MANSFIELD PARK: Chapters 33 - 40

[pmath]

This thread is for our discussion of Chapters 33 through 40 of Jane Austen's Mansfield Park.

I suggest including quotations in each message and chapter numbers in subject lines, to avoid spoilers!

[Jansten75]

V3, Chpt 2 P.327 or, for others, Chpt 33

Henry believed he could make Fanny love him. He thought of the act of changing her feelings toward him. "He had been apt to gain hearts too easily. His situation (with Fanny) was new and animating."
Fanny on the other hand had known opposition all her life and found no charm in it.

Interesting contrast in Henry's and Fanny's experiences and how it colors their current behavior. For Henry, the opposite of his experiences were enticing; not so for Fanny. It would seem Fanny might be more open to someone who wanted to embrace her.

[jd]

J - do you think it was H's boredom that lead him to do some of the awful things he does? Or do you think he was inherently cocky and self-centered??? -jd

[Jansten75]

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jd wrote:
J - do you think it was H's boredom that lead him to do some of the awful things he does? Or do you think he was inherently cocky and self-centered??? -jd

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Good questions. I could not say for sure. It has always appeared to me that young adults who have been brought up in a privileged environment with few parameters with which to measure their activities and their responsibility continue to push what is possible for themselves. Maybe they are looking for parameters which is why they keep pushing. Maybe this is why Henry likes the resistance he receives from Fanny. It gives his life focus and value. If everything goes, how do you place value on anything. I think living a privileged life often instills a certain amount of arrogance.

[pmath]

"...you must be aware, Fanny, that it is every young woman's duty to accept such a very unexceptionable offer as this."

This was almost the only rule of conduct, the only piece of advice, which Fanny had ever received from her aunt in the course of eight years and a half. It silenced her.

To whom, or to what, does Lady Bertram think it's a duty?

[pmath]

"...she was in the middle of a very fine speech of that man's-- what's his name, Fanny?--when we heard your footsteps."

Crawford took the volume. "Let me have the pleasure of finishing that speech to your ladyship," said he. "I shall find it immediately." And by carefully giving way to the inclination of the leaves, he did find it, or within a page or two, quite near enough to satisfy Lady Bertram, who assured him, as soon as he mentioned the name of Cardinal Wolsey, that he had got the very speech.

Which speech from Henry VIII do you think JA is referring to? What is she telling us when she has Mr Crawford read this speech?

[Jansten75]

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pmath wrote:

"...you must be aware, Fanny, that it is every young woman's duty to accept such a very unexceptionable offer as this."

This was almost the only rule of conduct, the only piece of advice, which Fanny had ever received from her aunt in the course of eight years and a half. It silenced her.

To whom, or to what, does Lady Bertram think it's a duty?

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My guess is to her family, particularly the father who has supposedly been responsible for her "care and feeding".

[Melissa_W Moderator]

If we go back to the opening of MP, Lacy Bertram had the "good luck" to be married to Sir Thomas and she only had seven thousand pounds. I'm pretty sure her mother said something similar to her when she was on the husband hunt. So Lady Bertram passes on her only piece of useful advice and until sometime in the twentieth century society agreed with her that a young woman's duty to her family and the world at large is to make the best possible marriage. Otherwise, you get Miss Bates (poor) or wind up as Elizabeth Eliot (scary).

And to any sillier girl with Fanny's similar family situation, a marriage proposal from someone like Henry would have been manna from heaven. I think in this way the proposal mirrors Maria's - the pounds and estates block out Henry's true character just as Edmund notes that if Rushworth were not so rich they would think him very stupid.

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pmath wrote:

"...you must be aware, Fanny, that it is every young woman's duty to accept such a very unexceptionable offer as this."

This was almost the only rule of conduct, the only piece of advice, which Fanny had ever received from her aunt in the course of eight years and a half. It silenced her.

To whom, or to what, does Lady Bertram think it's a duty?

---

[Jansten75]

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pedsphleb wrote:
If we go back to the opening of MP, Lacy Bertram had the "good luck" to be married to Sir Thomas and she only had seven thousand pounds. I'm pretty sure her mother said something similar to her when she was on the husband hunt. So Lady Bertram passes on her only piece of useful advice and until sometime in the twentieth century society agreed with her that a young woman's duty to her family and the world at large is to make the best possible marriage. Otherwise, you get Miss Bates (poor) or wind up as Elizabeth Eliot (scary).

And to any sillier girl with Fanny's similar family situation, a marriage proposal from someone like Henry would have been manna from heaven. I think in this way the proposal mirrors Maria's - the pounds and estates block out Henry's true character just as Edmund notes that if Rushworth were not so rich they would think him very stupid.

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pmath wrote:

"...you must be aware, Fanny, that it is every young woman's duty to accept such a very unexceptionable offer as this."

This was almost the only rule of conduct, the only piece of advice, which Fanny had ever received from her aunt in the course of eight years and a half. It silenced her.

To whom, or to what, does Lady Bertram think it's a duty?

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In reference to the opening of the book, I keep looking at the fact that there were three sisters and the fate of each. Next generation, we have "three sisters" and their fates. I have drawn some comparisons but will not share them until then end as I do not want to spoil anything. Besides, my thoughts may be searching for something that is not there. To be continued...

[pmath]

"... I wish he had known you as well as I do, Fanny. Between us, I think we should have won you. My theoretical and his practical knowledge together could not have failed. He should have worked upon my plans. ..."

Edmund certainly thinks of her as a prize: why not for himself?

Message Edited by pmath on 05-02-200710:35 PM

[pmath]

Her disposition was peculiarly calculated to value a fond treatment, and from having hitherto known so little of it, she was the more overcome by Miss Crawford's.

Ah, how can you not feel for poor Fanny after reading this?

[pmath]

It was a medicinal project upon his niece's understanding, which he must consider as at present diseased. A residence of eight or nine years in the abode of wealth and plenty had a little disordered her powers of comparing and judging. Her father's house would, in all probability, teach her the value of a good income; and he trusted that she would be the wiser and happier woman, all her life, for the experiment he had devised.

First there is Mrs Norris's scheme (Chapter 1), then there are Edmund's plans, and here is Sir Thomas's experiment: is Fanny their toy?

[Jansten75]

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pmath wrote:

It was a medicinal project upon his niece's understanding, which he must consider as at present diseased. A residence of eight or nine years in the abode of wealth and plenty had a little disordered her powers of comparing and judging. Her father's house would, in all probability, teach her the value of a good income; and he trusted that she would be the wiser and happier woman, all her life, for the experiment he had devised.

First there is Mrs Norris's scheme (Chapter 1), then there are Edmund's plans, and here is Sir Thomas's experiment: is Fanny their toy?

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I think each feels he/she has a controlling interest in Fanny's welfare. Sir Thomas Bertram's interest are autocratic and financial. Mrs. Norris just wants the recognition as a marker to justify a more elevated existence in the family. Edmund has a concern for Fanny's emotional life. Refresh me on Edmund's plans-I do not have a clear cut view of those. Unless, is it his joining in on the view that Fanny just needs more time to be in Henry's company and used to the idea of Henry's interest in her.

[jd]

I do not feel Fanny is a toy, or pliable. She just takes her lumps and goes on. She cannot stop her uncle from sending her home. She does learn, in comparing her parents household to her uncle's, that it is nicer to be in her uncle's and E is there. H, manages to see her while at her parents and does have a more positive bearing on her but she is not completely taken over. - jd

[LizzieAnn]

Lady Bertram, and probably most of society of that time, thought that marriage was a young woman's duty to herself (to see that she was financially secure), to her family (to relieve them of the financial obligation), and to society (as every woman should have a home of her own as well as security).

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pmath wrote:

"...you must be aware, Fanny, that it is every young woman's duty to accept such a very unexceptionable offer as this."

This was almost the only rule of conduct, the only piece of advice, which Fanny had ever received from her aunt in the course of eight years and a half. It silenced her.

To whom, or to what, does Lady Bertram think it's a duty?

---

[LizzieAnn]

I'm not quite sure of what speech it would be, but Wolsey was a master manipulator who eventually lost everything. Could it be a foreshadowing for Henry?

It's interesting how Henry's reading of Shakespeare draws Fanny in.

She seemed determined to be interested by nothing else. But taste was too strong in her. She could not abstract her mind five minutes; she was forced to listen; his reading was capital, and her pleasure in good reading extreme. To good reading, however, she had been long used; her uncle read well—her cousins all—Edmund very well; but in Mr. Crawford's reading there was a variety of excellence beyond what she had ever met with. The King, the Queen, Buckingham, Wolsey, Cromwell, all were given in turn; for with the happiest knack, the happiest power of jumping and guessing, he could always light, at will, on the best scene, or the best speeches of each; and whether it were dignity or pride, or tenderness or remorse, or whatever were to be expressed, he could do it with equal beauty. — It was truly dramatic.—His acting had first taught Fanny what pleasure a play might give, and his reading brought all his acting before her again; nay, perhaps with greater enjoyment, for it came unexpectedly, and with no such drawback as she had been used to suffer in seeing him on the stage with Miss Bertram.

Is it due to Shakespeare's words or to Henry's acting ability?

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pmath wrote:

"...she was in the middle of a very fine speech of that man's-- what's his name, Fanny?--when we heard your footsteps."

Crawford took the volume. "Let me have the pleasure of finishing that speech to your ladyship," said he. "I shall find it immediately." And by carefully giving way to the inclination of the leaves, he did find it, or within a page or two, quite near enough to satisfy Lady Bertram, who assured him, as soon as he mentioned the name of Cardinal Wolsey, that he had got the very speech.

Which speech from Henry VIII do you think JA is referring to? What is she telling us when she has Mr Crawford read this speech?

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[kiakar]

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pmath wrote:

It was a medicinal project upon his niece's understanding, which he must consider as at present diseased. A residence of eight or nine years in the abode of wealth and plenty had a little disordered her powers of comparing and judging. Her father's house would, in all probability, teach her the value of a good income; and he trusted that she would be the wiser and happier woman, all her life, for the experiment he had devised.

First there is Mrs Norris's scheme (Chapter 1), then there are Edmund's plans, and here is Sir Thomas's experiment: is Fanny their toy?

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She might as have been a toy, one they could wind up and say what they wanted to hear, or do what they wanted to do and then sit back in a corner until they were bored enought to want her again. That is why this story was like a fairy tale. All of that sure did change......didn't it?

[LizzieAnn]

Because while he loves Fanny, he's in love with Mary. I also think Edmund sees Fanny's marriage to Henry as a logical solution/conclusion. Edmund still thinks of Fanny as a sister. Edmund still has hopes of marrying Mary - what could be a more logical conclusion - brother & sister marrying brother & sister. He feels himself much in tune with Fanny:

"I know you have something on your mind. I know what you are thinking of."

Unfortunately, Edmund doesn't know Fanny as well as he thinks he does. He sees himself & Fanny as a close pair and Mary & Henry as a close pair, and all four together would be close all the time.

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pmath wrote:

"... I wish he had known you as well as I do, Fanny. Between us, I think we should have won you. My theoretical and his practical knowledge together could not have failed. He should have worked upon my plans. ..."

Edmund certainly thinks of her as a prize: why not for himself?

Message Edited by pmath on 05-02-200710:35 PM

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[LizzieAnn]

How not? Poor Fanny has certainly been through quite a lot emotionally with the Crawford siblings.

And embracing her very affectionately, — "Good, gentle Fanny! when I think of this being the last time of seeing you; for I do not know how long — I feel it quite impossible to do anything but love you."

Fanny was affected. She had not foreseen anything of this, and her feelings could seldom withstand the melancholy influence of the word "last." She cried as if she had loved Miss Crawford more than she possibly could; and Miss Crawford, yet farther softened by the sight of such emotion, hung about her with fondness, and said, "I hate to leave you. I shall see no one half so amiable where I am going. Who says we shall not be sisters? I know we shall. I feel that we are born to be connected; and those tears convince me that you feel it too, dear Fanny."

Wishful thinking on Mary's part? Does she feel that this connection will come through her marriage or Fanny's or both?

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pmath wrote:

Her disposition was peculiarly calculated to value a fond treatment, and from having hitherto known so little of it, she was the more overcome by Miss Crawford's.

Ah, how can you not feel for poor Fanny after reading this?

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[LizzieAnn]

I don't think Fanny's a toy. I think that they are trying to do what is best for whatever particular motives.

Mrs. Norris's idea, however, wasn't really to benefit Fanny as much as to give Mrs. Norris a certain cachet. She played at being "benevolent" - receiving gratitude and credit while doing very little.

Edmund & Sir Thomas truly think that they are helping her & doing their best for her. Even in trying to get her to marry Henry. At that time, marriage was still the most viable option of financial security and a good life.