Chapter 3: "Tom's extravagance"

[pmath]

The living was hereafter for Edmund; and, had his uncle died a few years sooner, it would have been duly given to some friend to hold till he were old enough for orders. But Tom's extravagance had, previous to that event, been so great as to render a different disposal of the next presentation necessary, and the younger brother must help to pay for the pleasures of the elder.

Why did Sir Thomas let things go so far?

[LizzieAnn]

It's good to be back with Austen!

As good as Edmund is, I think he is flattered by the undying devotion that Fanny pays to him and as such takes her under his wing. At the end of chapter 2:

. . . he was always true to her interests, and considerate of her feelings, trying to make her good qualities understood, and to conquer the diffidence which prevented their being more apparent; giving her advice, consolation, and encouragement.

. . . he recommended the books which charmed her leisure hours, he encouraged her taste, and corrected her judgment: he made reading useful by talking to her of what whe read, and heightened its attraction by judicious praise.

Without his realizing it, he was forming her into a specific woman - the epitome of what he himself thought a woman should be.

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Choisya wrote:
Yes, welcome back LizzieAnn - you have been missed!

I think Edmund's hormones would be racing once a young girl was introduced to the household. Ten might seem young to us but girls were more mature in those times and romances blossomed earlier, perhaps because women also died much younger and often in childbirth.

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LizzieAnn wrote:
I always took as Edmund found her interesting because Fanny found him interesting - a case of hero-worship, being interested in his doings, and paying attention to him. He probably didn't get anything like that from Maria & Julia. If they paid attention to anyone other than themselves, it was probably their oldest brother Tom.

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pmath wrote:

Fanny's feelings on the occasion were such as she believed herself incapable of expressing; but her countenance and a few artless words fully conveyed all their gratitude and delight, and her cousin began to find her an interesting object.

What would a sixteen-year-old boy find interesting about a ten-year old girl? Edmund is already playing the rôle of a clergyman here.

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[LizzieAnn]

That always bothered me. But wasn't this true of the times - everything for the eldest son? But Sir Thomas doesn't seem to be an extravagant type himself that it's surprising he didn't try to curtail Tom before it got so out of hand. Tom, of course, doesn't really have any remorse (ther than a moment of shame & sorrow) after his father tells him:

You have robbed Edmund for ten, twenty, thirty years, perhaps for life, of more than half the income which out to be his.

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pmath wrote:

The living was hereafter for Edmund; and, had his uncle died a few years sooner, it would have been duly given to some friend to hold till he were old enough for orders. But Tom's extravagance had, previous to that event, been so great as to render a different disposal of the next presentation necessary, and the younger brother must help to pay for the pleasures of the elder.

Why did Sir Thomas let things go so far?

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[PaulK]

Chapter 3

I thought the Bennett's of Pride and Prejudice were a dysfunctional family but the Ward sisters may have put together a larger and more dysfunctional family. This really comes out in Ch. 3. On page 29 (B&N Classic edition) alone I count three examples of how this family is so bad. 1) Lady Bertram, "... being one of those persons who think nothing can be dangerous, or difficult, or fatiguing to anybody but themselves." 2) The Bertram girls had no love for their father. 3) Sir Thomas tells Fanny she has not improved in 10 years. There are many more examples of how bad this family is. The only character that shows any positive quality is Edmund. At least in P&P we had two good people in Jane and Elizabeth. Fanny inspires some sympathy but her main role seems to be to cry.
This is the first time I have read MP and at this point I do not no what I want to see happen. There is little to look forward too. Maybe Napoleon will invade and wipe them all out.

[LizzieAnn]

Within the first few chapters, we can already see the type of person Mrs. Norris is. She precipitated the fight with her sister Mrs. Price:

. . . Mrs. Norris had a spirit of activity, which could not be satisfied till she had written a long an angry letter to Fanny, to point ou the folly of her conduct, and threaten her with all its possible ill consequences. Mrs. Price, in her turn, was injured and angry; and an answer, which comprehended each sister in its bitterness, and bestowed such very distrespectful relections on the pride of Sir Thomas as Mrs Norris could not possibly keep to herself, put an end to all intercourse between them for considerable period. (Chapter 1)

Mrs. Norris is a veritable busybody with a sense of self-importance - miserly with her own money and generous with the money of her brother-in-law. It was also Mrs. Norris' idea to take Fanny from the Price home to relieve Mrs. Price of one child to care for. Mrs. Norris won Sir Thomas to the idea by leading him to believe that she would be responsible for Fanny. However, with the approaching arrival of Fanny, Mrs. Norris told Sir Thomas that she couldn't take her and that Fanny would have to be one of his household.

She is also an overbearing woman, and not truly a kind person in her treatment of Fanny. While bringing Fanny to Mansfield Park:

Mrs. Norris had been talking to her the whole way from Northampton of her wonderful good fortune, and the extraordinatry degree of gratitude and good behavior which it ought to produce, . . . all the officious prognostications ofr Mrs. Norris that she would be a good girl . . . Mrs. Norris's admonitions. (Chapter 2)

Instead of trying to ease Fanny & provide comfort, all Mrs. Norris does is increase her anxiety. It's all rather overwhelming for a 10-year-old girl who's been taken from her home & family. When Maria & Julia tell their aunt of Fanny's ignorance & lack of education, Mrs. Norris agrees with them instead of encouraging them to have more patience & understanding with Fanny.

Such were the counsels by which Mrs. Norris assisted to form her nieces' mind; and it is not very wonderful that,with alltheir promising talents and early information, they should be entirely deficient in the less common acquirements of self-knowledge, generosity, and humility. (Chapter 2)

Even upon the death of Mr. Norris, Mrs. Norris makes all kinds of excuses not to accept Fanny into her home, surprising Sir Thomas yet again.

[pmath]

But "no, he was a short-necked, apoplectic sort of fellow, and, plied well with good things, would soon pop off."

(!)

The Doctor was very fond of eating, and would have a good dinner every day; ... Mrs. Norris could not speak with any temper ... of the quantity of butter and eggs that were regularly consumed in the house.

Tom may be right.

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LizzieAnn wrote:
Tom, of course, doesn't really have any remorse (ther than a moment of shame & sorrow) after his father tells him:

You have robbed Edmund for ten, twenty, thirty years, perhaps for life, of more than half the income which out to be his.

Message Edited by pmath on 04-03-200704:30 PM

[LizzieAnn]

We see Edmund's continued care & education of Fanny as they grow older. We learn that Fanny was terrified at the idea of learning to ride a horse, as her uncle felt she should. It was Edmund who helped who through this, persuading her not to be afraid. It's obvious she would do anything for Edmund.

[pmath]

Ah, Paul, there is a lot to look forward to: just don't expect another P&P!

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PaulK wrote:
This is the first time I have read MP and at this point I do not know what I want to see happen. There is little to look forward too.

[jd]

I am so tired of feeling sorry for Fanny the kicked puppy. I wish she would hurry up and get some teeth. Edmund is a natural clergyman. He already has the empathy for his new career. Everyone else in the story is so one diminsional and predictable - jd

[pmath]

Jan, what would you have her do?

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jd wrote:
I am so tired of feeling sorry for Fanny the kicked puppy. I wish she would hurry up and get some teeth.

[Choisya]

At the time the novel was written, the Napoleonic wars and the conflicts with America led to a slump in the price of sugar and many plantations in the Caribbean began to fail, and of course there had already been legislation curbing the slave trade (not slavery itself at that time, just the trading in them). As Jane Austen's father and a friend of his, James Nibbs, had plantations in Antigua she would have known of these failing fortunes, Incidentally, James Nibbs also had a profligate son and it has been speculated that MP is based on his life, as he was the owner of a 'stately home' and had large holdings in Antigua which failed. These facts many have underpinned JA's writing about Sir Thomas trying to curtail Tom's extravagances. They might also have been behind later stormy scenes regarding Sir Thomas wanting Fanny to marry 'well' and her being sent back to Portsmouth.

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LizzieAnn wrote:
That always bothered me. But wasn't this true of the times - everything for the eldest son? But Sir Thomas doesn't seem to be an extravagant type himself that it's surprising he didn't try to curtail Tom before it got so out of hand. Tom, of course, doesn't really have any remorse (ther than a moment of shame & sorrow) after his father tells him:

You have robbed Edmund for ten, twenty, thirty years, perhaps for life, of more than half the income which out to be his.

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pmath wrote:

The living was hereafter for Edmund; and, had his uncle died a few years sooner, it would have been duly given to some friend to hold till he were old enough for orders. But Tom's extravagance had, previous to that event, been so great as to render a different disposal of the next presentation necessary, and the younger brother must help to pay for the pleasures of the elder.

Why did Sir Thomas let things go so far?

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Message Edited by Choisya on 04-04-200708:02 AM

[Choisya]

Could the daughter of an impoverished family sent to lodge with a richer uncle and becoming utterly dependent on him, ever acquire 'teeth'? 'Spunk' as we call it was in little evidence in the women of these times because of their dependence on men throughout their lives. I think women such as Fanny tended to live very 'internal' lives, hence the emphasis on journal writing, 'accomplishments' like music and art and, of course, solitude.

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jd wrote:
I am so tired of feeling sorry for Fanny the kicked puppy. I wish she would hurry up and get some teeth. Edmund is a natural clergyman. He already has the empathy for his new career. Everyone else in the story is so one diminsional and predictable - jd

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[jd]

C- you are right, they had to depend on others. But Fanny is sooooo pathetic. She is quiet and has WELCOME printed on her forehead to such a degree that I stop feeling sorry for her and decide that everyone else is just a little quicker than she in getting what they want!!!! I am sure JA will come through for me with a happy ending but I do hope Fanny has an opportunity for the last say. -jd

[Choisya]

I know what you mean jd and I am like that about women in real life - I always dislike wimps! LOL. However, I am a bit more sympathetic to the women of those restrictive times. When it comes to the period of those who should have burned their bras, I am less so.

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jd wrote:
C- you are right, they had to depend on others. But Fanny is sooooo pathetic. She is quiet and has WELCOME printed on her forehead to such a degree that I stop feeling sorry for her and decide that everyone else is just a little quicker than she in getting what they want!!!! I am sure JA will come through for me with a happy ending but I do hope Fanny has an opportunity for the last say. -jd

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Message Edited by Choisya on 04-04-200710:33 AM

[ziki]

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PaulK wrote:This is the first time I have read MP and at this point I do not no what I want to see happen. There is little to look forward too. Maybe Napoleon will invade and wipe them all out.

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LOL
ziki

[Choisya]

RFOL - Not in Jane Austen PaulK!!

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ziki wrote:

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PaulK wrote:This is the first time I have read MP and at this point I do not no what I want to see happen. There is little to look forward too. Maybe Napoleon will invade and wipe them all out.

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LOL
ziki

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[LizzieAnn]

Mr. Rushworth . . . was a heavy young man, with not more than common sense; but as there was nothing disagreeable in his figure or address, the young lady was well pleased with her conquest. Being now in her twenty-first year, Maria Bertram was beginning to think matrimony a duty; and as a marriage with Mr. Rushworth would give her the enjoyment of a larger income than her father's, as well as ensure her the house in town, which was now a prime object, it became, by the same rule of moral obligation, her evident duty to marry Mr. Rushworth if she could. (Chapter 4)

It appears that Mr. Rushworth himself is the least enticing ingredient of this marriage package, following behind a large income, a town house, and the obligation of being married before Maria becomes an "old maid". Doesn't exactly bode well for a happy marriage.

[PaulK]

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LizzieAnn wrote:
Mr. Rushworth . . . was a heavy young man, with not more than common sense; but as there was nothing disagreeable in his figure or address, the young lady was well pleased with her conquest. Being now in her twenty-first year, Maria Bertram was beginning to think matrimony a duty; and as a marriage with Mr. Rushworth would give her the enjoyment of a larger income than her father's, as well as ensure her the house in town, which was now a prime object, it became, by the same rule of moral obligation, her evident duty to marry Mr. Rushworth if she could. (Chapter 4)

It appears that Mr. Rushworth himself is the least enticing ingredient of this marriage package, following behind a large income, a town house, and the obligation of being married before Maria becomes an "old maid". Doesn't exactly bode well for a happy marriage.

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Chapter 5.
What you say about Rushworth continues in Ch.5 with the Crawford's listing Edmund's advantages starting with his being in line for a park, a good house, and a title. He was at first considered plain but had "good teeth," (B&N Classic p.39). JA really likes to make fun of the mating rituals of the time.
Ch.4 is interesting to see how quick everyone is paired up. Just match up income levels and you are set.

[PaulK]

Ch. 5
I think the long passages of being "out" are classic JA. She can take a dry topic and use it to show just how shallow these characters are. I wondered if she laughed as she wrote these passages.

I do have a question. I did not quite understand what was happening early in the chapter with the discussion of being "taken in" in marriage. Can someone give me their understanding.

[LizzieAnn]

It's also interesting to note Mrs. Grant's planss for her sister Mary Crawford, who's arrived with her brother Henry, at the end of Chapter 4:

Mary Crawford was remarkably pretty; Henry, though not handsome, had air and countenance; the manners of both were lively and pleasant, and Mrs. Grant immediately gave them credit for everything else. She was delighted with each, but Mary was her dearest object; and having never been able to glory in beauty of her own, she thoroughly enjoyed the power of being proud of her sister’s. She had not waited her arrival to look out for a suitable match for her: she had fixed on Tom Bertram; the eldest son of a baronet was not too good for a girl of twenty thousand pounds, with all the elegance and accomplishments which Mrs. Grant foresaw in her; and being a warm–hearted, unreserved woman, Mary had not been three hours in the house before she told her what she had planned.

as well as Mary's response to this scheme:

Miss Crawford was . . . not at all displeased either at her sister’s early care, or the choice it had fallen on. Matrimony was her object, provided she could marry well: and having seen Mr. Bertram in town, she knew that objection could no more be made to his person than to his situation in life.

and for Henry:

“And now,” added Mrs. Grant, “I have thought of something to make it complete. I should dearly love to settle you both in this country; and therefore, Henry, you shall marry the youngest Miss Bertram, a nice, handsome, good–humoured, accomplished girl, who will make you very happy.”

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PaulK wrote:

What you say about Rushworth continues in Ch.5 with the Crawford's listing Edmund's advantages starting with his being in line for a park, a good house, and a title. He was at first considered plain but had "good teeth," (B&N Classic p.39). JA really likes to make fun of the mating rituals of the time.
Ch.4 is interesting to see how quick everyone is paired up. Just match up income levels and you are set.

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