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Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things



KathyS wrote:
>I'm stumbling around here trying to say that the concepts become enlighting and meaningful only when you either go into the study of it with faith; or asking for it before you start to read; or be inspired and develop that faith along the way.....this faith *will* show you the *total* truth of its meaning.

You're not stumbling at all -- you did a great job.

Any sacred text -- the Bible or the Koran or the Upanishads or the Bhagavad Gita or Native American legends or whatever -- can of course be read as a purely intellectual exercise by a committed non-believer, but they will not be able to understand the full meaning of the text because they have chosen to close themselves off from that full meaning. It's like a person reading the score of a Wagner opera by reading only the names of the notes, ignoring the music they make. Sure, it can be done, and somebody can discuss the mathematical relationships between the notes, but there will be whole realm of meaning within the text that is completely closed to them.
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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foxycat
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

We're getting into a discussion of religion here, which I know will go nowhere, because there are so many shades of opinion and because faith is ingrained in some of us. We can debate religious differences for months. KathyS and Everyman are observant Christians, Choisya is, I believe, an atheist (please correct me if I'm wrong). I can really blow the lid off now by saying I'm a Jewish atheist Unitarian-Universalist humanist. :smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy:

I think we should concentrate on understanding what Nietzsche means and not whether we believe it's true. Or let's move on to some of his other ideas.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. --Oscar Wilde

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foxycat
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Wikipedia vs. Citizendium

I agree with Choisya that Wikipedia is terribly unreliable and sometimes libelous. Some wise folks answered with www.citizendium.com, which has 2 major differences. You must use your real name to make a contribution, and the entries are overseen by experts in the field; thus it's closer to a traditional encyclopedia. (Unfortunately Britannica wants an arm and two legs to use ITS site.) It hasn't been up a long time, and is incomplete, but worthwhile.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. --Oscar Wilde

Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things


foxycat wrote:
...Everyman [is an] observant Christian ...

It's a lot more complicated than that. Some Christians would acknowledge me as a Christian, some would call me a heretic. I am what I am. But what I am is too complicated to explain, even if I wanted to try, which frankly I don't, no offense intended.
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Wikipedia vs. Citizendium


foxycat wrote:
Some wise folks answered with www.citizendium.com, which has 2 major differences.

The correct cite is www.citizendium.org . Not .com
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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foxycat
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Wikipedia vs. Citizendium

[ Edited ]

Everyman wrote:

The correct cite is www.citizendium.org . Not .com




Thank you. A major goof

Message Edited by foxycat on 06-24-2007 12:53 AM
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. --Oscar Wilde

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foxycat
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Extreme Positions

This one's interesting, I think applying mostly to politics: “Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions.”



The pendulum swings back and forth but doesn't stay in the center too often or not for long. The French Revolution was followed by Napoleon; the hedonism of the 1960's was followed by a generation of kids who couldn't care less about politics. Conservative Republicans are followed by liberal Democrats; The answer to Czarist Russia was another form of totalitarianism, so-called "rule by the people."
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. --Oscar Wilde

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Choisya
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things

Thanks again Kathy~S - I'm afraid we must agree to disagree on this topic.



KathyS wrote:
Choisya, I definately understand where you are coming from. We all have different eyes in which to view all of these books. The Bible as a history book, gives us much to debate over. And it will never stop being debated....for now.

The Bible, in one of its total concepts, is the story of 'mistakes' in history that keep repeating over and over....as are still being made throughout the ages. Learning from just that one concept, alone, is worth the reading....these people were human beings just like everyone us, none being perfect, not even the saints.....but what have we learned from repeating this history? The Bible tells you how to stop it....but the non-believer listener cannot hear it being spoken. Because it is written as the word of God, and the person reading it may or may not be an objective reader in their thoughts while reading/studying it.

I'm stumbling around here trying to say that the concepts become enlighting and meaningful only when you either go into the study of it with faith; or asking for it before you start to read; or be inspired and develop that faith along the way.....this faith *will* show you the *total* truth of its meaning.

But you have to ask God for that faith. I can't give it to you or anyone else. I can't give you the understanding, I can only share what I know. You don't have to be a believer to ask for that faith, that's what it's all about...you simply ask...no strings attached. All I ever asked for was to be given the eyes to see....I studied under the guidance of an organization called, BSF - Bible Study Fellowship....interdenominational...A very structured study....you never talked "religion", only about the Bible. You were placed in groups according to your own age, and with the same bible intellect. It's been 30 years since I had taken part in this organization, but here is the website if you're curious, it can explain more about what I'm trying to say - http://www.bsfinternational.org/

Kathy S.



Choisya wrote:
Thanks a lot KathyS for your explanation of your faith but of course I cannot agree that study of the Bible requires faith. Not that I am a student of it but many non-believers are and have written expertly about it. There are a great many complex works of literature in the world that have been expertly dissected and cross-referenced. That those with faith and those without faith come to different conclusions a result of this dissection is only to be expected.





KathyS wrote:
Choisya wrote: I am not sure that anyone would 'choose' to spend eternity (assuming there is such a thing) in the company of the Borgias etc. Presumably even Hitler thought he was good and not evil and deserved a place in heaven
________________________
Choisya, without quoting from the Bible, because there would be too many, and I won't take quotes out of context when referencing this subject - only to say, in very simple terms, that only God knows what is in the hearts of mankind.

We can think and claim anything we choose...and be as good as can be; do as many good deeds as we can, but without the grace of God's salvation through Jesus Christ, there is no way on this side of God's green earth is anyone going to enter heaven.

Everything I know about my relationship with God is contained within those pages of the Bible. From beginning to end, it contains my faith. And I'll be perfectly honest with you and everyone here, unless you read the Bible, whether it's with faith, or as in a true form of study (or both - and it takes years), the concepts can and will elude most people and be taken out of context. The cross referencing alone is more than any other book I've ever seen. With learning comes understanding, and with this understanding your faith can be built. But by asking for that faith before entering the word of God, the words become clearer...but it is entirely up to the individual.

Kathy








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Choisya
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Re: Ilana : Wittgenstein in the News.

Ilana: You may be amused to know that Wittgenstein is in the News here. When one of our senior politicians refused a seat in the Cabinet this week he quoted Wittgenstein when asked for his reasons why: 'Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent'. A News commentator responded with another W quote: 'Never stay up on the barren heights of cleverness, but come down into the green valleys of silliness'!!




Choisya wrote:
Thanks again Kathy~S - I'm afraid we must agree to disagree on this topic.



KathyS wrote:
Choisya, I definately understand where you are coming from. We all have different eyes in which to view all of these books. The Bible as a history book, gives us much to debate over. And it will never stop being debated....for now.

The Bible, in one of its total concepts, is the story of 'mistakes' in history that keep repeating over and over....as are still being made throughout the ages. Learning from just that one concept, alone, is worth the reading....these people were human beings just like everyone us, none being perfect, not even the saints.....but what have we learned from repeating this history? The Bible tells you how to stop it....but the non-believer listener cannot hear it being spoken. Because it is written as the word of God, and the person reading it may or may not be an objective reader in their thoughts while reading/studying it.

I'm stumbling around here trying to say that the concepts become enlighting and meaningful only when you either go into the study of it with faith; or asking for it before you start to read; or be inspired and develop that faith along the way.....this faith *will* show you the *total* truth of its meaning.

But you have to ask God for that faith. I can't give it to you or anyone else. I can't give you the understanding, I can only share what I know. You don't have to be a believer to ask for that faith, that's what it's all about...you simply ask...no strings attached. All I ever asked for was to be given the eyes to see....I studied under the guidance of an organization called, BSF - Bible Study Fellowship....interdenominational...A very structured study....you never talked "religion", only about the Bible. You were placed in groups according to your own age, and with the same bible intellect. It's been 30 years since I had taken part in this organization, but here is the website if you're curious, it can explain more about what I'm trying to say - http://www.bsfinternational.org/

Kathy S.



Choisya wrote:
Thanks a lot KathyS for your explanation of your faith but of course I cannot agree that study of the Bible requires faith. Not that I am a student of it but many non-believers are and have written expertly about it. There are a great many complex works of literature in the world that have been expertly dissected and cross-referenced. That those with faith and those without faith come to different conclusions a result of this dissection is only to be expected.





KathyS wrote:
Choisya wrote: I am not sure that anyone would 'choose' to spend eternity (assuming there is such a thing) in the company of the Borgias etc. Presumably even Hitler thought he was good and not evil and deserved a place in heaven
________________________
Choisya, without quoting from the Bible, because there would be too many, and I won't take quotes out of context when referencing this subject - only to say, in very simple terms, that only God knows what is in the hearts of mankind.

We can think and claim anything we choose...and be as good as can be; do as many good deeds as we can, but without the grace of God's salvation through Jesus Christ, there is no way on this side of God's green earth is anyone going to enter heaven.

Everything I know about my relationship with God is contained within those pages of the Bible. From beginning to end, it contains my faith. And I'll be perfectly honest with you and everyone here, unless you read the Bible, whether it's with faith, or as in a true form of study (or both - and it takes years), the concepts can and will elude most people and be taken out of context. The cross referencing alone is more than any other book I've ever seen. With learning comes understanding, and with this understanding your faith can be built. But by asking for that faith before entering the word of God, the words become clearer...but it is entirely up to the individual.

Kathy











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IlanaSimons
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Re: Ilana : Wittgenstein in the News.

Yes--huge "thank you"s for bringing us new pastures for talk. We must come down to green valleys of silliness....well: now, at least...for a day or two.



Choisya wrote:
Ilana: You may be amused to know that Wittgenstein is in the News here. When one of our senior politicians refused a seat in the Cabinet this week he quoted Wittgenstein when asked for his reasons why: 'Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent'. A News commentator responded with another W quote: 'Never stay up on the barren heights of cleverness, but come down into the green valleys of silliness'




Ilana
Check out my book, here and visit my website, here.


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IlanaSimons
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Extreme Positions

Rochelle, Huge Kudos for moving on to a new quotation from Friday's post.
Extremes: I think this one is fascinating and psychologically astute. Why do you think we move like a pendulum?



foxycat wrote:
This one's interesting, I think applying mostly to politics: “Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions.”



The pendulum swings back and forth but doesn't stay in the center too often or not for long. The French Revolution was followed by Napoleon; the hedonism of the 1960's was followed by a generation of kids who couldn't care less about politics. Conservative Republicans are followed by liberal Democrats; The answer to Czarist Russia was another form of totalitarianism, so-called "rule by the people."





Ilana
Check out my book, here and visit my website, here.


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Choisya
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Re: Sorry KathyS!

I mistakenly copied your post about religion to my post to Ilana on Wittgenstein. Sorry!
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Choisya
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Re: To All Here

I don't think anyone has been preaching! I get fed up of these people who write to teacher complaining but who do not try to enter a discussion or to start another one (or end one) themselves! Let's all just talk trivia - romance, what we bought from the supermarket, what's on TV, let's make another interminable list of the books we like - why bother with a philosophical or any serious discussion at all! Above all, avoid politics, religion, sex, history, the Greeks, Great Books etc etc etc

I won't mention what 'exhausts' me and I won't be writing to the teacher to complain either!






IlanaSimons wrote:
Hi--
I've gotten a lot of personal notes today from people saying "I'm exhausted!"
I want to send out a reminder to keep the group more centered on listening than preaching.
Too much talk from any one person does keep new voices out. Let's all listen to others as much as we direct them.
Thanks
Ilana


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IlanaSimons
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Re: To All Here

There is no blame in my note. Everyone on this board has written to me at different times with requests like this.
My current group request is pretty simple: We should each try to give others the space for a voice. Some readers feel like they can't enter in, because the talk is too entrenched.



Choisya wrote:
I don't think anyone has been preaching! I get fed up of these people who write to teacher complaining but who do not try to enter a discussion or to start another one (or end one) themselves! Let's all just talk trivia - romance, what we bought from the supermarket, what's on TV, let's make another interminable list of the books we like - why bother with a philosophical or any serious discussion at all! Above all, avoid politics, religion, sex, history, the Greeks, Great Books etc etc etc

I won't mention what 'exhausts' me and I won't be writing to the teacher to complain either!






IlanaSimons wrote:
Hi--
I've gotten a lot of personal notes today from people saying "I'm exhausted!"
I want to send out a reminder to keep the group more centered on listening than preaching.
Too much talk from any one person does keep new voices out. Let's all listen to others as much as we direct them.
Thanks
Ilana








Ilana
Check out my book, here and visit my website, here.


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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things : Faith

Hi KathyS: I have looked at your post again this morning and would like to ask you something: If I said to you that you would understand Socialism better if you joined the Socialist Party of America, studied books by great Socialists because 'the concepts become enlighting and meaningful only when you go into the study of it with faith', would you go along with that idea?




KathyS wrote:
Choisya, I definately understand where you are coming from. We all have different eyes in which to view all of these books. The Bible as a history book, gives us much to debate over. And it will never stop being debated....for now.

The Bible, in one of its total concepts, is the story of 'mistakes' in history that keep repeating over and over....as are still being made throughout the ages. Learning from just that one concept, alone, is worth the reading....these people were human beings just like everyone us, none being perfect, not even the saints.....but what have we learned from repeating this history? The Bible tells you how to stop it....but the non-believer listener cannot hear it being spoken. Because it is written as the word of God, and the person reading it may or may not be an objective reader in their thoughts while reading/studying it.

I'm stumbling around here trying to say that the concepts become enlighting and meaningful only when you either go into the study of it with faith; or asking for it before you start to read; or be inspired and develop that faith along the way.....this faith *will* show you the *total* truth of its meaning.

But you have to ask God for that faith. I can't give it to you or anyone else. I can't give you the understanding, I can only share what I know. You don't have to be a believer to ask for that faith, that's what it's all about...you simply ask...no strings attached. All I ever asked for was to be given the eyes to see....I studied under the guidance of an organization called, BSF - Bible Study Fellowship....interdenominational...A very structured study....you never talked "religion", only about the Bible. You were placed in groups according to your own age, and with the same bible intellect. It's been 30 years since I had taken part in this organization, but here is the website if you're curious, it can explain more about what I'm trying to say - http://www.bsfinternational.org/

Kathy S.



Choisya wrote:
Thanks a lot KathyS for your explanation of your faith but of course I cannot agree that study of the Bible requires faith. Not that I am a student of it but many non-believers are and have written expertly about it. There are a great many complex works of literature in the world that have been expertly dissected and cross-referenced. That those with faith and those without faith come to different conclusions a result of this dissection is only to be expected.





KathyS wrote:
Choisya wrote: I am not sure that anyone would 'choose' to spend eternity (assuming there is such a thing) in the company of the Borgias etc. Presumably even Hitler thought he was good and not evil and deserved a place in heaven
________________________
Choisya, without quoting from the Bible, because there would be too many, and I won't take quotes out of context when referencing this subject - only to say, in very simple terms, that only God knows what is in the hearts of mankind.

We can think and claim anything we choose...and be as good as can be; do as many good deeds as we can, but without the grace of God's salvation through Jesus Christ, there is no way on this side of God's green earth is anyone going to enter heaven.

Everything I know about my relationship with God is contained within those pages of the Bible. From beginning to end, it contains my faith. And I'll be perfectly honest with you and everyone here, unless you read the Bible, whether it's with faith, or as in a true form of study (or both - and it takes years), the concepts can and will elude most people and be taken out of context. The cross referencing alone is more than any other book I've ever seen. With learning comes understanding, and with this understanding your faith can be built. But by asking for that faith before entering the word of God, the words become clearer...but it is entirely up to the individual.

Kathy








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Choisya
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Re: To All Here

I am sorry Ilana but it sounds like blame of Everyman and myself to me because it is only our series of posts that are silenced - this is the third instance. I have never written to you or any other Moderator with such a request. The only complaint about posts that I have made is when something has been posted that is personally abusive.

I just cannot see why there is no 'space' for other voices. All anyone needs to do is to click on Reply and post away, either on the topic already being discussed or on one of their choice. What do folks think Everyman or I would do - tell them to 'butt out'? I know I would be only too pleased to see other points of view expressed, no matter how controversial, and I think Everyman would feel the same. The other alternative is not to read anything we post, that way everyone would be safe from exhaustion.

I would also like to apologise again for the 'urinal' posts which have caused offence. Revisions to the system mean that I was unable to remove them or I would have done so. Indeed I would have removed all my posts on this thread if I could so that there would be lots more 'space'!




IlanaSimons wrote:
There is no blame in my note. Everyone on this board has written to me at different times with requests like this.
My current group request is pretty simple: We should each try to give others the space for a voice. Some readers feel like they can't enter in, because the talk is too entrenched.



Choisya wrote:
I don't think anyone has been preaching! I get fed up of these people who write to teacher complaining but who do not try to enter a discussion or to start another one (or end one) themselves! Let's all just talk trivia - romance, what we bought from the supermarket, what's on TV, let's make another interminable list of the books we like - why bother with a philosophical or any serious discussion at all! Above all, avoid politics, religion, sex, history, the Greeks, Great Books etc etc etc

I won't mention what 'exhausts' me and I won't be writing to the teacher to complain either!






IlanaSimons wrote:
Hi--
I've gotten a lot of personal notes today from people saying "I'm exhausted!"
I want to send out a reminder to keep the group more centered on listening than preaching.
Too much talk from any one person does keep new voices out. Let's all listen to others as much as we direct them.
Thanks
Ilana








Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: To All Here


IlanaSimons wrote:
There is no blame in my note. Everyone on this board has written to me at different times with requests like this.
My current group request is pretty simple: We should each try to give others the space for a voice. Some readers feel like they can't enter in, because the talk is too entrenched.

I'm sorry people feel that way but, after all, this isn't a class where you have to raise your hand to get a chance to speak.

In a classroom or group discussion, I agree, it's frustrating if two people are dominating a topic, because you have to wait for one of them to breathe to slip a word in edgewise. But that's not the case here. If a person has something to say, they can just type it in. No need to wait for "space" as you would in a face-to-face discussion.

I, too, would like to see more people participating in these discussions. Every perspective is of value. There are many new angles or approaches that could be added into the conversation. People need to just speak up. (Or should we say type up?) Nobody will bite their heads off! (C and I reserve that privilege for each other. :smileyhappy: )

If a person finds a discussion going on interminably and of no interest to them, it takes only tenths of a second to scroll down to the next message. Nobody is obligated to read anything they don't want to.

And if one topic get entrenched, anybody is free to just start another. That Choisya and I may be engaged in a vigorous discussion doesn't stop anybody else from starting another discussion.

Just for accuracy's sake, I don't think it's quite true to say that "everyone" has written to you with "requests like this." I haven't, and Choisya says she hasn't. I did write to you suggesting as a possible solution that you set up a separate place where extended discussions could go so they didn't dominate a topic for too long, which was not a complaint but an attempt to address complaints of some while still allowing ongoing discussions to continue without feeling the need to wait hours before responding to a post to give "space" for others to jump in.

The goal, I suggest, should be to encourage more reluctant posters to participate without muzzling more active posters. I feel that your post addressed the first half of that goal, but not the second. Can we find an approach that does both?
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: To All Here

Thanks for this post Everyman - I agree with every word. I must be feeling ill again:smileyhappy:




Everyman wrote:

IlanaSimons wrote:
There is no blame in my note. Everyone on this board has written to me at different times with requests like this.
My current group request is pretty simple: We should each try to give others the space for a voice. Some readers feel like they can't enter in, because the talk is too entrenched.

I'm sorry people feel that way but, after all, this isn't a class where you have to raise your hand to get a chance to speak.

In a classroom or group discussion, I agree, it's frustrating if two people are dominating a topic, because you have to wait for one of them to breathe to slip a word in edgewise. But that's not the case here. If a person has something to say, they can just type it in. No need to wait for "space" as you would in a face-to-face discussion.

I, too, would like to see more people participating in these discussions. Every perspective is of value. There are many new angles or approaches that could be added into the conversation. People need to just speak up. (Or should we say type up?) Nobody will bite their heads off! (C and I reserve that privilege for each other. :smileyhappy: )

If a person finds a discussion going on interminably and of no interest to them, it takes only tenths of a second to scroll down to the next message. Nobody is obligated to read anything they don't want to.

And if one topic get entrenched, anybody is free to just start another. That Choisya and I may be engaged in a vigorous discussion doesn't stop anybody else from starting another discussion.

Just for accuracy's sake, I don't think it's quite true to say that "everyone" has written to you with "requests like this." I haven't, and Choisya says she hasn't. I did write to you suggesting as a possible solution that you set up a separate place where extended discussions could go so they didn't dominate a topic for too long, which was not a complaint but an attempt to address complaints of some while still allowing ongoing discussions to continue without feeling the need to wait hours before responding to a post to give "space" for others to jump in.

The goal, I suggest, should be to encourage more reluctant posters to participate without muzzling more active posters. I feel that your post addressed the first half of that goal, but not the second. Can we find an approach that does both?


Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Ilana's Journal Week 5: Friedrich Nietzsche On Many Things : Faith



Choisya wrote:
Hi KathyS: I have looked at your post again this morning and would like to ask you something: If I said to you that you would understand Socialism better if you joined the Socialist Party of America, studied books by great Socialists because 'the concepts become enlighting and meaningful only when you go into the study of it with faith', would you go along with that idea?

I certainly can't speak for Kathy, but it seems pretty obvious to me that you have a different experience of any book if you read it from the point of view of one who believes in the underlying concepts and reads it to enrich their understanding of the subject than if you read it from the point of view of one who rejects the underlying concept but reads it as an intellectual exercise.

We see that on a regular basis. Environmentalists and industrialists tend to get very different things out of Gore's Inconvenient Truth. Catholics and Muslims get very different things out of reading the Koran. A former member of the RAF and a former Luftwaffe ace and still Nazi believer would get very different things from reading Churchill's The Second World War. An avid fox hunter and a member of PETA will take quite different messages from Sassoon's Memoirs of a Fox Hunting Man. If you and I both read the Spring issue of the Fabian Review we are likely to approach that reading with quite different viewpoints in mind, and get out of it quite different things; you will probably be looking for points of agreement; I will more likely be looking for factual inaccuracies and logical inconsistencies. And so on.
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
Distinguished Wordsmith
Everyman
Posts: 9,216
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: To All Here



Choisya wrote:
Thanks for this post Everyman - I agree with every word. I must be feeling ill again:smileyhappy:


Go to sleep. You'll get over it. I need you healthy and vigorous for our next discussion, whatever it may be on. I find no pleasure in crushing an unworthy opponent. :smileyvery-happy:
_______________
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.