SHIRLEY: Week 1, Chapters 1 - 10 [ Edited ]

[Melissa_W Moderator]

Please use this thread for discussion of Chapters 1 through 10 of Shirley.  Please clearly mark a **SPOILER WARNING** if your post contains information pertaining to plot points later int he novel.

[Melissa_W Moderator]

What do you think about the author's "voice" just jumping in right from the beginning, setting the record straight?

I think Charlotte wanted to be sure that the reader would not be expecting Jane Eyre all over again...but I do think (a little) that a less heavy-handed approach would have worked as well.  But I do like the tone.

[dulcinea3]

Having previously read Jane Eyre and Villette by Charlotte Bronte, this is the first novel by her that I have read that is narrated in third person.  I also find the narration a bit heavy-handed and prone to extensive philosophising.  Although it certainly expresses the views of the narrator(/author), it does tend to get a bit much and a little boring, so I am relieved when she gets to the action and dialogue.

If you think, from this prelude, that anything like a romance is preparing for you, reader, you never were more mistaken. Do you anticipate sentiment, and poetry, and reverie? Do you expect passion, and stimulus, and melodrama? Calm your expectations; reduce them to a lowly standard. Something real, cool, and solid lies before you; something unromantic as Monday morning, when all who have work wake with the consciousness that they must rise and betake themselves thereto. It is not positively affirmed that you shall not have a taste of the exciting, perhaps towards the middle and close of the meal, but it is resolved that the first dish set upon the table shall be one that a Catholic—ay, even an Anglo-Catholic—might eat on Good Friday in Passion Week: it shall be cold lentils and vinegar without oil; it shall be unleavened bread with bitter herbs, and no roast lamb.

I'm not sure that such an opening immediately makes one long to continue reading - who wants cold lentils, vinegar, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs?  But I guess that once you consider it, realism might be preferable to overblown drama.  And, like you say, Melissa, it dashes any expectations of another Gothic like Jane Eyre.

[Peppermill]

As I commented briefly elsewhere, what has struck me most about this novel so is the current relevance of what changes in economic production do to the availability of jobs and how can people cope during those changes and who should have what responsibilities, if any, for mitigating the impacts of those shifts. 

As an avid technologist, I am surprised to find myself with so much sympathy for the Luddites and their successors.  This time around, globalization seems to be as much an issue as technology, but import and export were factors here in Shirley, too.

[dulcinea3]

Good points, Pepper.  Movements in industry that move businesses forward and yet put people out of work has been going on a long time and continues to this day.  Anytime management embraces a trend that cuts the bottom line by cutting labor will cause unrest among those being cut.  Another current trend that is not so technological but produces similar results is outsourcing.  It can be difficult to distinguish whether these movements are in the long run good or bad.

I guess the confrontation between Moore and the delegation could be likened to the near-riot in North and South where Margaret is injured by a thrown rock.  In that case, the labor force were threatening bodily harm to the Irish workers that had been brought in, whereas here they have broken machinery being delivered to the mill.  One difference that I see is that in North and South we were dealing with a large city, so the crowd was very large and the police slow in arriving.  Here, we are only in a village and a small mill, so Moore was able to muster the support he needed in advance and the disturbance was soon contained.

Although Moore spoke sharply and dismissively to William Farren, he really was concerned about him and tried (with some success) to do him good by convincing Yorke to employ him.  This reminds me a bit of Thornton's acquaintance with Higgins, although I think that Thornton took a bit more convincing to determine that Higgins was really a worthwhile person.  I think that Moore was more predisposed to be concerned about the victims of his technological progress.

[Valentini]

Usually, I’m not a fan of narration, especially the narrative commentary in the beginning of Shirley.  A writer should just write the story and good writing will lead the reader appropriately.  However, with that said, I recently read Carson McCullers’ The Heart is a Lonely Hunter and, as a reader, I had a preconceived expectation of the plot; I kept waiting for something positive, uplifting, or inspirational to happen, for, at the very least, one of the characters, and by the end of the novel, I was a little disheartened.  Had I been prepared for the realism of that novel, I may have read it differently, with different expectations.  Nevertheless, it still was worthy read. In Shirley, while I would rather not be told by Bronte what I should and should not expect, I am prepared for its realism.  I see the value of the narrative commentary, even though it took me longer to become immersed in the plotline.  

As a result, I’m looking at the characters and their behavior a little more closely and trying to make more connections between their attitudes and actions and their environment. For example, after reading about Malone, Sweeting, and Donne, I doubted my understanding of “curate.”   At one point in the third chapter, I was glad when Bronte interjected:

I am aware, reader, and you need not remind me, that it is a dreadful thing for a parson to be warlike; I am aware that he should be a man of peace. I have some faint outline of an idea of what a clergyman's mission is amongst mankind, and I remember distinctly whose servant he is, whose message he delivers, whose example he should follow; yet, with all this, if you are a parson-hater, you need not expect me to go along with you every step of your dismal, downward- tending, unchristian road . . .

and

He [Malone} was not diabolical at all. The evil simply was - he had missed his vocation. He should have been a soldier, and circumstances had made him a priest. For the rest, he was a conscientious, hard-headed, hard-handed, brave, stern, implacable, faithful little man; a man almost without sympathy, ungentle, prejudiced, and rigid; but a man true to principle, honourable, sagacious, and sincere. It seems to me, reader, that you cannot always cut out men to fit their profession, and that you ought not to curse them because their profession sometimes hangs on them ungracefully.

After reading Bronte’s commentary, I felt I better understood the actions of the curates and I appreciate the character development more.

[Valentini]

The roles and responsibilities of employers appears as a theme in the first part of the novel.

One aspect I thought would be developed further is the seemingly contrasting characteristics of Yorke and Moore.  In Chapter 4, Bronte seems to set up Yorke (the rescuer of Moore’s “delivery” men) as the “good” employer:

He was much beloved by the poor, because he was thoroughly kind and very fatherly to them. To his workmen he was considerate and cordial: when he dismissed them from an occupation, he would try to set them on to something else, or, if that was impossible, help them to remove with their families to a district where work might possibly be had. It must also be remarked that if, as sometimes chanced, any individual amongst his 'hands' showed signs of insubordination, Yorke - who, like many who abhor being controlled, knew how to control with vigour - had the secret of crushing rebellion in the germ, of eradicating it like a bad weed, so that it never spread or developed within the sphere of his authority.

In Chapter 8, Bronte seems to set up Moore as the “evil” employer when facing the disgruntled men and his treatment of Farren who goes home and thinks:

He concluded that the foreign mill-owner was a selfish, an unfeeling, and, he thought, too, a foolish man. It appeared to him that emigration, had he only the means to emigrate, would be preferable to service under such a master. He felt much cast down - almost hopeless.

However, I was surprised when Moore seeks out Yorke and persuades him to hire Farren as a gardener.  

[Peppermill]

However, I was surprised when Moore seeks out Yorke and persuades him to hire Farren as a gardener. 

I haven't gotten to that yet, but it doesn't surprise me for the way Bronte is developing Moore's character -- basically, kind hearted, but totally tied up in restoring his own integrity (as he envisions such) and financial stability at this point in his life (about thirty, if I remember correctly).

Incidentally, it is such a delight to have new contributors here.  Thank you for joining these discussions!

[dulcinea3]

Moore admits himself that he has a kind of split personality.  At least once in this first section (and again in the second), he makes a distinction to Caroline that he is one person when he is "Robert Gerard Moore", and in that persona only cares about business, and on the other hand, he is also her "cousin Robert", who can be friendly and cheerful, relaxed and happy with his home life.  What he tells Yorke about why he spoke so harshly to Farren shows that he was in "business mode" in order to show no weakness in front of his opponents, although in reality he was concerned about the man:

"...The fellow spoke to me nothing but truth and sense. I answered him just as roughly as I did the rest, who jabbered mere gibberish. I couldn't make distinctions there and then. His appearance told what he had gone through lately clearer than his words; but where is the use of explaining? Let him have work."

Unfortunately, when "Robert Gerard Moore" is present, some people can get quite a mistaken impression of him.  In this instance, Farren went home and brooded, deciding that Moore was a harsh man.  Moore didn't even try to seek him out and tell him that he would try to help him, so Farren would have continued that impression at least until Yorke contacted him about employment, and possibly longer if Yorke does not reveal that Moore had come to him.  Instead of making an ally, Moore seemed to do his best to make an enemy.  Caroline herself has been hurt by Moore when he is in business mode, and it confuses and disheartens her.  When he is kind and affectionate, she begins to think that she has feelings for her, and then when he is at his business and puts her off, she decides she was mistaken and he doesn't care for her at all, and that she was foolish to even hope for such a thing.

[Peppermill]

Here is a picture of the shovel-hat attributed to Mr. Helstone in Chapter VIII:

"Mr. Sykes now addressed Mr. Helstone, who stood on the hearth, his shovel-hat on his head,. watching him significantly with his little, keen eyes."

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Filehovel_hat_%28PSF%29.png

Drawing by Pearson Scott Foresman

shovel hat 
: a shallow-crowned hat with a wide brim curved up at the sides that is worn by some clergymen

"shovel hat." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (7 Jan. 2011).

P.S.  Mr. Helstone apparently did not consider it necessary to remove his hat when coming indoors, a quirk that hit me when I went back to look for "surtout":

"And they were silent; they were transfixed; and so was the invader. He - a personage short of stature, but straight of port, and bearing on broad shoulders a hawk's head, beak, and eye, the whole surmounted by a Rehoboam, or shovel hat, which he did not seem to think it necessary to lift or remove before the presence in which he then stood - he folded his arms on his chest and surveyed his young friends, if friends they were, much at his leisure."  Chapter I, page 10.

[Peppermill]

Another word that threw me for a loop was "surtout", until I learned it was a frockcoat.

"Mr. Donne he favoured with hints about his extreme meagreness, allusions to his turned-up nose, cutting sarcasms on a certain threadbare chocolate surtout which that gentleman was accustomed to sport whenever it rained or seemed likely to rain, and criticisms on a choice set of cockney phrases and modes of pronunciation, Mr. Donne's own property, and certainly deserving of remark for the elegance and finish they communicated to his style."  Chapter I, p. 7 in 1997 Modern Library Edition.

A modern version (the word is apparently still used):

http://www.quartermastershop.com/1872%20and%20on%20US%20Officer/m-1872_officer_overcoat.html

Not certain whether to imagine Mr. Donne in a frockcoat like this or one of the more stylish styles, perhaps with a double breast, since it is an object of Malone's sarcasm.  (For more, search Google for "frock coat" images.)

[Peppermill]

I thought it was an awkward transition in the story (outline) in Chapter 8 when the story jumped from the mill, where the action had occurring, to Farren's home where Mr. Hall. a relatively unknown character at this point, entered.  (To my memory, the transitions in Mrs. Gaskell's North And South were cleaner.)  I understand how Bronte's train of writing could do what she did, but it jarred me as a reader.  I wanted a little more closure on the mill scene before moving to the new setting and other characters so close to the end of the chapter.  (I still need to check out who exactly Mr. Hall is and where he can be expected to fit into the story.)

[zaphiragirl]

This the first novel I read from Charlotte or any of the Bronte sisters. And would like to point out that I also find it a little boring at some parts of the reading...too much descriptions I think would be the one thing I don't like...I'm don't usually mind if the author describes the character physical appareance or every detail of the room or place they are at.

But, it seems that Charlotte liked to leave things clear with the reader...I feel like while other authors give you a little "freedom" while reading for you to imagine things a certain way Charlotte did not, she actually wants the reader to see what she saw when writing...a little well not actually boring but a little exausting yet I've started to like the taste of it...weird.

About the changes in economic production...I  started to read in chapter two and then Peppermill's and Dulcinea's post I found myself a little identified with what Charlotte described "Misery Generates Hate...and so on..." right now in Puerto Rico and actually all over the world there's been tons and tons of families loosing their jobs, some because of technology and evolution in industries and others because of the bad economy right now.

In my family, we've seen ourselves in the worst situation thanks to our goverment's corruption (it might look like a harsh acussation but there is no other word to it) I've seen how happy marriages have been broken because of the stress of not knowing where the money will come from, my mother staying up till midnight and not being able to sleep because of the bills to be payed and myself staying up late too wondering how the heck I'm supposed to pay for college if I can barely pay for my notebooks now...in the mean while my beloved governor's kids go to school safely and do not have to worry if they will be or not accepeted in an university...

so as I read this part [and I think I might read some other about this from what I read in previous comments] I understand almost perfectly the feeling...not just the misery but the impotence as well, the shame, the pain and the biterness.

Thanks to God, I have my beliefs, I have HIm and it's been a lot of help since it has helped me to not come to the extent of hating the people that caused this to my family and many others. I'm still capable of smile and have hope and also i've seen how there is still solidarity and humanity in this world. 

It may not be the same exact situation Bronte brings to the reader, but the feelings she describes are (sort of) the same, proving that when there is lack of money people emotions, personalities and at time perspectives of life change. We ALL need it but not ALL have it

****

I may point out that I went back to the first chapter to see how many words I've been looking up and I lost count when I came to chapter two...not excatly something to be proud of but it made me laugh my lungs out to see how many words  I did not know and here I was thinking I had almost mastered english... Ha!

[Peppermill]

A bit from Wikipedia about Chenier, the poet Caroline reads:

"André Marie Chénier (30 October 1762 – 25 July 1794) was a French poet, associated with the events of the French Revolution of which he was a victim. His sensual, emotive poetry marks him as one of the precursors of the Romantic movement. His career was brought to an abrupt end when he was guillontined for alleged 'crimes against the state', just three days before the end of the Reign of Terror. Chénier's life has been the subject of Umberto Giordano's opera Andrea Chénier and other works of art."

"The poet  Jose Maria de Heredia held Chénier in great esteem, saying 'I do not know in the French language a more exquisite fragment than the three hundred verses of the Bucoliques' and agreeing with Sainte-Beuve's judgment that Chénier was a poet ahead of his time. Chénier has been very popular in Russia, where Alexandr Pushkin wrote a poem about his last hours and Ivan Kozlov translated La Jeune Captive, La Jeune Tarentine and other famous pieces. Chénier has also found favor with English-speaking critics; for instance, his love of nature and of political freedom has been compared to Shelley, and his attraction to Greek art and myth recalls Keats."

Wonder if Chenier was a favorite of the Bronte sisters, who wrote some poetry together, if I recall correctly.

[zaphiragirl]

---

Valentini wrote:

Usually, I’m not a fan of narration, especially the narrative commentary in the beginning of Shirley.  A writer should just write the story and good writing will lead the reader appropriately.  However, with that said, I recently read Carson McCullers’ The Heart is a Lonely Hunter and, as a reader, I had a preconceived expectation of the plot; I kept waiting for something positive, uplifting, or inspirational to happen, for, at the very least, one of the characters, and by the end of the novel, I was a little disheartened.  Had I been prepared for the realism of that novel, I may have read it differently, with different expectations.  Nevertheless, it still was worthy read. In Shirley, while I would rather not be told by Bronte what I should and should not expect, I am prepared for its realism.  I see the value of the narrative commentary, even though it took me longer to become immersed in the plotline.  

As a result, I’m looking at the characters and their behavior a little more closely and trying to make more connections between their attitudes and actions and their environment. For example, after reading about Malone, Sweeting, and Donne, I doubted my understanding of “curate.”   At one point in the third chapter, I was glad when Bronte interjected:

I am aware, reader, and you need not remind me, that it is a dreadful thing for a parson to be warlike; I am aware that he should be a man of peace. I have some faint outline of an idea of what a clergyman's mission is amongst mankind, and I remember distinctly whose servant he is, whose message he delivers, whose example he should follow; yet, with all this, if you are a parson-hater, you need not expect me to go along with you every step of your dismal, downward- tending, unchristian road . . .

and

He [Malone} was not diabolical at all. The evil simply was - he had missed his vocation. He should have been a soldier, and circumstances had made him a priest. For the rest, he was a conscientious, hard-headed, hard-handed, brave, stern, implacable, faithful little man; a man almost without sympathy, ungentle, prejudiced, and rigid; but a man true to principle, honourable, sagacious, and sincere. It seems to me, reader, that you cannot always cut out men to fit their profession, and that you ought not to curse them because their profession sometimes hangs on them ungracefully.

After reading Bronte’s commentary, I felt I better understood the actions of the curates and I appreciate the character development more.

---

I did happen to encounter a similiar situation, but it seems to be that at some point either the characters (curates)  will change their ways or Charlotte won't be giving them so much attention to their actions...I think of it that way when later on she says:

" if you are a parson-hater,  you need not expect me to go along with you every step of your dismal, downward- tending,unchristian road; you need not expect me to join in your deep anathemas, at once so narrow and so sweeping, in your poisonous rancour, so intense and so absurd, against ‘the cloth;’ to lift up my eyes and hands with a Supplehough, or to inflate my lungs with a Barraclough, in horror and denunciation of the diabolical rector of Briarfield...."

So does that means Charlotte wont be giving us any more contradictory (that's my view of it) personalities as for the curates or maybe just with Malone that is??

******

Something that is also clicking on me with this character Malone is that he seems to be despised by almost everyone just like Moore and yet they seem to dispise each other. ironic.

Right now I'm on chap. 4 I hope I'll be at least at chap. 6 or 7 by night. Reading about Mr. Yorke I'm starting to like a the man a little he seems to be the side of Moore that's been buried by the ambition and greed of bringing back the 'emporioum' his family had. Or maybe I'm wrong and they are two opposite poles that will never have something in common....(looking foward to figure that out...)

[Peppermill]

I was reading in Chapter 10 this morning, and finally quit amidst Caroline's visit with Miss Mann, asking myself whether I really care about this relationships that seem so unlike the ones that I encounter today.  Is there anyone to whom I could ascribe similar attitudes and actions as those of Mr. Helstone, Mr. and Mrs. Yorke, Miss Mann?  Yes, I know biases towards women such as Helestone exhibits still exist, but women themselves have wrested power regards their own lives, at least in our world, in ways that have changed the impact of those attitudes forever.  Why does this feel to me like a period piece, at least along those dimensions, rather than as insight into the present out of the past?

I was also slightly irritated by the way Bronte describe the lives of the Yorke children, in some cases showing the future, in others, withholding it.  It seemed an abuse of Bronte's privilege as an omniscent narrator to me.

Reactions, comments to my venting, please. 

(I find myself contrasting the insights Bronte gives us with those of Alice Munro -- Munro's are no more comfortable, but somehow they seem to belong more to the 21st century.  We all know the timelessness of great literature; what I am trying to ask, why does Shirley seem to lack that timelessness -- is there something I am missing, or is there something about the writing itself?)

I do like that the characters are quite "rounded," self-contradictory as well as self-consistent in their depiction and their actions.  I get annoyed with Bronte's narrative diversions into little philosophical or political treatises, which may or may not be defensible, but don't seem to be necessarily integral to the story that is unfolding.  Or, at least, get out of the way and let the characters and the plot make the point, rather than an almost sermon.

[zaphiragirl]

---

Peppermill wrote:

I was reading in Chapter 10 this morning, and finally quit amidst Caroline's visit with Miss Mann, asking myself whether I really care about this relationships that seem so unlike the ones that I encounter today.  Is there anyone to whom I could ascribe similar attitudes and actions as those of Mr. Helstone, Mr. and Mrs. Yorke, Miss Mann?  Yes, I know biases towards women such as Helestone exhibits still exist, but women themselves have wrested power regards their own lives, at least in our world, in ways that have changed the impact of those attitudes forever.  Why does this feel to me like a period piece, at least along those dimensions, rather than as insight into the present out of the past?

I was also slightly irritated by the way Bronte describe the lives of the Yorke children, in some cases showing the future, in others, withholding it.  It seemed an abuse of Bronte's privilege as an omniscent narrator to me.

Reactions, comments to my venting, please. 

(I find myself contrasting the insights Bronte gives us with those of Alice Munro -- Munro's are no more comfortable, but somehow they seem to belong more to the 21st century.  We all know the timelessness of great literature; what I am trying to ask, why does Shirley seem to lack that timelessness -- is there something I am missing, or is there something about the writing itself?)

I do like that the characters are quite "rounded," self-contradictory as well as self-consistent in their depiction and their actions.  I get annoyed with Bronte's narrative diversions into little philosophical or political treatises, which may or may not be defensible, but don't seem to be necessarily integral to the story that is unfolding.  Or, at least, get out of the way and let the characters and the plot make the point, rather than an almost sermon.

---

I just finally finished chapter 10!!!!!!! YAY!! Really that was a miracle! (road trips to the other side of  my little island are blessing!) I almost fell asleep while reading chapters 9 and 10 thought in chapter 10 I can only coment to you that I  think Bronte's intention of that chapter was to simply show the reader how was Caroline coping with leting go of Mr. Moore and trying to stop thinking so much about him.

That's all I have to say for that. As for Bronte's narrative is killing me in many ways I reaaally dislike her 'reader this reader that' and the way she jumps out of a situation to another or simply puts a pause on a current scene to go describing a character...drives me crazy! As for giving then hints of the future it's just something you don't expect...I mean a spoiler from the author!? Please! Yet...I still slightly liking her stroy line bit by bit. 

*****************************************

I would like to correct two things on my previous posts...first:

It seems to be there is poverty and need in both sides...so while Mr. Moore looks so much like my devilish governor to the Yorkshire community he is also broken in more or less the same ways his ex-workers are. Also, to point out because of Moses' and the worker actions that no matter how extreme or stressful the situation might be, violence (in any ways) doesn't helps the situation.

Secondly...As for Moore and Yorke they are'friends'!!? Yikes wasn't really expecting that one there (wich means till now that both of my inquiries were far wrong) but I don't dislike it either....I loved Yorke's children especially Jesse. the contradictory quality in her characters still remains mostly untouched...giving me the hint it will through all book. Lord!

I got the cool and romantic as Monday morning feeling downright set when Moore so politely let Caroline now his intentions of not marrying for love but for money and her way of taking it as it was presented and leaving it at that. Cool as snow.

Well...let's see what Bronte has for us in the chap 11. Just like Pepper I would like to recieve comments (if you'd like to) about my posts and at times weird comments. Thank you!

[Peppermill]

Zaphira -- I am enjoying your comments!  They seem so fresh and youthful, whereas mine feel a bit weary and timeworn -- that is how this novel is affecting me.

I think that it is very sad that Caroline's only occupational option is basically to be a governess.  What a restrictive world for women!  Thank goodness our grandmothers, mothers, and sisters (i.e., about the last three generations) have broken many barriers, although there are certainly many more to go.  (With the assistance of many men and of changed economic conditions and of the acceptability of divorce, to name a few more factors.)

I did rather enjoy the character of Miss (dare I say "Ms.") Ainley at the end of Chapter 10.  But then there is the (dreadful) romantic beginning of Chapter 11, with dear Caroline pining her sweet little heart away.

[zaphiragirl]

Thanks Pepper!! I don't find your comments weary, actually analyzed, like you are not simply reading and formulating 'good' comments but that you are actually analyzing your way through the reading...I love when I see that some people read to say they did so!

For Caroline I'm starting to feel sympathy but I pity her silent and a little conformist spirit. She is to be a governess and only dreams of 'if I were to be a boy' So different today, where we women are the motor of this society...economically and practically everyway speaking...still like you said many barriers awaits for us to break.

I fear that Caroline will be set aside and that, Shirley (Who I haven't met yet! ) will be taking Moore's heart away. Something I wish doesn't happens and that actually Caroline finds herself not able to cope with the society barriers and fights for what she deserves!!...but since Bronte talked about cool all the way...doing that twist in the story will be just the cool I expect and fear 

[zaphiragirl]

I forgot I wanted to share this video from my beloved Isabel Allende! Tales of Pasion...here she points out a few feminists points and topics I think might go with our reading of Shirley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E11cDEr272Y