Right(eous)ness

[jd]

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pmath wrote:
Righteous for the most part, perhaps, but not self-righteous, surely: they're always examining themselves! Mary, on the other hand, seems very sure of herself.

Why is virtue boring?

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LizzieAnn wrote:
I think Fanny would have a more interesting life with Henry than with Edmund. To me, Fanny & Edmund make a dull combination as well as a self-righteous one.

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Pmath - Virtue is not nearly as lively as sin, thus the temptation don't you think? Surely F is not really virtuous but only pious and has only to fall back on her piousness to make those around her feel she is virtuous, - jd

[Jansten75]

I was surprised as well as to the length of time that had elapsed before Edmund sent a letter to Fanny. With his input on every action at home, why would he not have maintained a close contact while she was away. I felt Edmund had set Fanny up for this move to Portsmouth by reporting to his father that he believed Fanny just needed time to get used to the idea of Henry's caring for her. I do not think Sir Bertram would have thought to pursue such a course if he did not have absolute trust in Edmund's judgment. Sir Bertram thought he was helping her to see some sense in her situation.

These two offenses by Edmund do not carry the sensitivity of someone who really knows a close friend. Fanny does not take issue with Edmund for not writing. Yet she is so quick to judge Mary for her lapse in writing. Fanny has mean and jealous thoughts at hearing from Mary in one letter. Yet she is eager to hear from her again. I believe she merely wanted Mary's letters to keep a constant guage on what was happening between Mary and Edmund. Here I think her actions and thoughts are duplicitous. She continues a love/hate relationship with Mary for her own purposes. She pretends to be a friend of Mary's but has such evil thoughts of her. Where are her principles for doing the right thing given her feelings?

[pmath]

Sin is boring, IMO! I don't see any indication in MP that Fanny isn't genuinely virtuous: can you give me some examples?

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jd wrote:
Pmath - Virtue is not nearly as lively as sin, thus the temptation don't you think? Surely F is not really virtuous but only pious and has only to fall back on her piousness to make those around her feel she is virtuous, - jd

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pmath wrote:
Righteous for the most part, perhaps, but not self-righteous, surely: they're always examining themselves! Mary, on the other hand, seems very sure of herself.

Why is virtue boring?

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LizzieAnn wrote:
I think Fanny would have a more interesting life with Henry than with Edmund. To me, Fanny & Edmund make a dull combination as well as a self-righteous one.

[pmath]

Why is she to be blamed for thinking and feeling as most girls in love would think and feel? To her credit, her actions are always loving.

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Jansten75 wrote:
Fanny has mean and jealous thoughts at hearing from Mary in one letter.

Message Edited by pmath on 05-08-200711:18 PM

[kiakar]

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pmath wrote:
Yes, Linda: this is true love!

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kiakar wrote:
I think he thought of her as a little sister at first, but he came so familiar with her, she was his companion and dear friend that he confined in. He too, respected her opinions. This was developing into a love relationship, the way love is suppose to be. Knowing the person well and becoming friends, respecting that person and what she or he stands for and then comes love....

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pmath wrote:

"... I miss you more than I can express. ... You are happy at Portsmouth, I hope, but this must not be a yearly visit. I want you at home, that I may have your opinion about Thornton Lacey. ..."

Edmund seems to regard Fanny more as a companion than a little sister.

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PMath; Most of us, have dreamed of love developing this way even if it has never happened to us. Most love affairs are just to quick and then its over.....

[kiakar]

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pmath wrote:
Why is she to be blamed for thinking and feeling as most girls in love would think and feel? To her credit, her actions are always loving.

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Jansten75 wrote:
Fanny has mean and jealous thoughts at hearing from Mary in one letter.

Message Edited by pmath on 05-08-200711:18 PM

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This is so true, Pmath. Besides always being loving, she is usually honest and not scheming like alot of girls of that time did when a suitor came their way. One they used the word love for but really meant the meal ticket they needed. But Fannie to me, maybe not a saint, but truly did love Edmund and wasn't thinking about who would take care of her down the road. If it was so, she would have taken Henry up on his proposal.

[pmath]

The key is for a woman and a man to have the opportunity to be just friends before they're mates: perhaps this can only happen when the latter isn't initially possible! The period of transition can be a confusing time, though, as it was for Edmund.

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kiakar wrote:
PMath; Most of us, have dreamed of love developing this way even if it has never happened to us. Most love affairs are just to quick and then its over.....

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pmath wrote:
Yes, Linda: this is true love!

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kiakar wrote:
This was developing into a love relationship, the way love is suppose to be. Knowing the person well and becoming friends, respecting that person and what she or he stands for and then comes love....

[pmath]

Linda, I think she is indeed a saint! I wonder if JA modeled her after one.

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kiakar wrote:
This is so true, Pmath. Besides always being loving, she is usually honest and not scheming like alot of girls of that time did when a suitor came their way. One they used the word love for but really meant the meal ticket they needed. But Fannie to me, maybe not a saint, but truly did love Edmund and wasn't thinking about who would take care of her down the road. If it was so, she would have taken Henry up on his proposal.

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pmath wrote:
Why is she to be blamed for thinking and feeling as most girls in love would think and feel? To her credit, her actions are always loving.

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Jansten75 wrote:
Fanny has mean and jealous thoughts at hearing from Mary in one letter.

[LizzieAnn]

I don't think Edmund thinks of Fanny as a "close friend" either, despite what he says. He uses her as a sounding board for his own feelings and thoughts, but doesn't truly give her the chance to say what she really feels or listen to her when she does. He only wants to hear his own opinions given back to him.

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Jansten75 wrote:
I was surprised as well as to the length of time that had elapsed before Edmund sent a letter to Fanny. With his input on every action at home, why would he not have maintained a close contact while she was away. I felt Edmund had set Fanny up for this move to Portsmouth by reporting to his father that he believed Fanny just needed time to get used to the idea of Henry's caring for her. I do not think Sir Bertram would have thought to pursue such a course if he did not have absolute trust in Edmund's judgment. Sir Bertram thought he was helping her to see some sense in her situation.

These two offenses by Edmund do not carry the sensitivity of someone who really knows a close friend. Fanny does not take issue with Edmund for not writing. Yet she is so quick to judge Mary for her lapse in writing. Fanny has mean and jealous thoughts at hearing from Mary in one letter. Yet she is eager to hear from her again. I believe she merely wanted Mary's letters to keep a constant guage on what was happening between Mary and Edmund. Here I think her actions and thoughts are duplicitous. She continues a love/hate relationship with Mary for her own purposes. She pretends to be a friend of Mary's but has such evil thoughts of her. Where are her principles for doing the right thing given her feelings?

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[LizzieAnn]

Probably because she couldn't obtain information any other way, especially since the Grants were away.

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CallMeLeo wrote:
What surprised me about Mary's letter is that she would even write it!

[LizzieAnn]

I found it interesting that Mary sent Fanny a "warning" letter, telling her to disregard gossip. Is it because she truly wants to seen Henry happily settled with Fanny? Poor Fanny, of course, has no idea what she's talking about until her father enlightens her the next day.

"Then, there's the devil to pay among them, that's all. There, (holding out the paper to her) — much good may such fine relations do you. I don't know what Sir Thomas may think of such matters; he may be too much of the courtier and fine gentleman to like his daughter the less. . . ."

Fanny read to herself that "it was with infinite concern the newspaper had to announce to the world, a matrimonial fracas in the family of Mr. R. of Wimpole Street; the beautiful Mrs. R. whose name had not long been enrolled in the lists of hymen, and who had promised to become so brilliant a leader in the fashionable world, having quitted her husband's roof in company with the well known and captivating Mr. C. the intimate friend and associate of Mr. R. and it was not known, even to the editor of the newspaper, whither they were gone."

Imagine Fanny's shock at reading this in the paper & finally understanding what Mary's letter had been about. She keeps going over it in her mind, trying to understand. I find it interesting the manner in which she thinks of Henry.

The event was so shocking, that there were moments even when her heart revolted from it as impossible—when she thought it could not be. A woman married only six months ago, a man professing himself devoted, even engaged, to another — that other her near relation . . . it was too horrible a confusion of guilt, too gross a complication of evil, for human nature, not in a state of utter barbarism, to be capable of! — yet her judgment told her it was so. His unsettled affections, wavering with his vanity, Maria's decided attachment, and no sufficient principle on either side, gave it possibility — Miss Crawford's letter stampt it a fact.

Finally, three days later Fanny heres from Edmund confirming the news of Maria and giving news of Julia's elopement with Mr. Yates. To her delight, she learns that she is to leave Portsmouth the next day to return to Mansfield Park & that Susan is to accompany her. Edmund arrives to escort them to MP, but Susan's presence inhibits their conversation. But Edmund does manage to convey his regrets for Fanny's suffering, as he believes from Henry's desertion, and for his own feelings. It's obvious that Edmund believed a union between Henry & Fanny was a certainty.

[LizzieAnn]

It's typical of Mrs. Norris' favoritism for Maria & hatred of Fanny that she sees Fanny as the culprit in this situation - saying that this would never have happened if Fanny had married Henry.

Fanny provided Lady Bertram with the need companion, and she related to Fanny all that had happened, and Fanny worried for the family, particularly her uncle and Edmund. After several days Edmund finally confides in Fanny regarding his interview with Mary regarding their siblings. He was shocked by her careless manner and her anger against Henry & Maria for their folly & stupidity as opposed to their actions - Maria for giving up her marriage and Henry for getting carried & throwing away his chance with Fanny. Edmund is shocked by Mary's reaction:

Guess what I must have felt. To hear the woman whom — no harsher name than folly given! — So voluntarily, so freely, so coolly to canvass it!—No reluctance, no horror, no feminine — shall I say? no modest loathings! — Edmund obviously expected a more outraged reaction than the one he recieved. . . .

She saw it only as folly . . . The want of common discretion, of caution — his going down to Richmond for the whole time of her being at Twickenham — her putting herself in the power of a servant; — it was the detection in short — Oh! Fanny, it was the detection, not the offence which she reprobated. It was the imprudence which had brought things to extremity, and obliged her brother to give up every dearer plan, in order to fly with her."

Edmund says that he's no longer under Mary's spell, and even repeats Mary's saying (much as Mrs. Norris had) that if Fanny had accepted Henry this would never have come to pass. Edmund realizes that he can no longer ask Mary to marry him and tells her so, explaining their differences, etc. She tries to overcome his reluctance as he takes his leave of her:

I had gone a few steps, Fanny, when I heard the door open behind me. 'Mr. Bertram,' said she. I looked back. 'Mr. Bertram,' said she, with a smile — but it was a smile ill-suited to the conversation that had passed, a saucy playful smile, seeming to invite, in order to subdue me; at least, it appeared so to me. I resisted; it was the impulse of the moment to resist, and still walked on. I have since — sometimes — for a moment — regretted that I did not go back; but I know I was right. . .

I think it's such a real & natural reaction on Mary's part that she would use sexuality to try to entice Edmund back. And Edmund's regret is also very real & natural.

[LizzieAnn]

I think this is a great humorous touch on JA's part. Perhaps she was stressing that no one benefits from greed or gluttony - or any other of the seven deadly sins?

Gluttony & greed do in Dr. Grant. Lust & pride do in Henry & Maria. Pride & envy do in Mrs. Norris. Lust and wrath do in Mary.

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pmath wrote:

They lived together; and when Dr. Grant had brought on apoplexy and death, by three great institutionary dinners in one week, they still lived together...

Tom was right: see my earlier message, on Chapter 3. What an end! Is JA also making some comment on the other characters in MP here?

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[LizzieAnn]

The last chapter tends to tie up everything neatly & quickly:

Julia & Yates ask for forgiveness, return to the family, and are willing to be guided by Sir Thomas.

Edmund is no longer under Mary's spell.

Tom got over his illness, and became a better person.

Sir Thomas realizes that he made mistakes with his children.

Maria & Henry split up. Henry regrets losing Fanny, while Maria is glad that their escapade has kept Henry from the one thing he most wanted - Fanny.

Henry regrets his foolish action all the more because it did cost him Fanny:

Would he have persevered, and uprightly, Fanny must have been his reward—and a reward very voluntarily bestowed — within a reasonable period from Edmund's marrying Mary. . . . we may fairly consider a man of sense like Henry Crawford, to be providing for himself no small portion of vexation and regret — vexation that must rise sometimes to self-reproach, and regret to wretchedness — in having so requited hospitality, so injured family peace, so forfeited his best, most estimable and endeared acquaintance, and so lost the woman whom he had rationally, as well as passionately loved.

Maria & Mrs. Norris go off to live uncomfortably together in another country. Mrs. Norris' absence is bound to improve the spirits at Mansfield Park.

Mr. Rushworth obtains a divorce.

The Grants live Mansfield Park for Westminster. Mary accompanies them, finding it difficult to get over her feelings for Edmund.

Susan found her niche at MP by stepping into Fanny's shoes as a companion to her aunt Lady Bertram.

Edmund realizes he loves Fanny after all, and they eventually marry. JA puts it rather vaguely:

I purposely abstain from dates on this occasion, that every one may be at liberty to fix their own, aware that the cure of unconquerable passions, and the transfer of unchanging attachments, must vary much as to time in different people.—I only intreat every body to believe that exactly at the time when it was quite natural that it should be so, and not a week earlier, Edmund did cease to care about Miss Crawford, and became as anxious to marry Fanny, as Fanny herself could desire.

Sir Bertram is delighted by the union of Fanny & Edmund:

It was a match which Sir Thomas's wishes had even forestalled. . . and the joyful consent which met Edmund's application, the high sense of having realised a great acquisition in the promise of Fanny for a daughter, . . . on really knowing each other, their mutual attachment became very strong. After settling her at Thornton Lacey with every kind attention to her comfort, the object of almost every day was to see her there, or to get her away from it.

Fanny has truly become a daughter of Mansfield Park.

[pmath]

Yes, Dr Grant is a wonderful character! Perhaps JA is saying that most of her characters are gluttonous: only Fanny is moderate.

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LizzieAnn wrote:
I think this is a great humorous touch on JA's part. Perhaps she was stressing that no one benefits from greed or gluttony - or any other of the seven deadly sins?

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pmath wrote:

They lived together; and when Dr. Grant had brought on apoplexy and death, by three great institutionary dinners in one week, they still lived together...

Tom was right: see my earlier message, on Chapter 3. What an end! Is JA also making some comment on the other characters in MP here?

[kiakar]

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pmath wrote:
Linda, I think she is indeed a saint! I wonder if JA modeled her after one.

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kiakar wrote:
This is so true, Pmath. Besides always being loving, she is usually honest and not scheming like alot of girls of that time did when a suitor came their way. One they used the word love for but really meant the meal ticket they needed. But Fannie to me, maybe not a saint, but truly did love Edmund and wasn't thinking about who would take care of her down the road. If it was so, she would have taken Henry up on his proposal.

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pmath wrote:
Why is she to be blamed for thinking and feeling as most girls in love would think and feel? To her credit, her actions are always loving.

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Jansten75 wrote:
Fanny has mean and jealous thoughts at hearing from Mary in one letter.

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PMath; you know I have always believed that Jane Austins characterics shine bright in most of her main characters. With Pride and Prejudice, she did not pick the first suitor that came about because she had no feelings for him. And too, I feel maybe Persuasian's Anne, was Jane waiting for Mr. right as Anne was. Or maybe she thought her former financee and she could have made it at another time in life, with no interference from others.

[pmath]

Yes, Linda, I agree that we learn a lot about JA through her heroines: it seems she was a saint herself!

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kiakar wrote:
PMath; you know I have always believed that Jane Austen's characterics shine bright in most of her main characters.

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pmath wrote:
Linda, I think she is indeed a saint! I wonder if JA modeled her after one.

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kiakar wrote:
...Fannie to me, maybe not a saint, but truly did love Edmund and wasn't thinking about who would take care of her down the road. If it was so, she would have taken Henry up on his proposal.

[Laurel]

Good points, Pmath!

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pmath wrote:
Righteous for the most part, perhaps, but not self-righteous, surely: they're always examining themselves! Mary, on the other hand, seems very sure of herself.

Why is virtue boring?

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LizzieAnn wrote:
I think Fanny would have a more interesting life with Henry than with Edmund. To me, Fanny & Edmund make a dull combination as well as a self-righteous one.

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[Melissa_W Moderator]

As I was finishing MP last night, I was continually nagged by a question - I had read the name "Mrs. Norris" in a book recently, but which one? Well, it turns out that Mrs. Norris is also the name of Argus Filch's cat in the Harry Potter books. And the personalities are a little similar - only does what she pleases, has a tendency to upset the characters. Generally unpleasant. Mrs. Norris (cat) even gets pertrified by a basilisk in HP2. What does everyone else think?

[Laurel]

I think you have something there!

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pedsphleb wrote:
As I was finishing MP last night, I was continually nagged by a question - I had read the name "Mrs. Norris" in a book recently, but which one? Well, it turns out that Mrs. Norris is also the name of Argus Filch's cat in the Harry Potter books. And the personalities are a little similar - only does what she pleases, has a tendency to upset the characters. Generally unpleasant. Mrs. Norris (cat) even gets pertrified by a basilisk in HP2. What does everyone else think?

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