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dulcinea3
Posts: 4,389
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Re: Orlando


KathyS wrote:

dulcinea3 wrote:

Thanks, Melissa!  A word of advice - when you're lying in bed only half awake, keep your hands away from your face, or you might stab yourself in the eye with a fingernail and scratch it badly!  It's awakened all my fears of having something happen to my vision - everything I love to do involves using my eyes!  But it's getting better; just a little swollen and blurry now, and most of the pain is gone.


Good grief, Dulcie, that really must hurt!  I won't ask you how long your fingernails are!  Ha!  I do sympathize with you, a lot. Please get better, I don't want to see you on the sidelines!

 

Kathy


Thanks, Kathy!  Actually, because I'm a computer programmer and work with a keyboard all day, I keep my nails fairly short.  I did even feel up to reading a bit last night, although my eye did feel a bit strained afterwards.  But I can't avoid reading entirely, because I do have to get some work done!  But that's not sustained reading for an hour or so, like I would do for pleasure.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grand Dame of the Land of Oz, Duchess of Fantasia, in the Kingdom of Wordsmithonia; also, Poet Laureate of the Kingdom of Wordsmithonia
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Peppermill
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Re: Orlando

 


dulcinea3 wrote:

KathyS wrote:

dulcinea3 wrote:

Thanks, Melissa!  A word of advice - when you're lying in bed only half awake, keep your hands away from your face, or you might stab yourself in the eye with a fingernail and scratch it badly!  It's awakened all my fears of having something happen to my vision - everything I love to do involves using my eyes!  But it's getting better; just a little swollen and blurry now, and most of the pain is gone.


Good grief, Dulcie, that really must hurt!  I won't ask you how long your fingernails are!  Ha!  I do sympathize with you, a lot. Please get better, I don't want to see you on the sidelines!

 

Kathy


Thanks, Kathy!  Actually, because I'm a computer programmer and work with a keyboard all day, I keep my nails fairly short.  I did even feel up to reading a bit last night, although my eye did feel a bit strained afterwards.  But I can't avoid reading entirely, because I do have to get some work done!  But that's not sustained reading for an hour or so, like I would do for pleasure.


 

Dulcinea -- I am so sorry to hear about your eye troubles!  May it heal rapidly!

 

The closest personal experience to which I can relate the pain you must have experienced was wearing my contacts too long years and years ago.  I can still recall the pain!

 

Take care.

 

Pepper

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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Peppermill
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Re: ORLANDO: Week 4, Chapter 6 and the Novel as a Whole - Writing Style

 


dulcinea3 wrote:

Peppermill wrote:

Sometimes I wish I hadn't gotten so involved in the words of Daughters of the Witching Hill this month, because I could have equally enjoyed pulling and garnering comments on quips from Orlando.

 

For example, from this Chapter 6:

 

"...Surely, since she is a woman, and a beautiful woman, and a woman in the prime of life, she will soon give over this pretense of writing and thinking and begin to think, at least of a gamekeeper (and as long she thinks of a man, nobody objects to a woman thinking)...."  (p.268 in my copy)

 

And it goes on -- and one's mind leaps to D.H. Lawrence, whom Viriginia deems not to name.  :smileyvery-happy:  Or, to continue jumping through history, from Henry VIII's Katherine to our own age's Lady Di.

 

Or, who of us has not done this, although perhaps not with a string of pearls:

 

"...so that several park keepers looked at her with suspicion and were only brought to a favorable opinion of her sanity by noticing the pearl necklace which she wore...."


Pepper, I also immmediately thought that Woolf was referencing Lady Chatterley's Lover!  However, I was surprised to read in the notes that the commentator had originally thought the same thing but later became aware (I believe through the notes to an earlier edition) that Orlando was written earlier than Lawrence's work!


 

Dulcinea -- thank you for catching my faulty (or, more honestly, lack of) fact checking!!! :smileysad:

 

What I find quickly says both were published in 1928.  I wonder what the biographies of Woolf say, i.e., those who have researched her writing closely.  The coincidence is so great that I am suspicious whether someone in the Bloomsbury group had some access to a manuscript draft or at least rumors of it.  But, that is pure conjecture.

 

"Woolf came to know Lytton Strachey, Clive Bell, Rupert Brooke, Saxon Sydney-Turner, Duncan Grant, Leonard Woolf and Roger Fry, who together formed the nucleus of the intellectual circle of writers and artists known as the Bloomsbury Group."   Someone asked a while back what constituted the Bloomsbury Group.  I don't know if anyone responded, but I know I didn't go looking at the time.  The above is from the Wikipedia entry for Virginia Woolf, which I finally just got around to reading and found very interesting.

 

I believe Kathy has read Hermione Lee's biography.  If her wrists are up to it, I hope she can give us an insight or two -- not necessarily on this topic, but on Virginia in general.

 

 

Virginia Woolf  by Hermione Lee

 

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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KathyS
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006

Re: ORLANDO: Week 4, Chapter 6 and the Novel as a Whole - Writing Style

In what I've said about Virginia Woolf, it's been without much reference to where I've found that information. 

 

I have three books, at this time (other than that of VW) from where I've gleaned some of my information.  Yes, I've read the Hermione Lee, Virginia Woolf, biography.  It's a tome!  I read it over months and months, and a lot of the factual information slips out of my head over that length of time.  I found at least 15 references to D.H. Lawrence.  I read a few, last night.  It's taking me time, just to "thumb" through that book....893 pages of text and references!  Give me some time, and I'll get back to these topics.

 

The first book that I read, on Virginia Woolf, was by Katherine Dalsimer.

Virginia Woolf becoming a writer

 

 

This book is probably my favorite.  It is an analytical view of her writing, and showing just who Virginia Woolf was.

 

 

 

 

A couple of months ago, I purchased a book by Ruth Gruber.  I haven't delved into this one at any great length, at this time.  Last night I read some of it, in parts.  A lot of references to Orlando.  This was Dr. Gruber's personal encounter with VW, after she had written this book, her doctoral dissertation on VW, and sent it to VW to read.  The first book on VW, and a first and youngest woman to receive a PhD.  This book first came out in 1935, and again in 2005....it's basically that, what is called, an essay. with letters and the encounter with VW.  It's not all that easy to assimilate a dissertation.

Virginia Woolf 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have other books that deal with Manic Depressive disorders/personalities, suicides, and the connection to the artistic mind.  I've mentioned these books on several  occasions, here on B&NBC, written by Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison.  An authority on this condition, first hand.

 

It has been both an interesting journey, as well as a heartbreaking one, reading about just who VW was; who she thought she was, and who we think she was.  A lot of personal searching [for me], to try and find out why she took her life. 

 

My quest wasn't to really take her writing to task, as I had said, I did let others do that for me.  I simply wanted to know the woman.  I won't go into the precursors to my whys on this subject.  It's all documented, and archived, on Ilana's Lit and Life board.

 

I have ended that journey.  I've come to terms with it.

 

I'll get back here, later today.  I've got errands to run.  My friend has gone on a trip to see her daughter, and her cat needs some attention!  Which is funny, since the cat won't come out of her hiding place!  I'll turn on the TV, give her a little soft cat food, stay for a while...then leave.  Poor cat, she was a rescue, and has abandonment issues! 

 

p.s.  My hands and wrists are still the same....I have meds, so I can ignore them... :smileyhappy:

 

Later,

Kathy


Peppermill wrote:

 


dulcinea3 wrote:

Peppermill wrote:

Sometimes I wish I hadn't gotten so involved in the words of Daughters of the Witching Hill this month, because I could have equally enjoyed pulling and garnering comments on quips from Orlando.

 

For example, from this Chapter 6:

 

"...Surely, since she is a woman, and a beautiful woman, and a woman in the prime of life, she will soon give over this pretense of writing and thinking and begin to think, at least of a gamekeeper (and as long she thinks of a man, nobody objects to a woman thinking)...."  (p.268 in my copy)

 

And it goes on -- and one's mind leaps to D.H. Lawrence, whom Viriginia deems not to name.  :smileyvery-happy:  Or, to continue jumping through history, from Henry VIII's Katherine to our own age's Lady Di.

 

Or, who of us has not done this, although perhaps not with a string of pearls:

 

"...so that several park keepers looked at her with suspicion and were only brought to a favorable opinion of her sanity by noticing the pearl necklace which she wore...."


Pepper, I also immmediately thought that Woolf was referencing Lady Chatterley's Lover!  However, I was surprised to read in the notes that the commentator had originally thought the same thing but later became aware (I believe through the notes to an earlier edition) that Orlando was written earlier than Lawrence's work!


 

Dulcinea -- thank you for catching my faulty (or, more honestly, lack of) fact checking!!! :smileysad:

 

What I find quickly says both were published in 1928.  I wonder what the biographies of Woolf say, i.e., those who have researched her writing closely.  The coincidence is so great that I am suspicious whether someone in the Bloomsbury group had some access to a manuscript draft or at least rumors of it.  But, that is pure conjecture.

 

"Woolf came to know Lytton Strachey, Clive Bell, Rupert Brooke, Saxon Sydney-Turner, Duncan Grant, Leonard Woolf and Roger Fry, who together formed the nucleus of the intellectual circle of writers and artists known as the Bloomsbury Group."   Someone asked a while back what constituted the Bloomsbury Group.  I don't know if anyone responded, but I know I didn't go looking at the time.  The above is from the Wikipedia entry for Virginia Woolf, which I finally just got around to reading and found very interesting.

 

I believe Kathy has read Hermione Lee's biography.  If her wrists are up to it, I hope she can give us an insight or two -- not necessarily on this topic, but on Virginia in general.

 

 

Virginia Woolf  by Hermione Lee

 


 

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Peppermill
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Re: ORLANDO: Week 4, Chapter 6 and the Novel as a Whole - Writing Style

[ Edited ]

Thank you for your comments, Kathy.   Please don't feel any great compunction to provide us anything in particular, just what suits your time and inclinations.

 

I do also have a question for Fozzie and Dulcinea, for which I make the same disclaimer -- only respond if and how it pleases and serves you.

 

First, did I understand you to say that you probably will choose never to read anything else written by Woolf?   If that is true, can or are you willing to explain why and would you elaborate a bit on that why?

 

Wherefrom my question?   First, because, while I do definitely have preferences on writers and given limited time, am quite willing to choose one rather than another,  and have certainly expressed some of my not necessarily positive reactions to writers on this board, there is virtually no writer of whom I would say that I would never revisit her or him.  Second, I feel as if we have endured some fairly trying authors together over the years, but Woolf is the first one for whom I recall having heard this firm aversion or at least turning aside,.  Given the calibre of her work or at least her reputation, whether one likes it or no, your seemingly strong statements seem surprising to me and I am curious as to the emotional and intellectual judgments that may have driven them.  (Curious George, like the children's books I perused today?  I probably shall deserve getting dumped in the sea! :smileyvery-happy:)

 

Incidentally, the Wikipedia article did provide some comments on the negative reactions and why some people have to Virginia's work.

 

And I shall still perversely attempt to convince you to read A Room of One's Own if you haven't already!  :smileysurprised:  (It is really only an essay published in book form; borrow a library copy.)

 

Pepper

 

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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chadadanielleKR
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Re: ORLANDO: Week 4, Chapter 6 and the Novel as a Whole - Writing Style

As for me, Orlando was to easiest book from WV to read: a kind of easygoing fable which stretches across centuries. As some other readers did, I laughed a few times. I thought that this idea of a character who hardly ever age and becomes a woman throughout the centuries was rather original. I am sure some people dreamt about it.  I just read "the Picture of Dorian Gray" and I thought that Orlando, in comparison with Dorian Gray, never worried much about his/looks. She/he just took for granted her/his appearance and tried to think and to behave in accordance with her outside looks so as to fit in the outside world. But basically Orlando is good character whereas Dorian Gray is a bad one whose behavior towards time is quite different. I will say no more because of possible spoilers...

 

The other books from WV that I read were more shapeless and longer. The reader gets caught in her thoughts which some readers do enjoy and other don't. I must admit: I don't, most of the time

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KathyS
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006

Re: ORLANDO: Week 4, Chapter 6 and the Novel as a Whole - Writing Style


Peppermill wrote:

Thank you for your comments, Kathy.   Please don't feel any great compunction to provide us anything in particular, just what suits your time and inclinations.

 


Pepper,

 

A few things come to mind, this morning.  Some personal things, as well. 

 

I looked up all of the D.H. Lawrence references from Hermione Lee's book.  Virginia had never met Lawrence, but she had read his works, over time.  A comparison of Virginia's lack of blatant sexual descriptiveness, to Lawrence's openness, was mentioned; or people Virginia knew, who were friends with Lawrence.  That's the extent of any of these references.

 

I've personally never read Lawrence, so I can't give a comparison.

 

I just now read your Wiki reference, in length.

 

I can't read VW's letter to L, without crying.  My feelings have always been un-contained, where Virginia is concerned.  I have no answers for this, because that's how it was, even before I knew anything about VW, let alone read her work, or knew she committed suicide.  This pre-emotional tie has been beyond my understanding. 

 

I had told Ilana, once, that VW's birthday was four days before mine.  Ilana told me, VW committed suicide on her birthday!  (before I was born).  I've tried to understand the psychological implications to my emotional ties to VW, but it can't, entirely, rationally, be explained.

 

My last comment would be to the scope of her writing, and its effects.  I've only touched the surface, to any of this long list.  I was never told which books to read, or which ones to read first.  I always felt there was a reason for my ordering, and reading of her books, or anything related to her, but at the time, I didn't know what those reasons would be.  I, of course, do know now.

 

I had discussed my own writing, and my reading, with my psychologist.  The last time, was over a year ago.  His opinion, I've always respected.  As long as I've known him, he's always allowed me to make my own decisions.  He's made suggestions over the years, but I'm ultimately the one who has to live with the outcome.

 

The differences between readers, and why some can, and some cannot, read VW, or like her writing style (let alone other writers in her genre).  This is definitely a hard question to answer.  Pepper, you've gotten into the psychology of what makes up the internal workings of our mind. 

 

I think I came the closet to understanding this, when Jim Stallings was a participant on Ilana's board.  Yes, I got emotional when I read Jim's book, and blasted him for his ending of that story!  Boy, was I mad!  He took it very well!  And knowing Ilana, she slipped into the conversation, very carefully....simply to ask what was the matter.  It took me a while to figure out, and some hard looks into my psyche. 

 

There are emotional readers, and there are not.  What makes us emotional?   What gives us our feelings?   It, I think, has a lot to do with our personal history, as well as our genetic make-up.

 

No one can make someone feel something they can't feel.  There are, of course, ways to condition yourself to feel, but it doesn't come easy.  I could never cry around people.  I was shut off from that emotion.  It was a door slamming in my face.  I had to find that key to open that door, with years of psychoanalysis.

 

A lot of my own history, is similar to that of Virginia's, as I later found out.  From deaths, to caziness in the family, to sexual abuse.  Maybe it's this kind of conditioning that takes that creative brain and throws it into overdrive!  For me, I held myself back for so many years, thinking I was never good enough to live up to my mother, or brother's persona.  When you're a child, you don't think of yourself as an individual, just someone who lives with what they have been given to live with.  A warped perspective ensues.

 

This is just some of who I am, and what draws me to someone who loved her art. The lyrical, poetic, passionate, sensual being, who sometimes does show herself as a stream of consciousness, in which some will understand, and some not. The worlds, in which each of us live in, all differ; the views will never be the same.

 

Kathy

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Fozzie
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Re: ORLANDO: Week 4, Chapter 6 and the Novel as a Whole - Writing Style


Peppermill wrote:

I do also have a question for Fozzie and Dulcinea, for which I make the same disclaimer -- only respond if and how it pleases and serves you.

 

First, did I understand you to say that you probably will choose never to read anything else written by Woolf?   If that is true, can or are you willing to explain why and would you elaborate a bit on that why?

 

Wherefrom my question?   First, because, while I do definitely have preferences on writers and given limited time, am quite willing to choose one rather than another,  and have certainly expressed some of my not necessarily positive reactions to writers on this board, there is virtually no writer of whom I would say that I would never revisit her or him.  Second, I feel as if we have endured some fairly trying authors together over the years, but Woolf is the first one for whom I recall having heard this firm aversion or at least turning aside,.  Given the calibre of her work or at least her reputation, whether one likes it or no, your seemingly strong statements seem surprising to me and I am curious as to the emotional and intellectual judgments that may have driven them.  (Curious George, like the children's books I perused today?  I probably shall deserve getting dumped in the sea! :smileyvery-happy:)


I don't know that I said never, because I have tried never to say never because you never know.  :smileyhappy:  However, I have no desire to read anymore by VW, assuming the writing style is the same, which apparently it is.  I thought I was doing well to even read on of her books because I had realized a long time ago that she probably was not an author for me, but this book sounded so interesting that I gave her a shot, it being a historical fiction book.  I try very hard not to read things because I should, but guide my reading on want.  I don't think there is any dispute that VW is an author of great reputation, but that doesn't mean that her work will be universally enjoyed.

 

P.S.  There are many books selected here which I have refused to read (no offense to the author or nominator or voters).  This is why I don't want to belong to a face to face group.  I don't want to have to read a book I don't want to read, period.  This is one area of my life in which I am not at all accommodating to others.  :smileywink:

Laura

Reading gives us someplace to go when we have to stay where we are.
Melissa_W
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Thanks for a great discussion!

Thanks to everyone for a great discussion about VW and Orlando :smileyhappy:  I'll be switching out the threads so we can start Behind the Scenes at the Museum.

Melissa W.
I read and knit and dance. Compulsively feel yarn. Consume books. Darn tights. Drink too much caffiene. All that good stuff.
balletbookworm.blogspot.com
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KathyS
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Re: ORLANDO: Week 4, Chapter 6 and the Novel as a Whole - Writing Style

Laura,

 

I think you are absolutely right.  When it comes to reading, you need to be able to enjoy the moment with that author, and their story.  You tried VW, and that was enough for you.  At least  you tried, and I hope this discussion brought you a little closer to VW, and seeing how she, and each of us, views the world. 

 

I absolutely understand not wanting to read an author, again. I said the same thing, after reading Iris Murdoch's, The Green Knight.  Once was enough.  As analytical as I got with that author, reading her philosophies, as I took her writing/story apart, she didn't speak to me at all.  I tried to find her voice, but it just wasn't there, for me.  There are lots and lots of authors I would never read again!

 

I hope to see you around the town, again, Laura!

 

Kathy

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dulcinea3
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006

Re: ORLANDO: Week 4, Chapter 6 and the Novel as a Whole - Writing Style


Peppermill wrote:

Thank you for your comments, Kathy.   Please don't feel any great compunction to provide us anything in particular, just what suits your time and inclinations.

 

I do also have a question for Fozzie and Dulcinea, for which I make the same disclaimer -- only respond if and how it pleases and serves you.

 

First, did I understand you to say that you probably will choose never to read anything else written by Woolf?   If that is true, can or are you willing to explain why and would you elaborate a bit on that why?

 

Wherefrom my question?   First, because, while I do definitely have preferences on writers and given limited time, am quite willing to choose one rather than another,  and have certainly expressed some of my not necessarily positive reactions to writers on this board, there is virtually no writer of whom I would say that I would never revisit her or him.  Second, I feel as if we have endured some fairly trying authors together over the years, but Woolf is the first one for whom I recall having heard this firm aversion or at least turning aside,.  Given the calibre of her work or at least her reputation, whether one likes it or no, your seemingly strong statements seem surprising to me and I am curious as to the emotional and intellectual judgments that may have driven them.  (Curious George, like the children's books I perused today?  I probably shall deserve getting dumped in the sea! :smileyvery-happy:)

 

Incidentally, the Wikipedia article did provide some comments on the negative reactions and why some people have to Virginia's work.

 

And I shall still perversely attempt to convince you to read A Room of One's Own if you haven't already!  :smileysurprised:  (It is really only an essay published in book form; borrow a library copy.)

 

Pepper

 


Hi Pepper,

 

I think you may be reading too much into what I said.  I don't feel any aversion to Virginia Woolf or her writing.  I quite enjoyed reading Orlando.  I'd have to go back and see if I stated that I would definitely not read any more of her books, no way no how, or whether I just said that I thought it unlikely.  It's just that I have certain genres that I enjoy most, the main ones being mystery and classics (being particularly attracted to 19th-century British novels).  There are others, such as sci-fi fantasy and historical books about the Tudors and that sort of thing, the occasional biography of a Beatle, or things like that.  I don't definitely rule out all other books if they interest me.  I had really enjoyed the movie of Orlando, and since I had never read Woolf, I thought it would be interesting, and it was.  I do not currently feel any strong pull to read other books by her (although that could happen with some authors - if this had been my first Jane Austen novel, I'm sure I would be seeking her others out), and I'm not sure if something will eventually happen to get me to do so, but considering my reading preferences, I'm not sure that it will.  I guess, like Fozzie said, my main interest in reading is for pleasure.  What I was trying to say was that my curiosity about Woolf has now been satisfied.  I liked the book that I read, and am ready to move on.  Sorry, no intellectual or emotional judgment involved!

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chadadanielleKR
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Re: ORLANDO: Week 4, Chapter 6 and the Novel as a Whole - Writing Style

Hi KathyS


KathyS wrote:

Peppermill wrote:

Thank you for your comments, Kathy.   Please don't feel any great compunction to provide us anything in particular, just what suits your time and inclinations.

 


Pepper,

  

I can't read VW's letter to L, without crying.  My feelings have always been un-contained, where Virginia is concerned.  I have no answers for this, because that's how it was, even before I knew anything about VW, let alone read her work, or knew she committed suicide.  This pre-emotional tie has been beyond my understanding. 

 

  

Kathy


 

Just a few lines to tell you that your experience with literature is very moving. I doubt anyone can have such strong feelings towards a writer and his writings. But that's what  makes the infinite wealth of literature: each of us is moved or entertained or saddened or interested or fascinated or... by an aspect of a book willingly or unwillingly created by the author...

 

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Peppermill
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Re: ORLANDO: Week 4, Chapter 6 and the Novel as a Whole - Writing Style

Sorry this will be short -- the sand has almost slipped through my hourglass for the time being!

 

I just want to say a heartfelt thanks to Laura/Fozzie and Dulcinea for their kind and thoughtful responses to my at least somewhat audacious questioning of their earlier posts, which I may have read over strongly.  (I haven't gone back and checked myself; my question was framed from my impression of what I had read.)

 

But, long and short, thank you for a strong discussion.

 

Pepper

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy