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Peppermill
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

Alec -- Thanks for your response. As Melissa reminds us, we must indeed recognize Ms. Austen pre-dates Queen Victoria and Victorian era values, despite however much she may anticipate them. And I suppose we should ask if there has ever been age in which courtship has not been a matter of utmost importance, at least to the marrying portions of the populace.

This site includes assessments of Austen's various novels:

http://www.gale.cengage.com/free_resources/whm/bio/austen_j.htm

Insofar at the Brontes are concerned, you might find interesting Edward Mendelson's chapters on Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre in The Things That Matter, What Seven Classic Novels Have to Say About the Stages of Life sometime. (He also has an interesting chapter on Middlemarch, as well as others on Frankenstein and three novels of Virginia Woolf.) Although I am no particular fan of the Brontes, most of the articles I have read to date suggest that the critics are finding Wuthering Heights more amazing, both in structure and in psychological insight, the more they study it. Some of that is captured in the articles associated with the Norton edition, which span criticism from the days of publication to the present time, but Mendelson certainly reinforces that with the twist he provides on interpretation, i.e., associating WH with mythic and mystic childhood love rather than earthly adult love.

Pepper



edwardhopper wrote [ed.}:
dear pepper,
due to the salient fact that in pride and prejudice the reader finds engrossing dialogue, the epitome (in my eyes) of prose ("discovered the efficacy of poetry in driving away love") and i believe, that no other novel of hers contains such scathing wit as this, though they come close. 30 pages into Mansfield Park, I felt that the plot was more endearing then humorous. Jane Austen poses one conundrum, however. In no novel have i seen romance so pinched, constrained, repressed, and deferred as in Austen's novels. she may very well explore the complexities of romance and amore, but the insularity of country life (as exemplified by the rapacious Mrs. Bennet) is very much unattractive. however, who can truly "blame" her, as she resided during a duration of time in which courting was a matter of the utmost importance, and the Victorian 3 values (affluence, puissance, and being amenable) were instilled in the minds of the female youth at an early age. i declare that the Bronte sisters, though much less profound (also derivative of Austen... Heathcliff- Darcy resemblence?) will render a more quaint, and cozy rendition of a tale than Austen. However, by no means do i abhor Austen, i love her, Harriet Beecher Stowe is a different story.
alec

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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dulcinea3
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008



pedsphleb wrote:
You can go ahead and throw out ideas if you like.  You were in the last Persuasion BNU discussion with Susan, I think, along with Choisya (I was reminded of this while I read through the introduction of my edition - it was written by Susan Ostrov Weisser :smileyvery-happy:)

Everyman wrote:
Edit: I see that Melissa has put all the section threads up already! I don't know whether this means it's okay for those who have read the whole book to start discussing the last section right away, or whether we should follow the reading schedule anyhow.




Me, too!  I remember Susan - I believe she moderated another group I did, as well - Jane Eyre, perhaps?
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dulcinea3
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008



Peppermill wrote:

Insofar at the Brontes are concerned, you might find interesting Edward Mendelson's chapters on Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre in The Things That Matter, What Seven Classic Novels Have to Say About the Stages of Life sometime. (He also has an interesting chapter on Middlemarch, as well as others on Frankenstein and three novels of Virginia Woolf.) Although I am no particular fan of the Brontes, most of the articles I have read to date suggest that the critics are finding Wuthering Heights more amazing, both in structure and in psychological insight, the more they study it. Some of that is captured in the articles associated with the Norton edition, which span criticism from the days of publication to the present time, but Mendelson certainly reinforces that with the twist he provides on interpretation, i.e., associating WH with mythic and mystic childhood love rather than earthly adult love.

Pepper


edwardhopper wrote [ed.}:
dear pepper,
i declare that the Bronte sisters, though much less profound (also derivative of Austen... Heathcliff- Darcy resemblence?) will render a more quaint, and cozy rendition of a tale than Austen. However, by no means do i abhor Austen, i love her, Harriet Beecher Stowe is a different story.
alec




My thoughts as I read alec's post were that in no way would I categorize Wuthering Heights as quaint and cozy, or suggest that it lacks profundity.  It is an amazing novel, and one of my favorites.  I don't believe it is derivative of anything, including Austen.  I find the Brontes to be much more serious than Jane Austen in general.
 
Alec, you might be interested to know that we are reading Agnes Grey next month.
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Melissa_W
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

She did!  I wonder if she anonymously lurks about BNBC...

dulcinea3 wrote:


pedsphleb wrote:
You can go ahead and throw out ideas if you like.  You were in the last Persuasion BNU discussion with Susan, I think, along with Choisya (I was reminded of this while I read through the introduction of my edition - it was written by Susan Ostrov Weisser :smileyvery-happy:)

Everyman wrote:
Edit: I see that Melissa has put all the section threads up already! I don't know whether this means it's okay for those who have read the whole book to start discussing the last section right away, or whether we should follow the reading schedule anyhow.




Me, too!  I remember Susan - I believe she moderated another group I did, as well - Jane Eyre, perhaps?



Melissa W.
I read and knit and dance. Compulsively feel yarn. Consume books. Darn tights. Drink too much caffiene. All that good stuff.
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edwardhopper
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

unfortunately, i will be in camp during this duration of time. however, what are you reading in September? and by quaint and cozy, i mean that Jane Eyre is exponentially more enjoyable (and eminently readable) than any of Jane Austens novels. i recently bought Agnes Grey. try the tenant of wildfell hall- another ann bronte. hopefully, as i am an aspiring author and poet,as i mature, i will be able to convey the complexities of the human soul. i have experience in the region of separation,and persuasion applies very much to me.

alec
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Everyman
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

and by quaint and cozy, i mean that Jane Eyre is exponentially more enjoyable (and eminently readable) than any of Jane Austens novels.

I think that's a judgment that may change as you age. (Or may not. Who knows?)

My own experience is that I found the Brontes more enjoyable when I was younger -- they pack in more events and activities, which appealed to my younger self -- but that as I aged (matured?) I found Austen richer and learned to appreciate her subtlety and sly asides.
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dulcinea3
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

[ Edited ]


edwardhopper wrote:
unfortunately, i will be in camp during this duration of time. however, what are you reading in September? and by quaint and cozy, i mean that Jane Eyre is exponentially more enjoyable (and eminently readable) than any of Jane Austens novels. i recently bought Agnes Grey. try the tenant of wildfell hall- another ann bronte. hopefully, as i am an aspiring author and poet,as i mature, i will be able to convey the complexities of the human soul. i have experience in the region of separation,and persuasion applies very much to me.

alec

There is another thread on the voting for upcoming titles, so you can see what was selected.  I believe the title says through September, but selections were actually made through October.  Off-hand, I know that we are doing Rebecca in August.
 
Personally, I find Jane Austen's novels more enjoyable than the Brontes', because of her sense of humor.  I love the Brontes as well, but their novels, to me, are deeper and darker, more serious than Austen.
 
It's been a while since I have read Anne's novels.  In college, I studied Jane Eyre, Villette, Wuthering Heights, Agnes Grey, and The Tenant of Wildfell Hall (although I had read Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights much earlier, as a preteen).  I have since acquired an omnibus volume of all the novels of Charlotte and Emily (all one of those!), but haven't gotten around to reading Charlotte's other novels yet.  (Agnes Grey was my own suggestion for this reading group, as Anne is not as widely read as her sisters.)


Message Edited by dulcinea3 on 06-02-2008 02:07 PM
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pennmlc
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

thanks for the clarification.  i look forward to reading the entries and sharing my thoughts!
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pennmlc
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

thanks everyman.  will try to contain myself:smileywink:
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Laurel
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

no, no! Let it all out! :smileyvery-happy:

pennmlc wrote:
thanks everyman. will try to contain myself:smileywink:



"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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pennmlc
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

Will Do Laurel!  I found the exchange between Ann and the folks at Uppercross suffocating, much in the same way that the whole PC thing is presently.  Seems that communication is taking a step backward and candidness is no longer appreciated, instead one must drop innuendo.  I feel for Ann, a logical and rational thinker, cast aside as useless and used as an intermediary by folks who can't say what's on their minds.  Can't wait to see her grow!
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edwardhopper
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

thank you for the amusing and intelligent responses. however, we have an enigma. you are reading REBECCA? i have never viewed a more bilious novel! how about we read madame bovary or sentimental education, those, i believe, are beautiful.
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Laurel
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

Good comparison on the PC thing!

pennmlc wrote:
Will Do Laurel! I found the exchange between Ann and the folks at Uppercross suffocating, much in the same way that the whole PC thing is presently. Seems that communication is taking a step backward and candidness is no longer appreciated, instead one must drop innuendo. I feel for Ann, a logical and rational thinker, cast aside as useless and used as an intermediary by folks who can't say what's on their minds. Can't wait to see her grow!



"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
Melissa_W
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

Bilious...never would have viewed Rebecca as bilious. 
 
Incidentally, both Madame Bovary and Sentimental Education were written by Gustave Flaubert who, unless that's a pseudonym I haven't heard of, was male. :smileywink:

edwardhopper wrote:
thank you for the amusing and intelligent responses. however, we have an enigma. you are reading REBECCA? i have never viewed a more bilious novel! how about we read madame bovary or sentimental education, those, i believe, are beautiful.


Melissa W.
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dulcinea3
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

[ Edited ]


pedsphleb wrote:
Bilious...never would have viewed Rebecca as bilious. 
 
Incidentally, both Madame Bovary and Sentimental Education were written by Gustave Flaubert who, unless that's a pseudonym I haven't heard of, was male. :smileywink:

edwardhopper wrote:
thank you for the amusing and intelligent responses. however, we have an enigma. you are reading REBECCA? i have never viewed a more bilious novel! how about we read madame bovary or sentimental education, those, i believe, are beautiful.




Good point, Melissa!:smileyvery-happy:
 
I might be wrong about this, but I think that one of the other groups read Madame Bovary fairly recently.
 
I'm a bit prone to jaundice - do you think I should stay away from the Rebecca discussion?:smileywink:


Message Edited by dulcinea3 on 06-03-2008 10:55 AM
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Melissa_W
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

I think a dose of Mrs. Danvers would clear that up! :smileyvery-happy:

dulcinea3 wrote:
 
I'm a bit prone to jaundice - do you think I should stay away from the Rebecca discussion?:smileywink:


Message Edited by dulcinea3 on 06-03-2008 10:55 AM


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edwardhopper
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

correct you are,i propounded novels that pertained to the lives of women, and i apologize. tell me, however, why you adore rebecca? reading the synopsis it looked like a(gasp!) Dannielle Steel(really induces nausea) novel.i admire female authors for their astute insight, sagacity, prose, and profundity. what about the life of charlotte bronte? or did you like little women? i thought it was decent.
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edwardhopper
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

i have made an unmitigable error. i erroneously believed that we were discussing modern sequels to rebecca,and some of them share the same appellation. however, i realized my fallacy, and i am aware that we are reading the terrifying, prose ladden original. my apologies for my impetuosity, and rearing my potent,non palliated male ego.
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KathyH
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

Hi Choisya!
 
I'm finally back but will be leaving for my annual trip to Chautauqua on 6/18. I read The Diplomat's Wife in two sittings and posted to everything they listed so am ready for another read. I'll pick up Persuasion today.
 
KathyH
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dulcinea3
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Re: PERSUASION: Discussion Schedule June 2008

Since only Melissa posts threads on this forum, I suppose I should only direct this question at her, but would it be possible for some of the discussion topics in the B&N edition to be posted as threads for further discussion?  I don't have that edition, and would be interested in seeing what topics they have.
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