Week 74: Jungian-Inspired Personality Test: Are you a Re-Inventor or a Cooperator?

[Timbuktu2]

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IlanaSimons wrote:

Thanks for the compliment, because I've felt as if my tires were in the mud this year.

I try to pursue what I desire but am almost too responsive to what others tell me to do.

I've really loved your discussion this week. (I've spent the last 30 hours trying to write the blog post for tomorrow (!) so haven't been able to respond to the interesting conversation you, Kate, and Kathy have been having.) I have been reading it all, and you've sparked lots of ideas for me.

One little thing here about creativity, which is also in tomorrow's post (and I know you know a lot about this field; so add and edit as necessary): For charting creativity, psychologists often test "range of relevance" in people's thinking. When given a word prompt, and then asked to associate to that word, creative people exhibit a wide range of relevance: They think up highly unusual and even seemingly inappropriate connections to the prompt word. Rigid thinkers, on the other hand, tend to come up with more popular, or frequently given, responses. Creative folk tend to offer more responses, too. So they are able to cull from many sources in thinking of solutions to problems. Ideally, a smart thinker throw a wide initial net for her ideas, and is then able to sort those ideas for viability.

right?

yeah!

yeah!

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Timbuktu2 wrote:
I just realized, the one who can best answer how to make dreams come true is Ilana!  How on earth do you accomplish all you do?  Do you have a strict schedule or do you go with the "flow"?  

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Timbuktu2 wrote:
I just realized, the one who can best answer how to make dreams come true is Ilana!  How on earth do you accomplish all you do?  Do you have a strict schedule or do you go with the "flow"?  

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Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 12-01-2008 04:57 PM

 

 

That's fascinating Ilana.  Maybe I do have a touch of creativity because my classmates are always saying that I make unusual connections.  I just never thought of that as creativity in that nothing is "created". LOL!

I also think it's interesting that you've been working for 30 hours.  That's the way my husband works, and our daughter.  Drives me nuts.  I'm always aiming for some kind of structure and control over time, some predictablity.  My husband never has a problem staying up all night to do ... whatever.  He gets so caught up in the task.  Our youngest is exactly the same way.  I was never sure whether or not I should interfere.  In fifth grade she stayed up till 4 am finishing a book.  I was so worried I forced to her to write a quick ending and go to sleep.  The next day she told me the teacher was thrilled with the book but asked what happened to the last page?  Oh the guilt!  She came home from school today and went straight to sleep.  I know she'll be up all night painting.  Is this in-born?  Don't you get tired?  I guess this is the famous "flow" we're talking about but as a mom, I want to keep her well and rested!  

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[KathyS]

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Katelyn wrote:

I am going to be slavishly conformist this morning and go back to the original topic: whether one prefers being a cooperator or a re-inventor. I am thinking that we haven’t really exhausted the topic yet, so I am going proceed into the forest …

 

I relate to both the re-inventor and the cooperator themes.  I value personal expressiveness, but I don’t like to create things in a vacuum.  If I am writing something I like to read as well, not necessarily something similar to what I am writing, but something complementary that stimulates me, puts the ideas I am in contemplating in contact with other ideas.  Sometimes this may lead to too much divergence and whatever I am working on doesn't’t cohere; other times it leads to a novel approach.

 

I value what others have written although I am sometimes intimidated a bit. There is so much beauty in the world that one did not author, that is outside of oneself.  Sometimes I want to feel a more intimate relationship to such beauty, to add something of my own.  Intellectually I do this increasingly in cooperation mode; building on what someone has already done can be a rich and rewarding experience.  If my sentences are crisp and sharp and yet say something that I feel is reasonably significant, this makes me happy.

 

There are times when my sentences “catch fire” and take me in an unexpected direction that surprises me; this is one of my favorite experiences. The novel seems to appear all by itself.  It is similar to what Timbuktu described in one of her earlier posts when she talked about “flow” & the work of that University Chicago professor Csikszentmihalyi -- break through experiences come through deep immersion with a topic.

What I do seems so fragmentary however. I have only vague goals or plans; I think this is true for many people. I am usually preoccupied with my obligations that I work only sporadically on things that are more meaningful to me. I wonder how one can change this; not abandon ones obligations but not allow them to crowd out the life that is more meaningful. How do people actively try to shape the life of their dreams?

Note to Kathy: I am hoping more talk on this board might cheer you up; sometimes the body heals faster when you are distracted by something.

Kate

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Kate, everyone. 

I'm fine. I don't have gas, or kidney stones, or panic attacks...just hot flashes, which I haven't had in years.  I was half joking with Tim---about that, because I do know these kinds of moments will pass. But these hot flashes are driving me nuts.  I had to wean myself off of the meds, on advice from my Drs.  Physically, I"m  okay, the main problem is in my head. 

I've realized, too, this week, that I'm susceptible to my own writing, as I know I am to other's.  I've thought about this a lot today.  When I write, I can get issues to the surface, but then I have to deal with them.  Things and words can trigger responses in me.  That's how I write those poems.

I write about what I feel, and those feelings compound more feelings, at times.  Depends on my moods.  I can back away from issues, in real life,  but I think I've bottled up so many this month, I've become depressed these last few days. When I read what I write,  this sometimes makes me susceptible to feeling feelings I don't want to feel.  I hope this makes sense.

For some reason writing to this current topic, relating to these stats of this test, made me feel like I was being boxed into someone I'm not.  Or don't want to be, at times.  It triggered an angry moment.  I don't like being depressed, it does upset me when I can't always put my finger on it.  And it really upsets me that I write in anger.

Kate, the word you used, boss, struck something inside of me, about these men on our HO board, who deemed themselves my bosses.  They really aren't, because we are governed by the people who live here.  These board members are not representing these people the way everyone wants them too.   There are legal actions, at this moment, against what they have been doing.  None of this has to do with me, only that I've been caught in the middle of all of these emotions that this HO board created for our community.  I tried, in my own way, to stay neutral and resolve it.  It backfired.  I don't hate these board members, but it came out that way, in what I wrote.  I hate what they've done to these people.

 I hurt not because I was "fired", but I feel as though I let these people down in some way.  I felt I could have done more, but I didn't know how, other than edit the slanderous remarks from these articles by these board members.  I get angry with myself.  I was trying to serve the board, the people, my friends, and myself.  I can't win  because I'm caught in the middle of it all..  I feel like I've been put into some place I can't get out of.  I blame myself,  because I feel  I should have been able to  handle these things differently.  Rationally, I couldn't do anything differently than I did.  I took a moral ground.  It's all I know to do.  Feeling helpless is just the result of having my bluff called.  I have to consider the source.

Even though I'm tired, I'm going to our social club's party tonight, because I feel I need to.  I love laughter, and this group is the best for that.  I can leave when I want to.  Tomorrow is our golf club luncheon party.  At our last one, I was asked to go into the board room, by the president of our HO board, which left me a blubbering idiot (not in front of the board!)  Now, tomorrow, I hope to get that bad taste out of my mouth.  I have bigger fish to fry, taller mountains to climb, and a host of chapters to write!

Kathy

p.s. 

Sorry, again, for that rant.  This board gets to hear my guts spill out....I've buried them, now, so you don't have to look at the mess!    If you don't hear from me for a while, it's because I have a feeling my brain will need recharging.

[Timbuktu2]

Ilana, it's 4 am and I woke up to find an incredible painting on the kitchen table.  Thanks for sharing how you make your dreams come true.  Talent plus incredibly hard work, who would have thought?  LOL!  I went to sleep (at my usual early hour) with a new understanding, that this is par for the course.  I'm not going to fight it anymore.  You see, I really do not understand creative drive.  I can't imagine preferring work to sleep.  But it thrills me to see that my daughter has this kind of drive.  Throughout high school, when other parents were trying to get their kids to work, I've been trying to get her to sleep.  It was hard to get sympathy for this problem!  And now, I look at that painting on the table, and I see the realization of her dream, rather than her lack of sleep!  Time to let her go and watch what happens.  

[IlanaSimons]

That's a pretty beautiful ode from mother to daughter.  You allow her her inner world.

Though I know it does make sense to temper it too: Sometimes she does need your protectiveness, I'm sure.

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Timbuktu2 wrote:
Ilana, it's 4 am and I woke up to find an incredible painting on the kitchen table.  Thanks for sharing how you make your dreams come true.  Talent plus incredibly hard work, who would have thought?  LOL!  I went to sleep (at my usual early hour) with a new understanding, that this is par for the course.  I'm not going to fight it anymore.  You see, I really do not understand creative drive.  I can't imagine preferring work to sleep.  But it thrills me to see that my daughter has this kind of drive.  Throughout high school, when other parents were trying to get their kids to work, I've been trying to get her to sleep.  It was hard to get sympathy for this problem!  And now, I look at that painting on the table, and I see the realization of her dream, rather than her lack of sleep!  Time to let her go and watch what happens.  

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[Timbuktu2]

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Katelyn wrote:

I totally agree with you in that we never really create anything in a vacuum, but when we start to work on something we can either use what we have already assimulated and woven into our network of ideas or we can actually seek out additional sources.  The later was what I was talking about.  Writing can send us out in the world (or into the library) to find answers to questions that we are just beginning to frame.  It is this active seeking that I was thinking of, the little "arrows" that send us seeking outside ourself.

There is a lot of discourse written about orginality in both modern and post-modern commentary, but I am talking about 'originality' in the everyday sense (perhaps a muddled notion).  The more complex a work of art is I think it has a better change of being truly original as no one would have thought about combining things in exactly the same way. Also I don't really think we even have discrete 'things' to combine; our experience of anything is almost guaranteed to be unique in some respects as it is embedded in an entirely different temporaty flow (had a different past and projects a different future).   

Bottom line: maybe we ultimately agree.  I think we are always influenced by others as Illana expressed in her thread about writing and conversations.  Maybe you were being more precise than I was so it seemed like we disagreed. I'd love to know your definition of orginality, and your thoughts around it.  Is anything original?  Does it matter/is it beside the point?  What does matter?  What makes a great work of art?  What if anything is unique about a particular person.  I suppose too original and uniqueness are not exactly the same, although they are strongly related.  Original seems to suggest one stood at the orgin of something, ushered it into being.  Fingerprints are unique, but not original (at least not in an everyday sense) so I like your fingerprint example.

I think it is very wonderful that you are seeing echos of different writers in writers what you read. It takes a lot of skill to do that.  I haven't read a lot of the Great Books (yet). I also am not at the point where I can organize my life sufficiently to go after what I want. .. there is always the "golden handcuffs" of my job and the constant layoffs don't motivate me to be particularly exploratory.  I try, but I only succeed a little, which means I fail a little bit too.

Maybe if I hang out here, I will catch some of your (and other's) enthusiasm and gain some insight about how to not let things get in the way of what I want. I think I have already to some degree (so thanks! I can totally visualize you emmerging from your Great Books classes you head full of interesting and complex ideas).  My friends in the 3-D world help a lot, but sometimes we get in ruts.  We come to know each other so well that our personalities seem 'fixed' (even if they are not) and we lose grasp of what is possible. We have to not only change but overcome the escape velocity of each others' expectations...nevertheless friends are invaluable.

Kate

PS: I am sorry about your parents.  Death (like feeling sick) is particularly hard to deal with, especially compared to the trials and tribulations of interoffice politics, which I talk about a lot. I am sorry you had to go through that, especially with both parents so close together. I imagine that would be life changing.  I am glad you had the strength and the will to make really positive changes.

 

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Kate, I love what you said about others expectations and needing to break out.   I really relate to that need.   Seeing new possibilities.  Have you begun your journaling course yet?  

 

As horrible as the loss of my parents was, and it really, really was/is horrible,  I think it freed me a bit.  When I said I don't need to justify my choices anymore, I think part of what I meant was, to my parents.  As the parent of grown children I can see the difficulty on the other side as well.  It's a complicated business.

 

This whole discussion has triggered a lot of thought about creativity.  I really don't like labels and putting people in cubbyholes, so I don't.  But last night I started going through all of the people I know and a pattern developed.  A divide between creative types and, I hate to say "uncreative" but I suppose that's the best word. The people in my class, I think, for the most part, are not creative.  When I found them I was struck by how much I felt in synch.  I'd never been in a group of people where I felt this before.   Yet, the one person I was really drawn to comes from a family of writers.  She left the program in part, because the group had no appreciation for James Joyce.  Instead, she went to Ireland with a writer's group!    She wants to spend her time writing.  I have a lot of admiration for her.  I really think I'm drawn to people who have what I don't.    It's amazing how, at this point in my life, I'm seeing things I never saw before.  Thank you!

 

[Timbuktu2]

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IlanaSimons wrote:

Thanks for the compliment, because I've felt as if my tires were in the mud this year.

I try to pursue what I desire but am almost too responsive to what others tell me to do.

I've really loved your discussion this week. (I've spent the last 30 hours trying to write the blog post for tomorrow (!) so haven't been able to respond to the interesting conversation you, Kate, and Kathy have been having.) I have been reading it all, and you've sparked lots of ideas for me.

One little thing here about creativity, which is also in tomorrow's post (and I know you know a lot about this field; so add and edit as necessary): For charting creativity, psychologists often test "range of relevance" in people's thinking. When given a word prompt, and then asked to associate to that word, creative people exhibit a wide range of relevance: They think up highly unusual and even seemingly inappropriate connections to the prompt word. Rigid thinkers, on the other hand, tend to come up with more popular, or frequently given, responses. Creative folk tend to offer more responses, too. So they are able to cull from many sources in thinking of solutions to problems. Ideally, a smart thinker throw a wide initial net for her ideas, and is then able to sort those ideas for viability.

right?

yeah!

yeah!

---

Timbuktu2 wrote:
I just realized, the one who can best answer how to make dreams come true is Ilana!  How on earth do you accomplish all you do?  Do you have a strict schedule or do you go with the "flow"?  

---

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Timbuktu2 wrote:
I just realized, the one who can best answer how to make dreams come true is Ilana!  How on earth do you accomplish all you do?  Do you have a strict schedule or do you go with the "flow"?  

---

Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 12-01-2008 04:57 PM

 

 

 

I'm wondering how you are too responsive to other people, Ilana.  Do you mean in your writing?  In how you spend your time?  Are you trying to please others or are you too open to others ideas and suggestions?  Is it what we talked about, being sympathetic to an idea before judging it?  Rejecting yourself as Trilling said?   

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[IlanaSimons]

I mean that positive feedback feels like food, shelter, and sleep for me.  I often need it.  I don't know how some writers are able to create in a vacuum and still feel rooted to the Earth.

So when I submit stuff to editors, I'll do almost anything in the world that they want me to do, if it means the chance of finding an audience.  I see myself as about 1/10 of any project I do.  The other 9/10's comes from the changes other people suggest, which might make my initial idea more sensible to others.

(I think bigger artists have more self-direction.)

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Timbuktu2 wrote:

I'm wondering how you are too responsive to other people, Ilana.  Do you mean in your writing?  In how you spend your time?  Are you trying to please others or are you too open to others ideas and suggestions?  Is it what we talked about, being sympathetic to an idea before judging it?  Rejecting yourself as Trilling said?   

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[Timbuktu2]

Thank you so much for this Ilana.  This explanation was totally unexpected and is so true and obvious about the creative drive that I can't believe how blind I've been to it.   How wonderful it is that you're able to  understand, I think that's an uncommon ability.

[KathyS]

I -

One of those tires was here, and even with chains on, it looked pretty good to me.

Here's a riddle for you (anyone).  Actually, it's a song.  If you get bored, I have 33 more where this came from.  Getting in the holiday spirit, sort of speak. 

Name this tune.

The apartment of 2 psychiatrists = ?

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IlanaSimons wrote:

Thanks for the compliment, because I've felt as if my tires were in the mud this year.

[Katelyn]

Timbuktu,

    I loved what you wrote here! The only reason I have delayed in responding is that I have a presentation at 7:00 AM tomorrow and I just started making slides today.  I noticed I got the pairings wrong (Mark Twain erroneously paired with Erasmus), but I am glad I did because now I will remember it better.

You described things in a lively and memorable way that I think will stick with me.  I love the differences in society described here on land and at sea and how it relates to the natural "goodness" of man vs. the necessary evil of society based on the Social Contract.  I hope to be back tomorrow to comment more.  Rosseau fits in with Illana's theme of insane heros doesn't he?  Well, I guess he's not insane exactly but a little off center, neurotic, & somewhat irresponsible...not so much in his theories, but in his personal life.

I am not sure exactly how I will use these new found facts/interpretations you offered but I revel in knowing them, and I am sure I will use them someday.

I wonder  if Moby Dick could be used to illustrate the same concept.  Maybe not so neatly (Note: I never finished the book).

My mother loved Don Quixote and had a wooden statue of him when I was a small child. I read the book in honors Spanish in high school, but I don't remember it well. I should reread it in English.  Being so much older now, I bet it would be an entirely new book.

Thanks for this post and the one preceding it*. I enjoyed them.

Kate

*I liked your concept of art combining insight with emotion..that is a conception that can go a long way.

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Timbuktu2 wrote:

Mark Twain went with Rousseau, Cervantes with Erasmus.  I'd have to check my notes to do the question justice.    Basically, fromthe top of my head, Rousseau said that inequalities between individuals would not exist in a state of nature.  It's society and ownership of property that create inequalities between men.  So, when Huck and Jim are on the river, outside of society, they are equals.  As soon as they touch land, whenever they come into contact with society, there is corruption and evil.  Rousseau thought that man was naturally compassionate.

Don Quixote is the most complex and challenging book, just like life.  Just when i think I've pinned it down, it slips away, just like life.  I had some notes from a lecture on In Praise of Folly that I have to go over but it reminded me a bit of DQ, the fool.  The hero or the fool?  Then there were some quotes from the New Testament about Christ preferring the fool to the learned man.  There are so many threads in this book.  It's like Shakespeare in that you can read it over and over and each time read it differently.  Problem is, it's endless, over l000 pages!   Definitely worth it!

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Message Edited by Katelyn on 12-02-2008 09:19 PM

[Katelyn]

HI Kathy,

    I am glad you appeared today and are feeling better physically.  I read your message several times and it was good to hear your voice; even though it is a "virtual" one I can hear you. 

I am replying in a short message because I need to finish something for work by 7:00 AM tomorrow. I do understand how you feel about the group of men who bulldozed you and the members of your larger community. Like you, I think in general I relate to men better than women, but I know what it is like to be angry at certain male  ways of thinking seem that seem so foreign.  I think neither of us hate men, but the asymetrical distribution of power in some situations.  And no one loves institutionalized stupidity (regardless of the sex of those involved).

Talk to you soon,

Kate

[Timbuktu2]

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Katelyn wrote:

Timbuktu,

    I loved what you wrote here! The only reason I have delayed in responding is that I have a presentation at 7:00 AM tomorrow and I just started making slides today.  I noticed I got the pairings wrong (Mark Twain erroneously paired with Erasmus), but I am glad I did because now I will remember it better.

You described things in a lively and memorable way that I think will stick with me.  I love the differences in society described here on land and at sea and how it relates to the natural "goodness" of man vs. the necessary evil of society based on the Social Contract.  I hope to be back tomorrow to comment more.  Rosseau fits in with Illana's theme of insane heros doesn't he?  Well, I guess he's not insane exactly but a little off center, neurotic, & somewhat irresponsible...not so much in his theories, but in his personal life.

I am not sure exactly how I will use these new found facts/interpretations you offered but I revel in knowing them, and I am sure I will use them someday.

I wonder  if Moby Dick could be used to illustrate the same concept.  Maybe not so neatly (Note: I never finished the book).

My mother loved Don Quixote and had a wooden statue of him when I was a small child. I read the book in honors Spanish in high school, but I don't remember it well. I should reread it in English.  Being so much older now, I bet it would be an entirely new book.

Thanks for this post and the one preceding it*. I enjoyed them.

Kate

*I liked your concept of art combining insight with emotion..that is a conception that can go a long way.

---

Timbuktu2 wrote:

Mark Twain went with Rousseau, Cervantes with Erasmus.  I'd have to check my notes to do the question justice.    Basically, fromthe top of my head, Rousseau said that inequalities between individuals would not exist in a state of nature.  It's society and ownership of property that create inequalities between men.  So, when Huck and Jim are on the river, outside of society, they are equals.  As soon as they touch land, whenever they come into contact with society, there is corruption and evil.  Rousseau thought that man was naturally compassionate.

Don Quixote is the most complex and challenging book, just like life.  Just when i think I've pinned it down, it slips away, just like life.  I had some notes from a lecture on In Praise of Folly that I have to go over but it reminded me a bit of DQ, the fool.  The hero or the fool?  Then there were some quotes from the New Testament about Christ preferring the fool to the learned man.  There are so many threads in this book.  It's like Shakespeare in that you can read it over and over and each time read it differently.  Problem is, it's endless, over l000 pages!   Definitely worth it!

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Message Edited by Katelyn on 12-02-2008 09:19 PM

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 Thanks for the kind words and good luck tomorrow.  Sounds like you have a creative job.

I feel a little strange even discussing these things as it's all so new to me, I'm thrilled with it all but I'm not at all sure about any of it.  I'm just discovering it, day to day.

That's a great point about Rousseau, he was crazy alright!  Sometimes I do wonder, if our entire culture is dictated by crazy people....  So called "normal" people are busy farming, and shepherding and carpentering.  What would they have to say?  I'm only half kidding.   

I have never read Moby Dick but I think you're on to something.  There's a rotation in the novels we read and Moby Dick was interchangeable with Don Quixote, so they must have similar concepts.  One woman made a mistake and read Moby Dick over the summer, to get ahead.  I'll have to ask her!

My heart is close to your mom's.  It's amazing how differently people see Don Quixote.  I fell in love with him from the first page and totally identified.  It's hard to describe how he touched my heart, I couldn't put him out of my mind.  The prof and class have an entirely different reading!  They think he's an idiot.  A dangerous, unrealistic, fool.  I've been trying to understand their POV, and yes, that's there too.  But it kind of killed something for me.  I think I have an idealistic bent and the book is about disillusionment (in part) and that's what's happened to me.   

[KathyS]

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Katelyn wrote:

HI Kathy,

    I am glad you appeared today and are feeling better physically.  I read your message several times and it was good to hear your voice; even though it is a "virtual" one I can hear you. 

I am replying in a short message because I need to finish something for work by 7:00 AM tomorrow. I do understand how you feel about the group of men who bulldozed you and the members of your larger community. Like you, I think in general I relate to men better than women, but I know what it is like to be angry at certain male  ways of thinking seem that seem so foreign.  I think neither of us hate men, but the asymmetrical distribution of power in some situations.  And no one loves institutionalized stupidity (regardless of the sex of those involved).

Talk to you soon,

Kate

---

Bingo.  Thanks for your note. Thanks for hearing me.  Power does strange things to some people, men or women.  I love what you said, "institutionalized stupidity"  I kept thinking, two of these guys SHOULD be institutionalized!  But I don't think that there is a facility for morons!  Group mentality runs rampant where control is involved!

Sex does have something to do with this, but I won't go into the psychology of men and women, here.

I had my cheesecake today, plus a slice of pecan pie.  I'm set for the rest of the year!  Ugh, the calories! 

Get some rest!

Kathy

[KathyS]

Tim---I still haven't read DQ.  As I mentioned, somewhere back when you first brought him up, I had seen the musical, Man of La Mancha, many years ago.  When you talk about him, you've used the word 'fool'.  For some reason I have a problem with that word, in regards to him.  I know this is what your group called him.

I never saw him as simple, or stupid, or a jester, I saw him as a dreamer.  I don't know if it was the music, or that I fell in love with this character.  I empathized with him.  I did feel the foolishness that was felt by the "characters" around him.  It's been a lot of years, but that was the overall feeling I walked away with.  One day I'll remember to get this book!  I lost the Post-it I wrote it on, and my memory isn't what it used to be!  I just now got a B&N email...50% off a leather bound classic.  Hmm, I wonder if he's in there!  Gotta go.

Kathy

Message Edited by KathyS on 12-02-2008 10:28 PM

[Timbuktu2]

We're reading the Raffel translation, it's a paperback.

The book is very different from the musical.  When we started reading it I rented Orson Welle's unfinished Don Quixote and Man of La Mancha.  Orson  Welles version choked me up right away.  It touched a nerve.  My husband was unmoved.  Everyone seems to react so differently to this character.  I think Orson Welles related to him, he spent many years on the film but died before it was done.  He narrates from the book and I think he's very true to the characters and the themes.  Then i tried watching Man of LaMancha.  I tried several times.  I couldn't stay with it.  It was upsetting to see what they'd done to this masterpiece.  The first day of class the professor said that she'd been teaching the book for l0 years.  A student  told her to see Man of LaMancha.  She rented it and she couldn't watch it!  She said she didn't understand why but she just couldn't!  I understood why.  I hope you try the book Kathy but if you're not up for it you might want to give the Welle's movie a try.  

I'm sorry that I go on and on about it so much.  It's sort of taken over my mind.  Everything relates to it. 

[KathyS]

Tim---thank you for your added notes on this topic.  I appreciate it.  And please don't apologize for going on about DQ.  I've enjoyed hearing how you take many books, and relate the subjects.  Since I don't read a lot of the same books as you, I can't enter your discussions, but I do enjoy them, none the less. 

I do understand how you've correlated these threads of thought.  I've done this, at times, with recall of  lyric memory to subjects and writing in novels.

When you say, "there is nothing new under the sun", I think about this often.  I think about this, especially when trying to 'create' something new.  It hinders me when I think that maybe I can't.  I've talked about this with Becke Davis, a lot, now that she's writing novels.  We talk about what each of us is writing, we share what we write,  how it sounds, and our use of subject matter. 

We all base what we do, say, act, or create, on experiences.  Once in a while something sparks that urge, or experience, or nerve, or drive, and that spark travels into unknown territory of the mind.  Once in a while I'll hit on something that nobody has done.  I still make bookends for authors, and it's something I've never seen done before.   Bookends are nothing new, but when I can gather information, and process it though my own mind, from sometimes a little, and sometimes a lot of knowledge, to create something original that gives beauty and pleasure, as I hope it does to the person receiving them, as well as myself,  I then know that it's one of a kind.  And this is only one creative medium.

Every brush stroke that a painter uses, is original.  A potter's hands on clay, is original.  It's their fingerprint, as Kate mentioned.  Where we put that fingerprint, that's what is always up for debate and discussion.  If we look at one other, you see a nose, two eyes, a mouth, etc., but we are all different, and original, and special.  If you want to see it in a religious context, we are all God's work of art.  It's how our brains are wired that gives creativity to something unseen.

I don't physically see you, but I see how these discussions are changing your perspectives, by what you write.  You, yourself, are creating something unique, here, both in yourself, and with each and every one of us.  That's creativity, and that's beautiful, as I see you.

Thanks, again, for your participation in these discussions,

Kathy

Message Edited by KathyS on 12-03-2008 07:09 AM

[Timbuktu2]

Thanks Kathy, that was beautifully said.  It brought to mind the bevel-edged bowls at the oriental Institute.  These bowls are...can't remember exactly but at least 5,000 years old, from Mesopotamia.    They were mass produced by digging a hole in the sand and then pouring clay into the hole.  Then the potter tamped the clay with his fist.  They were of standard size, used to measure grain.  All of them are the same.  Except, at the bottom of each bowl is the imprint of a fist.  A 5000 year old fist.  I don't know why but I find that fist print very moving, more so even than works of art.  

[KathyS]

That fist print said who the potter was.  I think you see beyond the physicality of 'things'.  You do see the inner soul of people.  What goes into their labors, you recognize what goes into that being.  The blood, sweat and tears of what went into that creation.

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Timbuktu2 wrote:
Thanks Kathy, that was beautifully said.  It brought to mind the bevel-edged bowls at the oriental Institute.  These bowls are...can't remember exactly but at least 5,000 years old, from Mesopotamia.    They were mass produced by digging a hole in the sand and then pouring clay into the hole.  Then the potter tamped the clay with his fist.  They were of standard size, used to measure grain.  All of them are the same.  Except, at the bottom of each bowl is the imprint of a fist.  A 5000 year old fist.  I don't know why but I find that fist print very moving, more so even than works of art.  

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[Timbuktu2]

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Katelyn wrote:

Timbuktu,

    I loved what you wrote here! The only reason I have delayed in responding is that I have a presentation at 7:00 AM tomorrow and I just started making slides today.  I noticed I got the pairings wrong (Mark Twain erroneously paired with Erasmus), but I am glad I did because now I will remember it better.

You described things in a lively and memorable way that I think will stick with me.  I love the differences in society described here on land and at sea and how it relates to the natural "goodness" of man vs. the necessary evil of society based on the Social Contract.  I hope to be back tomorrow to comment more.  Rosseau fits in with Illana's theme of insane heros doesn't he?  Well, I guess he's not insane exactly but a little off center, neurotic, & somewhat irresponsible...not so much in his theories, but in his personal life.

I am not sure exactly how I will use these new found facts/interpretations you offered but I revel in knowing them, and I am sure I will use them someday.

I wonder  if Moby Dick could be used to illustrate the same concept.  Maybe not so neatly (Note: I never finished the book).

My mother loved Don Quixote and had a wooden statue of him when I was a small child. I read the book in honors Spanish in high school, but I don't remember it well. I should reread it in English.  Being so much older now, I bet it would be an entirely new book.

Thanks for this post and the one preceding it*. I enjoyed them.

Kate

*I liked your concept of art combining insight with emotion..that is a conception that can go a long way.

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Timbuktu2 wrote:

Mark Twain went with Rousseau, Cervantes with Erasmus.  I'd have to check my notes to do the question justice.    Basically, fromthe top of my head, Rousseau said that inequalities between individuals would not exist in a state of nature.  It's society and ownership of property that create inequalities between men.  So, when Huck and Jim are on the river, outside of society, they are equals.  As soon as they touch land, whenever they come into contact with society, there is corruption and evil.  Rousseau thought that man was naturally compassionate.

Don Quixote is the most complex and challenging book, just like life.  Just when i think I've pinned it down, it slips away, just like life.  I had some notes from a lecture on In Praise of Folly that I have to go over but it reminded me a bit of DQ, the fool.  The hero or the fool?  Then there were some quotes from the New Testament about Christ preferring the fool to the learned man.  There are so many threads in this book.  It's like Shakespeare in that you can read it over and over and each time read it differently.  Problem is, it's endless, over l000 pages!   Definitely worth it!

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Message Edited by Katelyn on 12-02-2008 09:19 PM

 

 

 

Katelyn

 

I've been reading an essay on DQ by Harold Bloom and I came upon the following:

 

The tragic sense of life, discovered by Unamuno in DQ, is also the faith of Moby Dick.  Ahab is a monomaniac; so is the kindlier DQ, but both are tormented idealists who seek justice in human terms, not as theocentric men but as ungodly, godlike men.  Ahab seeks only Moby-Dick's destruction; renown is nothing to the Quaker captain, and revenge is everything.  

 

So there it is!  The connection!  I love the term "tormented idealists", is there any other kind?

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[IlanaSimons]

How was the 7 am presentation?

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Katelyn wrote:

I am replying in a short message because I need to finish something for work by 7:00 AM tomorrow.

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