's all the time I have for now.

Gosh, at least three of those had pretty suspect lives Laurel - do you think they might get absolution/redemption or whatever it is, for their work/contribution to society? I used to have a musician friend who thought all the great musicians would get to heaven on this basis and my response was 'what a cacophony there would be!':smileyvery-happy:




Laurel wrote:


Nelsmom wrote:
Ilsns,

I think thst msny interesting people will be in heaven...




Moses, Michaelangelo, David, Newton, Boyle, Pascal, Shakespeare, Dante, Milton, Esther, Ruth, Deborah, and that's all the time I have for now.








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Choisya
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

My understanding is that when folks get into heaven (after all the repentance, absolution etc.) they become perfect and that all pain, disabilities, worries and woes will disappear. Revelations 21:4: 'And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away'. It is common to hear Christians say about those suffering from painful, terminal cancer that their suffering will end when they get to heaven. Cancer, disability etc. being imperfections, 'flaws', which the heavenly state will remove. The inference is that people will be made 'whole' again. There has been much literature and preaching about the idealistic state of people in heaven - Aquinas and the Medieval philosophers, for instance, argued that there would be no excrement in heaven.

I am not sure that anyone would 'choose' to spend eternity (assuming there is such a thing) in the company of the Borgias etc. Presumably even Hitler thought he was good and not evil and deserved a place in heaven.






Everyman wrote:


Choisya wrote:
I don't think that not liking the idea of heaven is necessarily a fascination with evil. For me it is a dislike of the idea of perfection everywhere, of sameness, the same universal values, even the perpetual beauty of paradise.

Your view of Heaven is very different from mine. Since no person is perfect, there will be no perfect people in heaven. They will have flaws, often very interesting flaws. The condition that gets them into heaven may be, depending on your theology (well, not yours, but the theology of someone who believes in God) that God has elected them no matter how flawed, or that they have genuinely repented of their sins prior to death, or that they have been given proper rites from a representative of Christ, or that they have genuinely tried to live a good life to the best of their ability. The only people who most or all Christian faiths believe will definitely not be in heaven are those who at the time of their death still deny Christ and do not seek repentance, and those who choose and embrace lives of evil.

Those who prefer to spend eternity in the company of such as the Borgias, Hitler, Stalin, certain Roman emperors, and their ilk will undoubtedly prefer not being in heaven.


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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

Which 'God is Dead' movement are you referring to here Everyman - the one headed by Americans in the 1960s? I remember that being reported in Time magazone and a popular saying in the UK at the time was 'God is not dead. He is alive and well but working on a less ambitious project.'




Everyman wrote:
He was the atheist whose most famous line (other than "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" ) is "God is Dead."

This isn't the place for an extended theological discussion (or is it?), but I think it's valuable to note that the "God is Dead" movement was not an atheist movement per se, but was saying that the God as envisioned throughout most of Christian history -- the wise bearded man sitting on a throne among the clouds with Christ sitting at his right hand -- was a defunct view of God, and needed to be replaced with some other concept of God.


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Choisya
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche - fresh eyes

Yes, that is true Ilana. He wanted to kill off the idea of our interest in God so that we would be free to look at things with fresh eyes. This is one of the best explanations I have come across about Nietzche's attitude toward God and religion and it accords with my own thinking:-

'Nietzsche is different from traditional philosophical thinkers in important ways. There is no rational order to the universe and all the values that exist were constructed by human beings. Behind them there is nothing - no Greek gods, no Christian God, no rational order - nothing. But this lack of a foundation does not have to be a disaster for people, though for many it surely will be. For those who don't need a supernatural Mommy or Daddy, who don't need a promise of an afterlife to give them hope or punish the evildoers who escape earthly justice, the recognition that God is dead is like a blank canvas. It is a freedom to become something new, different, creative--a freedom to be something without all the baggage of the past. An open sea. This is a tremendous responsibility and many will not be up to it; people rely on rules and authorities to tell them what to do, what to value, how to live. The people who eventually learn to create their lives anew will represent a new stage in human evolution.'

Nietzche's ideas are particularly opposed to those of fatalism - that everything is predestined, that man cannot change anything. Nowadays this is more a belief held by Muslims and Hindus than by Christians but in his day it was commonly believed that everything was pre-ordered according to the Bible, hence the belief that women were inferior, that you were born into a 'station' in life etc. When we have been reading Victorian literature here we have came across these views many times. As we read Milton's Paradise Lost we looked at the Calvinistic ideas of pre-destination which he rejected. Rather than being atheistic, Nietzche's views can also be seen as a 'wake-up' call to Christians of his day to throw off these stultifying ideas from the past but not necessarily to throw off a belief in God or gods.






IlanaSimons wrote:
You and Choisya have both cautioned me on the word "atheist" here. I did extend my comments on this line in the "More on Nietzsche" note, outside of this thread. You guys are right: He'd techincally be an agnostic. But his thrust was clear--to kill off our interest in a higher God. He wanted to show that any "meaning" that can matter to humans is human meaning.



Everyman wrote:
He was the atheist whose most famous line (other than "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" ) is "God is Dead."

This isn't the place for an extended theological discussion (or is it?), but I think it's valuable to note that the "God is Dead" movement was not an atheist movement per se, but was saying that the God as envisioned throughout most of Christian history -- the wise bearded man sitting on a throne among the clouds with Christ sitting at his right hand -- was a defunct view of God, and needed to be replaced with some other concept of God.





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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Nietzsche -- Aphorisms and Proverbs

Kathy, my point, exactly -- perhaps! :smileyvery-happy: Thanks for understanding?

KathyS wrote:
Peppermill, take these for a spin :smileywink:
~ http://www.willrogers.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius

Peppermill wrote:
...One place my stream of consciousness goes is to the role of aphorisms, proverbs, horoscopes, quotations, ... in literature and human communications. It seems to me that we are often so capable of putting our own spin or interpretations on these pithy sequences of words that we can often ascribe them meaning -- whether they have any or no. (Or maybe meaning is only in the ascribing.)

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

Okay, since you ask. It is the amazing idea that God in His mercy accepts all who come to Him through Christ no matter how bad they may be and that it is not our deeds but our faith in Christ that saves us.



Choisya wrote:
What is 'amazing grace' other than the song?




Laurel wrote:
I know. David actually committed adultery and murder. I believe in amazing grace. And thanks for reminding me of the musicians. Bach, Mendessohn, Handel. . . .



Choisya wrote:
Moses, Michaelangelo, David, Newton, Boyle, Pascal, Shakespeare, Dante, Milton, Esther, Ruth, Deborah, and that's all the time I have for now.

Gosh, at least three of those had pretty suspect lives Laurel - do you think they might get absolution/redemption or whatever it is, for their work/contribution to society? I used to have a musician friend who thought all the great musicians would get to heaven on this basis and my response was 'what a cacophony there would be!':smileyvery-happy:




Laurel wrote:


Nelsmom wrote:
Ilsns,

I think thst msny interesting people will be in heaven...




Moses, Michaelangelo, David, Newton, Boyle, Pascal, Shakespeare, Dante, Milton, Esther, Ruth, Deborah, and that's all the time I have for now.











"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Choisya
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

Thanks Laurel. That sounds a kinder idea than previous ones.




Laurel wrote:
Okay, since you ask. It is the amazing idea that God in His mercy accepts all who come to Him through Christ no matter how bad they may be and that it is not our deeds but our faith in Christ that saves us.



Choisya wrote:
What is 'amazing grace' other than the song?




Laurel wrote:
I know. David actually committed adultery and murder. I believe in amazing grace. And thanks for reminding me of the musicians. Bach, Mendessohn, Handel. . . .



Choisya wrote:
Moses, Michaelangelo, David, Newton, Boyle, Pascal, Shakespeare, Dante, Milton, Esther, Ruth, Deborah, and that's all the time I have for now.

Gosh, at least three of those had pretty suspect lives Laurel - do you think they might get absolution/redemption or whatever it is, for their work/contribution to society? I used to have a musician friend who thought all the great musicians would get to heaven on this basis and my response was 'what a cacophony there would be!':smileyvery-happy:




Laurel wrote:


Nelsmom wrote:
Ilsns,

I think thst msny interesting people will be in heaven...




Moses, Michaelangelo, David, Newton, Boyle, Pascal, Shakespeare, Dante, Milton, Esther, Ruth, Deborah, and that's all the time I have for now.














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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Nietzsche -- Aphorisms and Proverbs



Peppermill wrote:
Kathy, my point, exactly -- perhaps! :smileyvery-happy: Thanks for understanding?

KathyS wrote:
Peppermill, take these for a spin :smileywink:
~ http://www.willrogers.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius

Peppermill wrote:
...One place my stream of consciousness goes is to the role of aphorisms, proverbs, horoscopes, quotations, ... in literature and human communications. It seems to me that we are often so capable of putting our own spin or interpretations on these pithy sequences of words that we can often ascribe them meaning -- whether they have any or no. (Or maybe meaning is only in the ascribing.)




Yes, I understand....When we begin to understand we grow polite, happy, ingenuous. I believe someone by the name of ~Nietzsche~ said that! :smileyvery-happy:
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Nietzsche -- Aphorisms and Proverbs


KathyS wrote:
When we begin to understand we grow polite, happy, ingenuous. I believe someone by the name of ~Nietzsche~ said that! :smileyvery-happy:

Understand what? Sometimes when I begin to understand I grow more depressed. When, for example, I begin to understand that a politician has voted for a given measure because his wife got a large consulting contract from the company that benefits from the legislation.

"When ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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KathyS
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

Choisya wrote: I am not sure that anyone would 'choose' to spend eternity (assuming there is such a thing) in the company of the Borgias etc. Presumably even Hitler thought he was good and not evil and deserved a place in heaven
________________________
Choisya, without quoting from the Bible, because there would be too many, and I won't take quotes out of context when referencing this subject - only to say, in very simple terms, that only God knows what is in the hearts of mankind.

We can think and claim anything we choose...and be as good as can be; do as many good deeds as we can, but without the grace of God's salvation through Jesus Christ, there is no way on this side of God's green earth is anyone going to enter heaven.

Everything I know about my relationship with God is contained within those pages of the Bible. From beginning to end, it contains my faith. And I'll be perfectly honest with you and everyone here, unless you read the Bible, whether it's with faith, or as in a true form of study (or both - and it takes years), the concepts can and will elude most people and be taken out of context. The cross referencing alone is more than any other book I've ever seen. With learning comes understanding, and with this understanding your faith can be built. But by asking for that faith before entering the word of God, the words become clearer...but it is entirely up to the individual.

Kathy
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Choisya
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

Thanks a lot KathyS for your explanation of your faith but of course I cannot agree that study of the Bible requires faith. Not that I am a student of it but many non-believers are and have written expertly about it. There are a great many complex works of literature in the world that have been expertly dissected and cross-referenced. That those with faith and those without faith come to different conclusions a result of this dissection is only to be expected.





KathyS wrote:
Choisya wrote: I am not sure that anyone would 'choose' to spend eternity (assuming there is such a thing) in the company of the Borgias etc. Presumably even Hitler thought he was good and not evil and deserved a place in heaven
________________________
Choisya, without quoting from the Bible, because there would be too many, and I won't take quotes out of context when referencing this subject - only to say, in very simple terms, that only God knows what is in the hearts of mankind.

We can think and claim anything we choose...and be as good as can be; do as many good deeds as we can, but without the grace of God's salvation through Jesus Christ, there is no way on this side of God's green earth is anyone going to enter heaven.

Everything I know about my relationship with God is contained within those pages of the Bible. From beginning to end, it contains my faith. And I'll be perfectly honest with you and everyone here, unless you read the Bible, whether it's with faith, or as in a true form of study (or both - and it takes years), the concepts can and will elude most people and be taken out of context. The cross referencing alone is more than any other book I've ever seen. With learning comes understanding, and with this understanding your faith can be built. But by asking for that faith before entering the word of God, the words become clearer...but it is entirely up to the individual.

Kathy


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KathyS
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Nietzsche -- Aphorisms and Proverbs

[ Edited ]
There is only one good, that is knowledge; there is only one evil, that is ignorance Socrates

And good old boy Will said: Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.

Then Mark Twain remembers: When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years.

A MAN doesn't begin to attain wisdom until he recognizes that he is no longer indispensable. Adm. Richard E. Byrd

So, there still may be hope, yet! And *all* we have to do is apply the knowledge! Ugh! :smileyvery-happy:



Everyman wrote:

KathyS wrote:
When we begin to understand we grow polite, happy, ingenuous. I believe someone by the name of ~Nietzsche~ said that! :smileyvery-happy:

Understand what? Sometimes when I begin to understand I grow more depressed. When, for example, I begin to understand that a politician has voted for a given measure because his wife got a large consulting contract from the company that benefits from the legislation.

"When ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."



Message Edited by KathyS on 06-23-2007 02:22 PM
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KathyS
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

Choisya, I definately understand where you are coming from. We all have different eyes in which to view all of these books. The Bible as a history book, gives us much to debate over. And it will never stop being debated....for now.

The Bible, in one of its total concepts, is the story of 'mistakes' in history that keep repeating over and over....as are still being made throughout the ages. Learning from just that one concept, alone, is worth the reading....these people were human beings just like everyone us, none being perfect, not even the saints.....but what have we learned from repeating this history? The Bible tells you how to stop it....but the non-believer listener cannot hear it being spoken. Because it is written as the word of God, and the person reading it may or may not be an objective reader in their thoughts while reading/studying it.

I'm stumbling around here trying to say that the concepts become enlighting and meaningful only when you either go into the study of it with faith; or asking for it before you start to read; or be inspired and develop that faith along the way.....this faith *will* show you the *total* truth of its meaning.

But you have to ask God for that faith. I can't give it to you or anyone else. I can't give you the understanding, I can only share what I know. You don't have to be a believer to ask for that faith, that's what it's all about...you simply ask...no strings attached. All I ever asked for was to be given the eyes to see....I studied under the guidance of an organization called, BSF - Bible Study Fellowship....interdenominational...A very structured study....you never talked "religion", only about the Bible. You were placed in groups according to your own age, and with the same bible intellect. It's been 30 years since I had taken part in this organization, but here is the website if you're curious, it can explain more about what I'm trying to say - http://www.bsfinternational.org/

Kathy S.



Choisya wrote:
Thanks a lot KathyS for your explanation of your faith but of course I cannot agree that study of the Bible requires faith. Not that I am a student of it but many non-believers are and have written expertly about it. There are a great many complex works of literature in the world that have been expertly dissected and cross-referenced. That those with faith and those without faith come to different conclusions a result of this dissection is only to be expected.





KathyS wrote:
Choisya wrote: I am not sure that anyone would 'choose' to spend eternity (assuming there is such a thing) in the company of the Borgias etc. Presumably even Hitler thought he was good and not evil and deserved a place in heaven
________________________
Choisya, without quoting from the Bible, because there would be too many, and I won't take quotes out of context when referencing this subject - only to say, in very simple terms, that only God knows what is in the hearts of mankind.

We can think and claim anything we choose...and be as good as can be; do as many good deeds as we can, but without the grace of God's salvation through Jesus Christ, there is no way on this side of God's green earth is anyone going to enter heaven.

Everything I know about my relationship with God is contained within those pages of the Bible. From beginning to end, it contains my faith. And I'll be perfectly honest with you and everyone here, unless you read the Bible, whether it's with faith, or as in a true form of study (or both - and it takes years), the concepts can and will elude most people and be taken out of context. The cross referencing alone is more than any other book I've ever seen. With learning comes understanding, and with this understanding your faith can be built. But by asking for that faith before entering the word of God, the words become clearer...but it is entirely up to the individual.

Kathy





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Laurel
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

That's an excellent explanation, Kathy, and your group looks like a good one.



KathyS wrote:
Choisya, I definately understand where you are coming from. We all have different eyes in which to view all of these books. The Bible as a history book, gives us much to debate over. And it will never stop being debated....for now.

The Bible, in one of its total concepts, is the story of 'mistakes' in history that keep repeating over and over....as are still being made throughout the ages. Learning from just that one concept, alone, is worth the reading....these people were human beings just like everyone us, none being perfect, not even the saints.....but what have we learned from repeating this history? The Bible tells you how to stop it....but the non-believer listener cannot hear it being spoken. Because it is written as the word of God, and the person reading it may or may not be an objective reader in their thoughts while reading/studying it.

I'm stumbling around here trying to say that the concepts become enlighting and meaningful only when you either go into the study of it with faith; or asking for it before you start to read; or be inspired and develop that faith along the way.....this faith *will* show you the *total* truth of its meaning.

But you have to ask God for that faith. I can't give it to you or anyone else. I can't give you the understanding, I can only share what I know. You don't have to be a believer to ask for that faith, that's what it's all about...you simply ask...no strings attached. All I ever asked for was to be given the eyes to see....I studied under the guidance of an organization called, BSF - Bible Study Fellowship....interdenominational...A very structured study....you never talked "religion", only about the Bible. You were placed in groups according to your own age, and with the same bible intellect. It's been 30 years since I had taken part in this organization, but here is the website if you're curious, it can explain more about what I'm trying to say - http://www.bsfinternational.org/

Kathy S.



Choisya wrote:
Thanks a lot KathyS for your explanation of your faith but of course I cannot agree that study of the Bible requires faith. Not that I am a student of it but many non-believers are and have written expertly about it. There are a great many complex works of literature in the world that have been expertly dissected and cross-referenced. That those with faith and those without faith come to different conclusions a result of this dissection is only to be expected.





KathyS wrote:
Choisya wrote: I am not sure that anyone would 'choose' to spend eternity (assuming there is such a thing) in the company of the Borgias etc. Presumably even Hitler thought he was good and not evil and deserved a place in heaven
________________________
Choisya, without quoting from the Bible, because there would be too many, and I won't take quotes out of context when referencing this subject - only to say, in very simple terms, that only God knows what is in the hearts of mankind.

We can think and claim anything we choose...and be as good as can be; do as many good deeds as we can, but without the grace of God's salvation through Jesus Christ, there is no way on this side of God's green earth is anyone going to enter heaven.

Everything I know about my relationship with God is contained within those pages of the Bible. From beginning to end, it contains my faith. And I'll be perfectly honest with you and everyone here, unless you read the Bible, whether it's with faith, or as in a true form of study (or both - and it takes years), the concepts can and will elude most people and be taken out of context. The cross referencing alone is more than any other book I've ever seen. With learning comes understanding, and with this understanding your faith can be built. But by asking for that faith before entering the word of God, the words become clearer...but it is entirely up to the individual.

Kathy








"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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IlanaSimons
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To All Here

Hi--
I've gotten a lot of personal notes today from people saying "I'm exhausted!"
I want to send out a reminder to keep the group more centered on listening than preaching.
Too much talk from any one person does keep new voices out. Let's all listen to others as much as we direct them.
Thanks
Ilana



Ilana
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Registered: ‎01-27-2007
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

Kathy - This business of faith gets sort of tricky. Seems to me it means you accept without questioning - and that seems to preclude studying. In my view studying implies questioning. I can understand religion being based on faith, but accepting everything a book, which the Bible is and nothing more, without question is too much to ask.

Dan (Salty Dog)






KathyS wrote:
Choisya, I definately understand where you are coming from. We all have different eyes in which to view all of these books. The Bible as a history book, gives us much to debate over. And it will never stop being debated....for now.

The Bible, in one of its total concepts, is the story of 'mistakes' in history that keep repeating over and over....as are still being made throughout the ages. Learning from just that one concept, alone, is worth the reading....these people were human beings just like everyone us, none being perfect, not even the saints.....but what have we learned from repeating this history? The Bible tells you how to stop it....but the non-believer listener cannot hear it being spoken. Because it is written as the word of God, and the person reading it may or may not be an objective reader in their thoughts while reading/studying it.

I'm stumbling around here trying to say that the concepts become enlighting and meaningful only when you either go into the study of it with faith; or asking for it before you start to read; or be inspired and develop that faith along the way.....this faith *will* show you the *total* truth of its meaning.

But you have to ask God for that faith. I can't give it to you or anyone else. I can't give you the understanding, I can only share what I know. You don't have to be a believer to ask for that faith, that's what it's all about...you simply ask...no strings attached. All I ever asked for was to be given the eyes to see....I studied under the guidance of an organization called, BSF - Bible Study Fellowship....interdenominational...A very structured study....you never talked "religion", only about the Bible. You were placed in groups according to your own age, and with the same bible intellect. It's been 30 years since I had taken part in this organization, but here is the website if you're curious, it can explain more about what I'm trying to say - http://www.bsfinternational.org/

Kathy S.



Choisya wrote:
Thanks a lot KathyS for your explanation of your faith but of course I cannot agree that study of the Bible requires faith. Not that I am a student of it but many non-believers are and have written expertly about it. There are a great many complex works of literature in the world that have been expertly dissected and cross-referenced. That those with faith and those without faith come to different conclusions a result of this dissection is only to be expected.
Salty Dog