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IlanaSimons
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Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

[ Edited ]

A friend of mine who thinks psychoanalysis is useless asked me why I was training to be a clinical therapist.  He knows I'm also cynical about psychoanalysis.  For one, I don't think analysis is always helpful.  And, I don't think it's so specia--or categorically different than any other type of conversation you have with a friend.  But I do think that psychotherapy fills a specific need in our fast-paced, often superficial lives. 

 

I think that therapy is useful because it's a regularly scheduled hour for intimate conversation, which is something a lot of us wouldn't otherwise get.  Good therapy gives people a regular interval for intense dialogue, and through it, you can develop a relationship with someone who really knows you, who believes in you and becomes an internalized support team. 

 

I told my friend that therapy is useful if only because it's a scheduled timeslot for good talk, which a lot of us crave today.  I think you can take that further and say that a similar description applies to literature.  Literature offers a conversation about the world that we don't usually get in small talk.  Good books offer sustained, deep discourse.  They're a relatively private refuge in which language operates in a different way than it does elsewhere.

 

Books and therapy are special, rich conversations.  I also think therapy and books are siblings in the world of language because both of them are practices that tend to value observation over bias or quick judgment.  That is, both therapy and literature help us practice observing the world longer than normal, without assessing it too quickly. 

 

I do think that's a chief value of psychotherapy: A good therapist helps you name your complexities without the shame, or the need to edit, that you might feel outside the therapist's office.  Simply speaking openly and boldly--and having someone calmly and accurately reflect what you're saying--builds confidence.  In ordinary life, people often just engage the sides of us that fit into their own agendas, or they judge us quickly.  A therapist can help us talk about ourselves and not run from what's actually happening inside.  Having these honest discussions--even without any other "cure"--is constructive. 

 

Along a similar line, good books present complex situations without boiling them down to a simple plotline or moral imperative.  Think of Oedipus.  In that Greek play, a man plans his life with good intentions but commits grave sins (killing his dad, romancing his mom) anyway.  A reader doesn't finish that story with some simple moral judgment about Oedipus's character; instead, the book offers language for what it means to be a complex, flawed human being.  In this sense, good books beg us to observe reality without our normal reactivity to so-called sins or other rote situations. 

 

I do think that's a great skill: learning to snuff bias and observe for a longer time than feels natural.  That's what the novelist Virginia Woolf wrote in her diary weeks before her death.  As she was writing a diary entry, she started to make fun of some women she'd seen that day, but then she stopped herself.  "Observe," she wrote, as a moral imperative in her diary, "Observe perpetually."  When she felt her own self-protective instinct taking hold--her need to satirize those strangers she'd seen on the street--she stopped herself.  She muzzled her more reactive emotions and forced herself to simply transcribe life in all its strange detail.  She was a great writer because she could favor the information-gathering stage for longer than most people do.  Doing it really means shutting down the emotions we normally resort to when people or situations unsettle us.

 

Along the same line, consider what Sigmund Freud said happens in dreams.  Freud said that dreams are a space in which we say "yes" to everything and "no" to nothing: "Falling asleep," he wrote in The Interpretation of Dreams, "involves a renunciation of...the voluntary guidance of the flow of ideas.  ...The dream...reconciles, without hesitation, the worst contradictions; it admits impossibilities; it...shows us as ethically and morally obtuse.  ...Dreams are quite incapable of expressing the alternative either-or.  [Instead,] the dream...carries out all [of its] possibilities, which are almost mutually exclusive.  [Those] alternative[s] are to be treated as equal and connected by an ‘and.'"

That is, the dream doesn't say, "I can walk but can't fly"; instead, it lets you fly.  It refuses to logically cut one thing from another.  A dream, Freud said, is life before conscious judgment.

 

So, I do think that books offer a special space for deep conversation, in which things happen without as much judgment as normally happens.  And I think that one good practice we exercise through reading is observing life without a native reactivity.  I think that both literary and psychotherapeutic studies help us observe life while snuffing our knee-jerk emotional responses.

 

Of course it's not just literary minds who practice sustained, nonjudgmental observation.  Well-trained scientists are great at this too: They might start their experiments with hypotheses, but it's then their job to suspend judgment until stuff reveals itself, even against what the scientist hoped for or predicted.

-Ilana
Check out my book.
Visit my Website, here

Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 07-29-2008 09:49 PM



Ilana
Check out my book, here and visit my website, here.


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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

Someone to sit down with for an hour and talk non-judgmentally.

 

Isn't that what grandparents used to be about?

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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation


IlanaSimons wrote:

A friend of mine who thinks psychoanalysis is useless asked me why I was training to be a clinical therapist.  He knows I'm also cynical about psychoanalysis.  For one, I don't think analysis is always helpful.  And, I don't think it's so specia--or categorically different than any other type of conversation you have with a friend.  But I do think that psychotherapy fills a specific need in our fast-paced, often superficial lives. 

 

I think that therapy is useful because it's a regularly scheduled hour for intimate conversation, which is something a lot of us wouldn't otherwise get.  Good therapy gives people a regular interval for intense dialogue, and through it, you can develop a relationship with someone who really knows you, who believes in you and becomes an internalized support team. 

 

I told my friend that therapy is useful if only because it's a scheduled timeslot for good talk, which a lot of us crave today.  I think you can take that further and say that a similar description applies to literature.  Literature offers a conversation about the world that we don't usually get in small talk.  Good books offer sustained, deep discourse.  They're a relatively private refuge in which language operates in a different way than it does elsewhere.

 

Books and therapy are special, rich conversations.  I also think therapy and books are siblings in the world of language because both of them are practices that tend to value observation over bias or quick judgment.  That is, both therapy and literature help us practice observing the world longer than normal, without assessing it too quickly. 

 

I do think that's a chief value of psychotherapy: A good therapist helps you name your complexities without the shame, or the need to edit, that you might feel outside the therapist's office.  Simply speaking openly and boldly--and having someone calmly and accurately reflect what you're saying--builds confidence.  In ordinary life, people often just engage the sides of us that fit into their own agendas, or they judge us quickly.  A therapist can help us talk about ourselves and not run from what's actually happening inside.  Having these honest discussions--even without any other "cure"--is constructive. 

 

Along a similar line, good books present complex situations without boiling them down to a simple plotline or moral imperative.  Think of Oedipus.  In that Greek play, a man plans his life with good intentions but commits grave sins (killing his dad, romancing his mom) anyway.  A reader doesn't finish that story with some simple moral judgment about Oedipus's character; instead, the book offers language for what it means to be a complex, flawed human being.  In this sense, good books beg us to observe reality without our normal reactivity to so-called sins or other rote situations. 

 

I do think that's a great skill: learning to snuff bias and observe for a longer time than feels natural.  That's what the novelist Virginia Woolf wrote in her diary weeks before her death.  As she was writing a diary entry, she started to make fun of some women she'd seen that day, but then she stopped herself.  "Observe," she wrote, as a moral imperative in her diary, "Observe perpetually."  When she felt her own self-protective instinct taking hold--her need to satirize those strangers she'd seen on the street--she stopped herself.  She muzzled her more reactive emotions and forced herself to simply transcribe life in all its strange detail.  She was a great writer because she could favor the information-gathering stage for longer than most people do.  Doing it really means shutting down the emotions we normally resort to when people or situations unsettle us.

 

Along the same line, consider what Sigmund Freud said happens in dreams.  Freud said that dreams are a space in which we say "yes" to everything and "no" to nothing: "Falling asleep," he wrote in The Interpretation of Dreams, "involves a renunciation of...the voluntary guidance of the flow of ideas.  ...The dream...reconciles, without hesitation, the worst contradictions; it admits impossibilities; it...shows us as ethically and morally obtuse.  ...Dreams are quite incapable of expressing the alternative either-or.  [Instead,] the dream...carries out all [of its] possibilities, which are almost mutually exclusive.  [Those] alternative[s] are to be treated as equal and connected by an ‘and.'"

That is, the dream doesn't say, "I can walk but can't fly"; instead, it lets you fly.  It refuses to logically cut one thing from another.  A dream, Freud said, is life before conscious judgment.

 

So, I do think that books offer a special space for deep conversation, in which things happen without as much judgment as normally happens.  And I think that one good practice we exercise through reading is observing life without a native reactivity.  I think that both literary and psychotherapeutic studies help us observe life while snuffing our knee-jerk emotional responses.

 

Of course it's not just literary minds who practice sustained, nonjudgmental observation.  Well-trained scientists are great at this too: They might start their experiments with hypotheses, but it's then their job to suspend judgment until stuff reveals itself, even against what the scientist hoped for or predicted.

-Ilana
Check out my book.
Visit my Website, here

Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 07-29-2008 09:49 PM

:smileysad:

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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

Ilana,
Very nicely put, the value of books and therapy.
I still value my own training as a therapist. Being an analytical idea person, the great thing I learned was how to examine my emotions. Abstraction, quick thinking, the defended barrier against error, impenetrable logical defenses, all the intellectual armor of the rhetorician, speechmaker, seminar authority, footnote expert, and on and on...the intellectual bric-a-brac of the "authority", the autocrat of the breakfast table...or any table. The instant default defense against new "authority", innovation or contradiction. I learned the tools of the scholarly academic trade and knew how to sharpen my knives.
In that weekly hour (or 50 minutes!)...I soon learned the first thing my therapist often asked of me was quite simply, "How are you feeling?" Sometimes on my way to therapy I'd think, Damn, I haven't a thing I want to talk about. I'm bored with this stuff. I can't remember what I said last time. I don't see the sense of this, where's the organization of these feelings and thoughts, images and words? But of course once I began to talk honestly from the heart about how I felt about this moment, this day, this week past, or some dream, fear, hope....bit of news in the world...whatever, connections, revelations began to emerge. I have no doubt about the worthiness of this project for myself, in removing writing blocks, in going deeper into the unknown, in stretching my expressiveness to articulate feelings and thoughts, memory connections and insights. I was very fortunate to have two different therapists who were quite powerful in working with writers and artists and intellectuals. It's a great gift to have this kind of exchange for at least some period of time.


I think you're on a great track for combining the wisdom of literature and creative therapy in your Woolf book and other interests merging the arts with clinical therapy. This can be a really rewarding journey. In some sense as you are suggesting, the experience of life wisdom from literature can open up the universe of your own expanded consciousness. The incredible diversity and contradictoriness of life's richness becomes a pleasure to open to as a project of what Keats called "negative capability" (in specific reference to Shakespeare's genius)...that equanimity in the tolerance of simultaneously perceived difference as a gestalt...a sustained, structurally counterbalanced vision of human motive and affect. And to think...this process might begin with a simple open-hearted question, how are you feeling today?


[in a follow up post...I want to talk a little bit about milieu therapy, psychodynamic work done in those other 23 hours in the day...but I'm short of time this evening. Tempus fugit.]

Jim Stallings: (Peruse published fiction ):
http://www.jimstallings.com

All books available through B&N also.
"Literature is humanity's deep gossip."
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

Jim,
What you say always rings so clear to me. 
I like your addition here--that one more thing that therapy and literature share is an appreciation in how hard it is to nail down an idea, and how explorations of ideas need to ramble a bit to go deep. Both practices include some joy in investigating the unknown. 
I also agree that it's hard to describe or know how my own time as a patient in therapy has changed me.  There have been some clear benefits (beyond the simple pleasure of going): I think I'm a bit more stable knowing someone understands me very deeply and is on my side.
 I'd really like to hear your further thoughts about therapy.

Fiction4Sale wrote:

Ilana,
Very nicely put, the value of books and therapy.
I still value my own training as a therapist. Being an analytical idea person, the great thing I learned was how to examine my emotions. Abstraction, quick thinking, the defended barrier against error, impenetrable logical defenses, all the intellectual armor of the rhetorician, speechmaker, seminar authority, footnote expert, and on and on...the intellectual bric-a-brac of the "authority", the autocrat of the breakfast table...or any table. The instant default defense against new "authority", innovation or contradiction. I learned the tools of the scholarly academic trade and knew how to sharpen my knives.
In that weekly hour (or 50 minutes!)...I soon learned the first thing my therapist often asked of me was quite simply, "How are you feeling?" Sometimes on my way to therapy I'd think, Damn, I haven't a thing I want to talk about. I'm bored with this stuff. I can't remember what I said last time. I don't see the sense of this, where's the organization of these feelings and thoughts, images and words? But of course once I began to talk honestly from the heart about how I felt about this moment, this day, this week past, or some dream, fear, hope....bit of news in the world...whatever, connections, revelations began to emerge. I have no doubt about the worthiness of this project for myself, in removing writing blocks, in going deeper into the unknown, in stretching my expressiveness to articulate feelings and thoughts, memory connections and insights. I was very fortunate to have two different therapists who were quite powerful in working with writers and artists and intellectuals. It's a great gift to have this kind of exchange for at least some period of time.


I think you're on a great track for combining the wisdom of literature and creative therapy in your Woolf book and other interests merging the arts with clinical therapy. This can be a really rewarding journey. In some sense as you are suggesting, the experience of life wisdom from literature can open up the universe of your own expanded consciousness. The incredible diversity and contradictoriness of life's richness becomes a pleasure to open to as a project of what Keats called "negative capability" (in specific reference to Shakespeare's genius)...that equanimity in the tolerance of simultaneously perceived difference as a gestalt...a sustained, structurally counterbalanced vision of human motive and affect. And to think...this process might begin with a simple open-hearted question, how are you feeling today?


[in a follow up post...I want to talk a little bit about milieu therapy, psychodynamic work done in those other 23 hours in the day...but I'm short of time this evening. Tempus fugit.]


 




Ilana
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

Normally we think of therapy as the hour of one on one therapy. There's also another approach that's group or community or school centered. I had the great opportunity as a cultural anthropologist to participate in the latter as well. I wanted to mention briefly here a simple thing I was taught by one of the great American innovators in this school-home milieu therapy world by Dr. Albert Trieshman, now deceased sadly, who wrote a very practical, insightful work called "The Other 23 Hours." It's a classic in the field of milieu therapy work. In the "milieu" or environment of a school-home community of emotionally disturbed kids, for example, the attempt is made to integrate on an equal, shared basis the teaching, child care and therapy. While obviously adults have their specialties, the goal is to share those skills in teams and share the stresses and succeses in the common spaces with the children. So, in a sense the rich interaction of all these talented adults and children (and family members at times) come together in a sum greater than the often broken parts of individual psyches. That's a quick sketch of a milileu therapy community.

 

Now, Al Trieshman, after years of running such a home and doing child care, therapy and teaching shoulder to shoulder with other adults came to the general conclusion there are four types of milieu therapists.

1. The group handler: gifted at controlling groups of people, keeping them together, noticing boundaries, safety issues, a powerful leader and center of gravity

2. The soul searcher: the kind of person who tends to relate to one child at a time, often in a very insightful, inner way.

3. The activity guru: the person who quickly relates with others through all sorts of games, physical sports, board games, interactive, structured situations.

4. The pied piper: the magical person who has a charm over the "patients"...they get enthusiasm and control and a following and seem to have the gift of taking people on "journey"

 

Al said once in a great while he'd spot a milieu therapist who did all four. But in general he found most childcare therapists who work with emotionally disturbed kids have maybe one primary and perhaps a secondary skill. Without a good group handler in the milieu, especially during transitions (actual movements of kids from one place to another, from living space to school e.g.) chaos can erupt. Transitions illustrate the weakest link can rule. Transitions also cause stress that reduces all people to their worst selves (their least in control selves). Consider the stress of moving for example on so called "normal" people. Or life passages, marriages, deaths, separations of all kinds....these liminal, betwixt and between transitions (an aspect of rites de passage) cause often enormous stress that can cause breakdowns in "normal" behavior. So, it's really key to have a good group handler around. They're the kind of forceful leader who can accurately send a kid in trouble to a time out from the group and still keep the group moving.

 

The soul searcher is really a kind of opposite and maybe the kind of person we think of as ideal for one on one therapy. They enjoy deep conversations and want to go into things with great sympathy and sensitivity, a soft voice, a pleasant manner. Meanwhile, the rest of the group might be burning down the cottage! Al's experience was that a soul searcher can be taught to be a better group handler, and vice versa, but a true soul searcher type person is never ultimately comfortable with the tension of "herding troubled cats." (my own picturing there)!

 

And so on, the activity guru is a person comfortable gifted at keeping kids entranced and open to learning rules and a sense of fairness... through the machinations of various kinds of games. It's a kind of group handling, but narrower and always focused through or mediated through some kind of structured "game". Very valuable person.

 

And the pied piper, a fairly rare type, yet I've seen many in action myself. These wonderful people seem to contain an inner child or magical person within who simply shines with irresistible energy at whatever "project" they're into. They have that special charisma that draws children to them. They quite effortlessly create a spell of safety and fun around them. However, at times, this order can break down when the kids gradually lose interest...and go wandering off on their own journeys! That's when the keen eye of a group handler needs to be in the milieu.

 

So, ask yourself, if you were in a community of difficult children, or just in life itself (which can be pretty crazy and wild), which of the types are you? Me, well, I was primarily a soul seacher but a pretty good (but nervous) group handler. I wasn't an activity or game type therapist and only in a few situations was I a pied piper. Too quickly whatever "magic" I had evaporated into control issues and I was back to group handling.

 

Just a few thoughts on milieu therapy. Be glad to expand on any of these issues. I think there are general lessons in life and literature given these general types of personalities but I haven't taken this study very far as yet.

 

 

Jim Stallings: (Peruse published fiction ):
http://www.jimstallings.com

All books available through B&N also.
"Literature is humanity's deep gossip."
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

Jim,

Your analogy (connected to my efforts and decisions last week) is not lost on me.  Thanks a lot for this--I do get it.

 

So, yeah, like you, I think I'm a soul searcher who tries hard at group handler skills, especially when I'm teaching. 

I admire the pied piper, who I envision to be like a quirky artist-guru.  He's like the juggler who keeps kids enthralled at a party.  Often socially inept, he's tuned into his skill and wins people over who have sympathy for what he does.

 

I know a few men who are activity gurus.  My dad.  A few others.  They seem to have lower appetites for emotion, so keep the group rolling through games and activities.  My friend moves from dominoes to the race track to dinner and the movies etc..  Never any downtime.  He finds peace by avoiding the inside.

 

I'll think more about these categories.

Thanks for this.


Fiction4Sale wrote:

Normally we think of therapy as the hour of one on one therapy. There's also another approach that's group or community or school centered. I had the great opportunity as a cultural anthropologist to participate in the latter as well. I wanted to mention briefly here a simple thing I was taught by one of the great American innovators in this school-home milieu therapy world by Dr. Albert Trieshman, now deceased sadly, who wrote a very practical, insightful work called "The Other 23 Hours." It's a classic in the field of milieu therapy work. In the "milieu" or environment of a school-home community of emotionally disturbed kids, for example, the attempt is made to integrate on an equal, shared basis the teaching, child care and therapy. While obviously adults have their specialties, the goal is to share those skills in teams and share the stresses and succeses in the common spaces with the children. So, in a sense the rich interaction of all these talented adults and children (and family members at times) come together in a sum greater than the often broken parts of individual psyches. That's a quick sketch of a milileu therapy community.

 

Now, Al Trieshman, after years of running such a home and doing child care, therapy and teaching shoulder to shoulder with other adults came to the general conclusion there are four types of milieu therapists.

1. The group handler: gifted at controlling groups of people, keeping them together, noticing boundaries, safety issues, a powerful leader and center of gravity

2. The soul searcher: the kind of person who tends to relate to one child at a time, often in a very insightful, inner way.

3. The activity guru: the person who quickly relates with others through all sorts of games, physical sports, board games, interactive, structured situations.

4. The pied piper: the magical person who has a charm over the "patients"...they get enthusiasm and control and a following and seem to have the gift of taking people on "journey"

 

Al said once in a great while he'd spot a milieu therapist who did all four. But in general he found most childcare therapists who work with emotionally disturbed kids have maybe one primary and perhaps a secondary skill. Without a good group handler in the milieu, especially during transitions (actual movements of kids from one place to another, from living space to school e.g.) chaos can erupt. Transitions illustrate the weakest link can rule. Transitions also cause stress that reduces all people to their worst selves (their least in control selves). Consider the stress of moving for example on so called "normal" people. Or life passages, marriages, deaths, separations of all kinds....these liminal, betwixt and between transitions (an aspect of rites de passage) cause often enormous stress that can cause breakdowns in "normal" behavior. So, it's really key to have a good group handler around. They're the kind of forceful leader who can accurately send a kid in trouble to a time out from the group and still keep the group moving.

 

The soul searcher is really a kind of opposite and maybe the kind of person we think of as ideal for one on one therapy. They enjoy deep conversations and want to go into things with great sympathy and sensitivity, a soft voice, a pleasant manner. Meanwhile, the rest of the group might be burning down the cottage! Al's experience was that a soul searcher can be taught to be a better group handler, and vice versa, but a true soul searcher type person is never ultimately comfortable with the tension of "herding troubled cats." (my own picturing there)!

 

And so on, the activity guru is a person comfortable gifted at keeping kids entranced and open to learning rules and a sense of fairness... through the machinations of various kinds of games. It's a kind of group handling, but narrower and always focused through or mediated through some kind of structured "game". Very valuable person.

 

And the pied piper, a fairly rare type, yet I've seen many in action myself. These wonderful people seem to contain an inner child or magical person within who simply shines with irresistible energy at whatever "project" they're into. They have that special charisma that draws children to them. They quite effortlessly create a spell of safety and fun around them. However, at times, this order can break down when the kids gradually lose interest...and go wandering off on their own journeys! That's when the keen eye of a group handler needs to be in the milieu.

 

So, ask yourself, if you were in a community of difficult children, or just in life itself (which can be pretty crazy and wild), which of the types are you? Me, well, I was primarily a soul seacher but a pretty good (but nervous) group handler. I wasn't an activity or game type therapist and only in a few situations was I a pied piper. Too quickly whatever "magic" I had evaporated into control issues and I was back to group handling.

 

Just a few thoughts on milieu therapy. Be glad to expand on any of these issues. I think there are general lessons in life and literature given these general types of personalities but I haven't taken this study very far as yet.

 

 


 




Ilana
Check out my book, here and visit my website, here.


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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

[ Edited ]

Ilana,

 

I'm posting this tonight, right after watching a Larry King episode.   Guests discussed, in part, the role of the observation.  Guests agreed, for example, that simply asking yourself "who is this person who is depressed?" will change our brain physically, and in turn, change our state of mind.  Guest, Dean Radin, also stated that not only does observing ourselves change us, but other objects of our observation are changed by our observation.

 

I'm going to check out Dean Radin's blog, Entangled Minds, here:  http://deanradin.blogspot.com/

 

His book, Conscious Universe, is available here:  http://www.harpercollins.com/book/buy.aspx?isbn13=9780062515025

 

Also, I'm going to check out Candace Pert's website here: http://www.candacepert.com/biography.html  

 

From her website:  Dr. Candace Pert is best known for her opiate receptor, endorphin and peptide research showing that our brain, glands, and immune system are in constant communication through the "molecules of emotion."

 

She is the author of the book Molecules of Emotion.  Available through B&N here: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Molecules-of-Emotion/Candace-B-Pert/e/9780684831879/

 

tgem

 

 

 

   

Message Edited by tgem on 08-02-2008 10:27 PM
Message Edited by tgem on 08-02-2008 10:28 PM
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

[ Edited ]

Okay, it's time to keep trying to use the hyperlink tool since it was changed.  A bio for Dean Radin is here .

 

Very odd:  it looks like it's going to work, it turns the text blue, and underlines it, but then I'm not able to link with the site after I post.

 

I'll try once more here .

 

It kind of worked that time.  I don't seem to be able to do it using paste, I have to type the url in the appropriate space. 

 

Thanks for your help Everyman.  And readers, for bearing with me.

 

tgem

 

 

 

 

 

Message Edited by tgem on 08-02-2008 10:47 PM
Message Edited by tgem on 08-02-2008 10:50 PM
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

the second one works.

thanks for the links, tgem.

 

 


tgem wrote:

Okay, it's time to keep trying to use the hyperlink tool since it was changed.  A bio for Dean Radin is here .

 

Very odd:  it looks like it's going to work, it turns the text blue, and underlines it, but then I'm not able to link with the site after I post.

 

I'll try once more here .

 

It kind of worked that time.  I don't seem to be able to do it using paste, I have to type the url in the appropriate space. 

 

Thanks for your help Everyman.  And readers, for bearing with me.

 

tgem

 

 

 

 

 

Message Edited by tgem on 08-02-2008 10:47 PM
Message Edited by tgem on 08-02-2008 10:50 PM

 




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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

Ilana -- not sure whether this is the best place for this post (or even whether anywhere is!), but it looked closest.

 

 

Just had an interesting experience.  Over lunch my girls, who co-teach in a small private school, were doing some sort of record on one of their students.  To make a short story even shorter, the had gotten a request from a "Lcensed Mewdical Health Counselor," a Ph.D in Child and Adult Psychotherapy, which said that he was doing a "partial to comprehensive intellectual, academic achievement, neurocogtnitive, behavioral and personality assessment"for her daugher.  

 

He sent them each a BASC-2 Teacher Rating Scales - Child TRS-C, with 139 questions.  

 

Are you at all familiar with this concept and this form>?  It seemed to them irrelevant to the child's needs, and much of it just makework (Eats thngs that are not food -- what's the point of that?  What does it tell a psychotherapist that I sometimes, when bored, used to eat little balls of paper when I was in elementary school??)

 

The reality is that all this child really needs is a family.  She's a neat kid, having some academic but not social problems in school, with nothing wrong with her that a stable family who supported her education wouldn't take care of.   But a psychotherapist can't provide that, and one wonders how the BASC is going to help him figure that out.

 

Does all this make sense to you, and is this likely to be a useful process for the child?

 

I know you can't answer specifically becasue you don't know the child, but you're smart and know your therapy, so I'm pretty sure you can say something useful here!

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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

Everyman, is it possible that the tests are being done to assess whether or not the child needs some sort of special education program? I know alot of school districts require significant amounts of documentation since they have to be financially responsible for providing services a child may require. Just a thought. If the child has any kind of special needs, having this documentation will assist her also later in life. However, if she really doesn't but gets labeled as such, that will hinder her throughout her school career.
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Everyman
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

This isn't the school requesting the assessment; it's being done by the parents.  The child is enrolled in a small private school, and has never been felt to need special ed assessment.

 


debbook wrote:
Everyman, is it possible that the tests are being done to assess whether or not the child needs some sort of special education program? I know alot of school districts require significant amounts of documentation since they have to be financially responsible for providing services a child may require. Just a thought. If the child has any kind of special needs, having this documentation will assist her also later in life. However, if she really doesn't but gets labeled as such, that will hinder her throughout her school career.

 

 

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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation


Everyman wrote:

This isn't the school requesting the assessment; it's being done by the parents.  The child is enrolled in a small private school, and has never been felt to need special ed assessment.

 


debbook wrote:
Everyman, is it possible that the tests are being done to assess whether or not the child needs some sort of special education program? I know alot of school districts require significant amounts of documentation since they have to be financially responsible for providing services a child may require. Just a thought. If the child has any kind of special needs, having this documentation will assist her also later in life. However, if she really doesn't but gets labeled as such, that will hinder her throughout her school career.

 

 


I used to work as a child therapist in a residential program and also in a short-term acute care psychiatric facility for children and teens. The number of parents that seemed to want something to be wrong with their child, when all doctors would state otherwise, was unbelievable. It sounds like the problem here lies with the parents and not the child.

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TiggerBear
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation


Everyman wrote:

This isn't the school requesting the assessment; it's being done by the parents.  The child is enrolled in a small private school, and has never been felt to need special ed assessment.

 


debbook wrote:
Everyman, is it possible that the tests are being done to assess whether or not the child needs some sort of special education program? I know alot of school districts require significant amounts of documentation since they have to be financially responsible for providing services a child may require. Just a thought. If the child has any kind of special needs, having this documentation will assist her also later in life. However, if she really doesn't but gets labeled as such, that will hinder her throughout her school career.

 

 


A lot of schools are now using this as a cover their butts.

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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation


Everyman wrote:

Ilana -- not sure whether this is the best place for this post (or even whether anywhere is!), but it looked closest.

 

 

Just had an interesting experience.  Over lunch my girls, who co-teach in a small private school, were doing some sort of record on one of their students.  To make a short story even shorter, the had gotten a request from a "Licensed Mewdical Health Counselor," a Ph.D in Child and Adult Psychotherapy, which said that he was doing a "partial to comprehensive intellectual, academic achievement, neurocogtnitive, behavioral and personality assessment"for her daugher.  

 

He sent them each a BASC-2 Teacher Rating Scales - Child TRS-C, with 139 questions.  

 

Are you at all familiar with this concept and this form>?  It seemed to them irrelevant to the child's needs, and much of it just makework (Eats thngs that are not food -- what's the point of that?  What does it tell a psychotherapist that I sometimes, when bored, used to eat little balls of paper when I was in elementary school??)

 

The reality is that all this child really needs is a family.  She's a neat kid, having some academic but not social problems in school, with nothing wrong with her that a stable family who supported her education wouldn't take care of.   But a psychotherapist can't provide that, and one wonders how the BASC is going to help him figure that out.

 

Does all this make sense to you, and is this likely to be a useful process for the child?

 

I know you can't answer specifically becasue you don't know the child, but you're smart and know your therapy, so I'm pretty sure you can say something useful here!


You haven't given anything to evaluate...by making a statement such as, "making a short story even shorter"...just giving your own evalutations.  How does one come to any kind of conclusions with this synopsis being so personal and general, by you?  Your realities may differ from both the childs, the parents, and the psychotherapist's.  You can't relate other's habits or choices, to your own.  And can't expect anyone, other than the people involved, to make an evaluation.

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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation


Everyman wrote:

Ilana -- not sure whether this is the best place for this post (or even whether anywhere is!), but it looked closest.

 

 

Just had an interesting experience.  Over lunch my girls, who co-teach in a small private school, were doing some sort of record on one of their students.  To make a short story even shorter, the had gotten a request from a "Lcensed Mewdical Health Counselor," a Ph.D in Child and Adult Psychotherapy, which said that he was doing a "partial to comprehensive intellectual, academic achievement, neurocogtnitive, behavioral and personality assessment"for her daugher.  

 

He sent them each a BASC-2 Teacher Rating Scales - Child TRS-C, with 139 questions.  

 

Are you at all familiar with this concept and this form>?  It seemed to them irrelevant to the child's needs, and much of it just makework (Eats thngs that are not food -- what's the point of that?  What does it tell a psychotherapist that I sometimes, when bored, used to eat little balls of paper when I was in elementary school??)

 

The reality is that all this child really needs is a family.  She's a neat kid, having some academic but not social problems in school, with nothing wrong with her that a stable family who supported her education wouldn't take care of.   But a psychotherapist can't provide that, and one wonders how the BASC is going to help him figure that out.

 

Does all this make sense to you, and is this likely to be a useful process for the child?

 

I know you can't answer specifically becasue you don't know the child, but you're smart and know your therapy, so I'm pretty sure you can say something useful here!


 
There are many, many kids who are being declared "disabled".  This entitles them to many advantages.  Sometimes the parents can get financial subsidies.  Once labeled disabled they are entitled to untimed tests, among other things.  I once heard this referred to as a form of affirmative action.  We know so many kids who have been labeled that I finally asked my daughter if she wanted an evaluation too!  It's not an even-playing field when she's the only kid who has to get her homework in on time, has to finish tests in the allotted time, etc.  We know one kid who got into Brandeis by getting a "learning disabled" diagnosis.  After one year he was mainstreamed, graduated with a degree from Brandeis and is now happily teaching high school.  
 
I have a friend who was a director of a day-care center.  She said one of her biggest problems was parents who would pressure her for letters saying that their kids were learning disabled.  They wanted government money.
 
BTW, my son, as a psychiatrist, is constantly being pressured to write letters so that patients can collect disability payments.  He said it's a difficult situation because he feels that the patients would do better if they had to work.  But if they do have a diagnosis of "depression" he feels he has to write the letter.  
 
I'm not sure any of this applies to these parents but disability fraud is the new welfare fraud.  I know 4 people who are basically able-bodied and function but are receiving disability checks, and I don't know that many people! 

 

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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

I don't know enough about the tests or the kid (as Kathy said) to judge this situation.  But I think you're basically asking if I think therapists provide something specific and needed. (I'm thinking of your post comparing counselors and grandparents.)  Although I am a pretty cynical therapist-in-training, I still do think that therapists have a worthwhile place in our world.  Psychologists have discovered interesting correlations between behavior and personality--and they can offer needed support, even to people with good-intentioned families.
 

Everyman wrote:

Ilana -- not sure whether this is the best place for this post (or even whether anywhere is!), but it looked closest.

 

 

Just had an interesting experience.  Over lunch my girls, who co-teach in a small private school, were doing some sort of record on one of their students.  To make a short story even shorter, the had gotten a request from a "Lcensed Mewdical Health Counselor," a Ph.D in Child and Adult Psychotherapy, which said that he was doing a "partial to comprehensive intellectual, academic achievement, neurocogtnitive, behavioral and personality assessment"for her daugher.  

 

He sent them each a BASC-2 Teacher Rating Scales - Child TRS-C, with 139 questions.  

 

Are you at all familiar with this concept and this form>?  It seemed to them irrelevant to the child's needs, and much of it just makework (Eats thngs that are not food -- what's the point of that?  What does it tell a psychotherapist that I sometimes, when bored, used to eat little balls of paper when I was in elementary school??)

 

The reality is that all this child really needs is a family.  She's a neat kid, having some academic but not social problems in school, with nothing wrong with her that a stable family who supported her education wouldn't take care of.   But a psychotherapist can't provide that, and one wonders how the BASC is going to help him figure that out.

 

Does all this make sense to you, and is this likely to be a useful process for the child?

 

I know you can't answer specifically becasue you don't know the child, but you're smart and know your therapy, so I'm pretty sure you can say something useful here!


 




Ilana
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Everyman
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

Have you seen that particular questionnaire?  If so, do you have any thoughts about it, what it's intended to tell the therapist, what sort of condition or suspected condition it would be used to try to diagnose?

 


IlanaSimons wrote:
I don't know enough about the tests or the kid (as Kathy said) to judge this situation.  But I think you're basically asking if I think therapists provide something specific and needed. (I'm thinking of your post comparing counselors and grandparents.)  Although I am a pretty cynical therapist-in-training, I still do think that therapists have a worthwhile place in our world.  Psychologists have discovered interesting correlations between behavior and personality--and they can offer needed support, even to people with good-intentioned families.
 

Everyman wrote:

Ilana -- not sure whether this is the best place for this post (or even whether anywhere is!), but it looked closest.

 

 

Just had an interesting experience.  Over lunch my girls, who co-teach in a small private school, were doing some sort of record on one of their students.  To make a short story even shorter, the had gotten a request from a "Lcensed Mewdical Health Counselor," a Ph.D in Child and Adult Psychotherapy, which said that he was doing a "partial to comprehensive intellectual, academic achievement, neurocogtnitive, behavioral and personality assessment"for her daugher.  

 

He sent them each a BASC-2 Teacher Rating Scales - Child TRS-C, with 139 questions.  

 

Are you at all familiar with this concept and this form>?  It seemed to them irrelevant to the child's needs, and much of it just makework (Eats thngs that are not food -- what's the point of that?  What does it tell a psychotherapist that I sometimes, when bored, used to eat little balls of paper when I was in elementary school??)

 

The reality is that all this child really needs is a family.  She's a neat kid, having some academic but not social problems in school, with nothing wrong with her that a stable family who supported her education wouldn't take care of.   But a psychotherapist can't provide that, and one wonders how the BASC is going to help him figure that out.

 

Does all this make sense to you, and is this likely to be a useful process for the child?

 

I know you can't answer specifically becasue you don't know the child, but you're smart and know your therapy, so I'm pretty sure you can say something useful here!


 


 

 

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IlanaSimons
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Re: Ilana's Journal Week 57: Psychotherapy and Literature as Practices in Observation

I don't know it.  I just gave it a quick google search--and now I'm interested.  So I'll write more if I have more thoughts.  Am in travel, getting home tomorrow...

 


Everyman wrote:

Have you seen that particular questionnaire?  If so, do you have any thoughts about it, what it's intended to tell the therapist, what sort of condition or suspected condition it would be used to try to diagnose?

 


IlanaSimons wrote:
I don't know enough about the tests or the kid (as Kathy said) to judge this situation.  But I think you're basically asking if I think therapists provide something specific and needed. (I'm thinking of your post comparing counselors and grandparents.)  Although I am a pretty cynical therapist-in-training, I still do think that therapists have a worthwhile place in our world.  Psychologists have discovered interesting correlations between behavior and personality--and they can offer needed support, even to people with good-intentioned families.

Everyman wrote:

Ilana -- not sure whether this is the best place for this post (or even whether anywhere is!), but it looked closest.

 

 

Just had an interesting experience.  Over lunch my girls, who co-teach in a small private school, were doing some sort of record on one of their students.  To make a short story even shorter, the had gotten a request from a "Lcensed Mewdical Health Counselor," a Ph.D in Child and Adult Psychotherapy, which said that he was doing a "partial to comprehensive intellectual, academic achievement, neurocogtnitive, behavioral and personality assessment"for her daugher.  

 

He sent them each a BASC-2 Teacher Rating Scales - Child TRS-C, with 139 questions.  

 

Are you at all familiar with this concept and this form>?  It seemed to them irrelevant to the child's needs, and much of it just makework (Eats thngs that are not food -- what's the point of that?  What does it tell a psychotherapist that I sometimes, when bored, used to eat little balls of paper when I was in elementary school??)

 

The reality is that all this child really needs is a family.  She's a neat kid, having some academic but not social problems in school, with nothing wrong with her that a stable family who supported her education wouldn't take care of.   But a psychotherapist can't provide that, and one wonders how the BASC is going to help him figure that out.

 

Does all this make sense to you, and is this likely to be a useful process for the child?

 

I know you can't answer specifically becasue you don't know the child, but you're smart and know your therapy, so I'm pretty sure you can say something useful here!


 


 

 


 




Ilana
Check out my book, here and visit my website, here.