MANSFIELD PARK: Chapters 9 - 16

[pmath]

This thread is for our discussion of Chapters 9 through 16 of Jane Austen's Mansfield Park.

I suggest including quotations in each message and chapter numbers in subject lines, to avoid spoilers!

[jd]

Okay - so I hung on until Fanny got some teeth as you all promised she would. The contrast of Fanny's morality and her aunt's is amazing. Fanny is a little too straight still but considering her role models in her aunts she does okay. Her aunts are silly people. Aunt B is a queen ant only good for breeding. Aunt N is a dreamer - in her supposed importance of all things, cannot wait for her demise. The cousins cannot help themselves. The play took up so many pages only to find it not produced. Again - the morality was that the play was inappropriate but why and how??? Unclear still. There were plays in London at the time, and the Baron is no slouch when it came to society, although perferring the home fires. What was wrong with a home production???

[LizzieAnn]

The chapel scene is illuminating.

Henry continues his flirtation with Maria. When jesting about her upcoming marriage, Maria asks Henry if he'd give her away, and he replies:

"I am afraid I should do it very awkwardly," was his reply, with a look of meaning.

Mary Crawford talks derogatorily about the clergy & prayer services, to both Edmund & Fanny's discomfort. When it's revealed that Edmund is about to take order, Mary becomes very disconcerted:

She looked almost aghast under the new idea she was receiving. Fanny pitied her. "How distressed she will be at what she said just now," passed across her mind.

"Ordained!" said Miss Crawford; "what, are you to be a clergyman?"

"Yes; I shall take orders soon after my father’s return— probably at Christmas."

Miss Crawford, rallying her spirits, and recovering her complexion, replied only, "If I had known this before, I would have spoken of the cloth with more respect," and turned the subject.

Could Edmund now seem less interesting?

[LizzieAnn]

Three sets of three go walking. Maria is with Rushworth & Henry Crawford; Edmund is with Mary & Fanny; and Julia is with Mrs. Norris & Mrs. Rushworth. You can't help but think that these trios would prefer being couples.

Mary talks to Edmund about his plans to become a clergyman, continuing to speak poorly about clergymen:

Men love to distinguish themselves, and in either of the other lines distinction may be gained, but not in the church. A clergyman is nothing. and You assign greater consequence to the clergyman than one has been used to hear given, or than I can quite comprehend. One does not see much of this influence and importance in society, and how can it be acquired where they are so seldom seen themselves?

To which Edmund earnestly replies:

We do not look in great cities for our best morality. [This is especially interesting, given that Mary is from the city] and The manners I speak of might rather be called conduct, perhaps, the result of good principles; the effect, in short, of those doctrines which it is their duty to teach and recommend; and it will, I believe, be everywhere found, that as the clergy are, or are not what they ought to be, so are the rest of the nation.

Mary doesn't wish to be convinced of the goodness and purpose of the clergy:

I am just as much surprised now as I was at first that you should intend to take orders. You really are fit for something better. Come, do change your mind. It is not too late. Go into the law.

We begin to see a conflict arising. The trio then sits awhile as Fanny is fatigued; however, Mary & Edmund decide to continue walking on their own, leaving Fanny sitting alone to rest and wait.

[pmath]

...he was not yet so much in love as to measure distance, or reckon time, with feminine lawlessness.

This is an interesting comment on Edmund by JA!

[pmath]

"...the sun shines, and the park looks very cheerful. But unluckily that iron gate, that ha-ha, give me a feeling of restraint and hardship. 'I cannot get out,' as the starling said."

Isn't Maria's quote from Laurence Sterne's A Sentimental Journey more applicable to Fanny's situation in life?

[LizzieAnn]

I always took it as Maria's feelings on her situation & engagement. While Rushworth's assets are what has attracted Maria, they also symbolize her entrapment - the supposed confines of her marriage.

---

pmath wrote:

"...the sun shines, and the park looks very cheerful. But unluckily that iron gate, that ha-ha, give me a feeling of restraint and hardship. 'I cannot get out,' as the starling said."

Isn't Maria's quote from Laurence Sterne's A Sentimental Journey more applicable to Fanny's situation in life?

---

[LizzieAnn]

Fanny has been left for quite a while by herself, and the first people who come upon her as she waits are not Edmund & Mary, but Maria with Henry & Rushworth.

While Rushworth is gone obtaining the key for the gate, Henry "tempts" Maria into not waiting, but instead passing around the locked gate. Their conversation is full of innuendo, flirtation, & challenge. It's left to Fanny to explain their absence to Julia (who had escaped the older women), who followed them, and to Rushworth upon his return.

We also see proof of Rushworth's awareness in his conversation with Fanny before he leaves her to find Maria & Henry:

"Pray, Miss Price, are you such a great admirer of this Mr. Crawford as some people are? For my part, I can see nothing in him" . . . "In my opinion, these Crawfords are no addition at all. We did very well without them."

Eventually, Edmund & Mary return, Fanny tries to comfort herself:

It was evident that they had been spending their time pleasantly, and were not aware of the length of their absence. Fanny’s best consolation was in being assured that Edmund had wished for her very much, and that he should certainly have come back for her, had she not been tired already; but this was not quite sufficient to do away with the pain of having been left a whole hour, when he had talked of only a few minutes, nor to banish the sort of curiosity she felt to know what they had been conversing about all that time; and the result of the whole was to her disappointment and depression, as they prepared by general agreement to return to the house.

[LizzieAnn]

On the whole, I don't think the visit to Sotherton was a satisfactory one.

Maria seems discontented with her lot. She was happy spending time with Henry, and unhappy that he chose Julia as his companion for the trip home.

Rushworth seems discontented with Henry & Maria.

Julia's upset at being overlooked by Henry in favor of Maria. She also

Mary is disconcerted and unhappy to find that Edmund is planning to become a clergyman.

Edmund is unhappy about Mary's reaction to his chosen profession and her thoughts about the clergy.

Fanny is upset about being overlooked by Edmund & Mary, and also in Edmund's interest in Mary.

Henry seems to have muddled through the visit tolerably well, playing games, particularly with Maria & Julia.

Mrs. Norris enjoyed the visit, and that may be due to the items with which she was returning home: cream chese, heath, & pheasant eggs.

[PaulK]

---

LizzieAnn wrote:
On the whole, I don't think the visit to Sotherton was a satisfactory one.

Maria seems discontented with her lot. She was happy spending time with Henry, and unhappy that he chose Julia as his companion for the trip home.

Rushworth seems discontented with Henry & Maria.

Julia's upset at being overlooked by Henry in favor of Maria. She also

Mary is disconcerted and unhappy to find that Edmund is planning to become a clergyman.

Edmund is unhappy about Mary's reaction to his chosen profession and her thoughts about the clergy.

Fanny is upset about being overlooked by Edmund & Mary, and also in Edmund's interest in Mary.

Henry seems to have muddled through the visit tolerably well, playing games, particularly with Maria & Julia.

Mrs. Norris enjoyed the visit, and that may be due to the items with which she was returning home: cream chese, heath, & pheasant eggs.

---

JA has certainly put a lot of balls in the air and the novel grows more interesting as you can start to speculate how things will turn out. However there still isn't a character that is very appealing. I wonder if the structure of the book will have any similarities to P&P in regards to how the plot will slowly build and then have an event that changes everything. In P&P this occurred right in the middle.

[LizzieAnn]

I always found it sad that the Bertram sisters were dreading their father's return from Antigua.

Maria was more to be pitied than Julia; for to her the father brought a husband, and the return of the friend most solicitous for her happiness would unite her to the lover, on whom she had chosen that happiness should depend. It was a gloomy prospect, and all she could do was to throw a mist over it, and hope when the mist cleared away she should see something else.

I've never understood why, if Maria felt this way, she didn't dissolve her engagement. After all, this is not a happy bride-to-be, and the prospect for a happy marriage looks bleak.

Mary Crawford uses Sir Thomas' upcoming return to goad Edmund, commenting that upon his father's return, Edmund will become a clergyman - implying that he is making a sacrifice.

It is fortunate that your inclination and your father’s convenience should accord so well. There is a very good living kept for you, I understand, hereabouts.

Mary continues to be determined on putting Edmund's choice of profession in a poor light. The two of them spar over clergyman and their livings.

It is indolence, Mr. Bertram, indeed - indolence and love of ease - a want of all laudable ambition, of taste for good company, or of inclination to take the trouble of being agreeable, which make men clergymen.

How must Edmund feel to hear the woman he loves speak so of his chosen lot in life?

[LizzieAnn]

Mansfield Park does seem to be written in quite a different vein from her other novels. Particularly, in light of the fact that it was published immediately after Pride & Prejudice. One can't help but wonder if the different tone was a deliberate attempt to write something completely opposite of P&P? Or was it the author stretching her wings? Or did she have something she felt she had to say?

---

PaulK wrote:

JA has certainly put a lot of balls in the air and the novel grows more interesting as you can start to speculate how things will turn out. However there still isn't a character that is very appealing. I wonder if the structure of the book will have any similarities to P&P in regards to how the plot will slowly build and then have an event that changes everything. In P&P this occurred right in the middle.

---

[LizzieAnn]

[Mary] ". . . but I wish you a better fate, Miss Price, than to be the wife of a man whose amiableness depends upon his own sermons; for though he may preach himself into a good–humour every Sunday, it will be bad enough to have him quarrelling about green geese from Monday morning till Saturday night."

"I think the man who could often quarrel with Fanny," said Edmund affectionately, "must be beyond the reach of any sermons."

Fanny turned farther into the window; and Miss Crawford had only time to say, in a pleasant manner, "I fancy Miss Price has been more used to deserve praise than to hear it; . . ."

How praise from Edmund must have pleased Fanny! We're also witness to another side of Mary here - a warmer, kinder, & more compassionate side. She has seen how Fanny is treated by her family as well as the kind of person Fanny is. This comment is a reproachment to her treatment at the hads of the Bertrams. It's also these flashes of compassion that make Mary even more likeable.

Mary leaves Edmund & Fanny together, and:

Edmund looking after her in an ecstasy of admiration of all her many virtues, from her obliging manners down to her light and graceful tread.

"There goes good–humour, I am sure," said he presently. "There goes a temper which would never give pain! How well she walks! and how readily she falls in with the inclination of others! joining them the moment she is asked."

Edmund stays with Fanny, both of them gazing at the stars. Fanny is content having Edmund by her side, until he leaves her, drawn to Mary & the others singing a glee.

. . . she had the mortification of seeing him advance too, moving forward by gentle degrees toward the instrument, and when it ceased, he was close by the singers, among the most urgent in requesting to hear the glee again.

Fanny sighed alone at the window . . ."

[pmath]

IMO, P&P was a fantasy, but MP was closer to reality!

---

LizzieAnn wrote:
One can't help but wonder if the different tone was a deliberate attempt to write something completely opposite of P&P? Or was it the author stretching her wings? Or did she have something she felt she had to say?

[pmath]

Don't you think it was self-imposed, that she could in fact free herself, if she wanted to?

---

LizzieAnn wrote:
I always took it as Maria's feelings on her situation & engagement. While Rushworth's assets are what has attracted Maria, they also symbolize her entrapment - the supposed confines of her marriage.

---

pmath wrote:

"...the sun shines, and the park looks very cheerful. But unluckily that iron gate, that ha-ha, give me a feeling of restraint and hardship. 'I cannot get out,' as the starling said."

Isn't Maria's quote from Laurence Sterne's A Sentimental Journey more applicable to Fanny's situation in life?

[jd]

Isn't that the moral of the story? Picking a mate because of station and purse is getting much. Isn't that what JA is trying to tell us, that this practice is not really working well for anyone? -jd

[PaulK]

---

pmath wrote:
IMO, P&P was a fantasy, but MP was closer to reality!

---

LizzieAnn wrote:
One can't help but wonder if the different tone was a deliberate attempt to write something completely opposite of P&P? Or was it the author stretching her wings? Or did she have something she felt she had to say?

---

I would not go so far as saying P&P is a fantasy but I think you make a good point. P&P had several characters that were a bit extreme starting with Mr. Collins but others also had exaggerated qualities. The characters in MP seem to me closer to reality.

Several times I have have been confused about which character is speaking and had to read a section again. Has anyone else had trouble following the dialogue? Switching between surnames and family names also is a bit confusing. I am enjoying the book as I read more but I do feel it does not flow quite as well as other JA books.

[PaulK]

---

PaulK wrote:

---

pmath wrote:
IMO, P&P was a fantasy, but MP was closer to reality!

---

LizzieAnn wrote:
One can't help but wonder if the different tone was a deliberate attempt to write something completely opposite of P&P? Or was it the author stretching her wings? Or did she have something she felt she had to say?

---

I would not go so far as saying P&P is a fantasy but I think you make a good point. P&P had several characters that were a bit extreme starting with Mr. Collins but others also had exaggerated qualities. The characters in MP seem to me closer to reality.

Several times I have have been confused about which character is speaking and had to read a section again. Has anyone else had trouble following the dialogue? Switching between surnames and family names also is a bit confusing. I am enjoying the book as I read more but I do feel it does not flow quite as well as other JA books.

---

After posting I realized that family name and surname were the same thing. I am sure you know I meant first and family name. I should not post after 11pm.

[Choisya]

I think that we have to bear in mind that P&P was JA's first novel written between 1796-1797 at the early age of 21 and thereby the product of an immature pen. MP was written 16 years later, 1811-1813, when she had more knowledge of the world and perhaps felt braver about saying certain things, despite still being a subjugated woman.

---

PaulK wrote:

---

PaulK wrote:

---

pmath wrote:
IMO, P&P was a fantasy, but MP was closer to reality!

---

LizzieAnn wrote:
One can't help but wonder if the different tone was a deliberate attempt to write something completely opposite of P&P? Or was it the author stretching her wings? Or did she have something she felt she had to say?

---

I would not go so far as saying P&P is a fantasy but I think you make a good point. P&P had several characters that were a bit extreme starting with Mr. Collins but others also had exaggerated qualities. The characters in MP seem to me closer to reality.

Several times I have have been confused about which character is speaking and had to read a section again. Has anyone else had trouble following the dialogue? Switching between surnames and family names also is a bit confusing. I am enjoying the book as I read more but I do feel it does not flow quite as well as other JA books.

---

After posting I realized that family name and surname were the same thing. I am sure you know I meant first and family name. I should not post after 11pm.

---

Message Edited by Choisya on 04-12-200706:20 AM

[Choisya]

I found this piece on 'Lover's Vows' which is pertinent to all the love-stuff in MP which I know all you romantic softies so much like:-

http://klh64.tripod.com/vows/index.html

Although I fear you will be reading it too late as it says:-

'Without such familiarity with 'Lovers Vows' as Miss Austen assumes her readers to possess, a large part of the first voloume of Mansfield Park is not fully intelligible.'

Message Edited by Choisya on 04-12-200706:16 AM