Chapter 6: The Hamley Household [ Edited ]

[Peppermill]

Lines that said a lot:

"...he [the Squire] was shaking Molly's hand with vehement friendliness, intended to make up for his not knowing her at first.'

"...till all at once she popped off, as one may say.'"  (Ah, the bluntness of the Squire.) 

"...the pleasant conviction that he [Mr. Gibson] could not rest till he had come over to see how she was going on in her new home, stole into her heart, although he spoke but little to her, and that little was all in a joking tone." 

"...prolonged because the squire liked it..."

"On this first morning he put aside his newspapers - one an old established Tory journal, with all the local and county news, which was the most interesting to him; the other the Morning Chronicle, which he called his dose of bitters, and which called out many a strong expression and tolerably pungent oath." 

"They [Molly and the Squire] were very polite to each other during the meal; and it was not a little tiresome to both."

"...the library windows had been boarded up to avoid paying the window-tax."

"...watched her protectingly on her way along the field-paths."  (What a sense of responsibility and fondness for this girl he deemed inappropriate for romance with his sons!)

"...To be sure, a step-mother to a girl is a different thing to a second wife to a man!' 

Message Edited by Peppermill on 05-04-2009 02:55 PM

[Melissa_W Moderator]

Roger Hamley arrives home bringing with him the bad news that Osborne has not done well on his exams, placing low rather than in contention for a Chancellor's medal.  Molly is of the opinion that Roger ought not to have conveyed such news and decides not to like him very much; Roger is indifferent to Molly.  "Altogether it was pleasanter before [Roger] came home."

Meanwhile, circumstances are working to alter Molly's established household arrangement.  Lady Cumnor is persuaded to return to Cumnor Towers and engage Clare (Mrs. Kirkpatrick) while her youngest daughter finishes out her visit in town.  While the family discusses Mrs. Kirkpatrick's situation (she has a school at Ashcombe) Lord Cumnor comes in and offhandedly throws Mr. Gibson's name in as a suitable match for Mrs. Kirkpatrick.  While her ladyship pointedly states that she is not a match-maker, the match does make sense; after all, Mr. Gibson is middle-aged and a widower.  The familiy goes on to converse about other subjects.

Mrs. Kirkpatrick is very happy to accept Lady Cumnor's invitation to the Towers; it will lessen her expenses during the summer holiday (Mrs. Kirkpatrick muses on how the Cumnors never worry about the cost of an item while Mrs. Kirkpatrick must always determine how much an object will cost not just to purchase but to wash, etc).  Lady Cumnor has a rather languid illness of sorts and, after a time, Mr. Gibson is called to consult.  Mr. Gibson has already been lunching with Lord Hollingford, the eldest son of the Cumnors - a scientifically minded man and a widower as well; it is Lord Hollingford who puts the idea of re-marriage into Mr. Gibson's head.

It is during his visit to Lady Cumnor that Mr. Gibson begins to think about Mrs. Kirkpatrick; he remembered her as very pretty during her time as the Cumnor's governess and she is a widow with one daughter now.  However, his concentration on the matter is diverted to treating Lady Cumnor so he doesn't think much more on the subject of matrimony.  Lord Cumnor has; in a letter to her ladyship he wonders how "Clare and Gibson are getting on" and noting that a little matchmaking might be good for Lady Cumnor.  Mrs. Kirkpatrick was reading the letter aloud so she knows the contents as well.

While Lady Cumnor naps, Mrs. Kirkpatrick muses on the idea of re-marriage, the future husband taking the shape of Mr. Gibson, and Mr. Gibson appears to look in on Lady Cumnor.  He beckons Mrs. Kirkpatrick out of the room (she wonders whether he will offer) and he does.  She accepts (she will no longer have to work for a living).

The next morning Mr. Gibson rides over the Hamley to tell Molly of the upcoming marriage.  Molly is very happy to see him; she asks if she may come home soon but her father diverts the question by telling her he has news.  Molly guesses his news - he is going to be married - and she is upset.  She incorrectly assumes that her visit to Hamley was planned to get her out of the house so her father could court Mrs. Kirkpatrick; this upsets her father who abruptly leaves, telling her that once she thinks it over she will understand his one motive was for Molly's happiness.

Molly runs out in the garden to have a good cry - now she feels ashamed that she hurt her father's feelings - and she is found by Roger Hamley.  He helps her back to the house and tells her a story about a young woman who put aside her own feelings to help her father in his remarriage and all worked out well for that young lady.  Molly runs up to her room and Roger tells Mrs. Hamley about Mr. Gibson's news (Mr. Gibson had not stopped to speak with Mrs. Hamley); Molly rather bravely appears and blurts out her news to Mrs. Hamley who comforts her.  Roger makes up a little presentation of his morning's biological gatherings to show his mother and Molly comes too, which was his hope, and he cheers her up by explaining all about his specimens.

Molly intends to apologize to her father when he comes the next morning but Mr. Gibson doesn't like emotional demonstrations; he knows she is sorry and lets her off by saying he knows what she wants to tell him.  He also brings an invitation from Lady Cumnor to spend next Thursday at the Towers to acquaint herself with Hyacinth (Mrs. Kirkpatrick). 

What do you think of this idea of Mr. Gibson's to marry Mrs. Kirkpatrick?  It seems very quickly hatched and not well thought-out; more a knee-jerk response than anything else.  Molly is nearly seventeen and there is a massive contrast between Molly and Emma Woodhouse of our previous selection; at twenty, Emma had been running the household for quite some time while Molly doesn't seem to have assumed much of the day-to-day tasks.  She is very childlike.

[Melissa_W Moderator]

Mrs. Kirkpatrick has her own ideas; she is determined to marry as soon as convenient and not go through the trouble of having Cynthia, her daughter, come back for the wedding, whatever Mr. Gibson or Lady Cumnor thinks.  The couple decides to marry at Michaelmas (Mr. Gibson is determined that both Molly and Cynthia will stand bridesmaids).

Molly dully makes her visit to the Towers (Mrs. Hamley makes sure Molly is wearing her quaint white muslin rather than the appalling plaid silk); Molly is a bit put off by Mrs. Kirkpatrick's manner, this may be more due to Molly's feelings on the marriage in general, but tries her best to be good, even when Mrs. Kirkpatrick seems bent on changing Mr. Gibson's habits, i.e. the opinions on taking bread and cheese.  Molly is introduced to Lady Cumnor as Mrs. Kirkpatrick's "dear little daughter" - thankfullly, Lady Cumnor puts a stop to any silliness like that but then horrifies both parties by suggesting Molly should live at Ashcombe with Mrs. Kirkpatrick prior to the marriage.  For his part, Lord Cumnor is quite pleased at having made a match between his physician and his former governess (the conversation with Lady Cumnor brings up the "immoral" poet Byron; I get the feeling the earl likes Byron while his wife does not).  Molly returns to Hamley (where the squire is regretting his words about remarrige since they seem like an ill-omen now); Molly has become quite friendly with Roger Hamley and he also finds that he likes his part as her mentor.

Mr. Gibson is still for Cynthia coming home for the wedding and gives Mrs. Kirkpatrick 15 pounds for the purpose; however, she wangles a letter out of the French headmistress that seems to advise against Cynthia leaving school and, because Mr. Gibson is not proficient at French, Mrs. Kirkpatrick gets her way.  She also uses the money given her by the Cumnors to pay her debts in Ashcombe rather than for her trousseau; her school has not been successful.  In the meantime, Mr. Gibson has approached the Miss Brownings about overseeing the redecorating of his home (about 100 pounds worth); he also arranges for Molly to stay with the Brownings in the days prior to the wedding.  Molly's removal from Hamley is a relief to the squire, who was afraid of funny business when Osborne arrived home, but the whole family misses Molly when she is gone.  Molly tries to be good, and overlook the coarser manners of the Miss Brownings, but gets into a verbal sparring match with the elder Miss Browning over her supposed fancy for Roger Hamley.

The night before the wedding Mr. Gibson and Molly drive over to Ashcombe; they are welcomed at the Manor-house by the estate agent, Mr. Preston, whom Molly finds to be a bit on the pompous and over-solicitous side (he seems to live like an earl at the earl's expense).  Lord Cumnor and Lady Harriet escort Molly to the church (Lady Harriet is the other bridesmaid) and the whole ceremony is over in ten minutes.  Lady Harriet and Molly are left alone for much of the day, leaving Molly wondering at her aristocratic companion's hypocritical manners although Lady Harriet does give good warning about not walking alone in the garden with Mr. Preston; Lady Harriet also promises to loan Molly a number of novels by Maria Edgeworth.  When they drive back to the Towers, Molly opts for going straight back to the Brownings; Molly chastizes Lady Harriet for calling the Miss Brownings names and Lady Harriet apologizes, promising to call on Molly there.

Molly soon receives a visitor - Roger Hamley; he has come with a note from Mrs. Hamley and a wasps-nest he has promised to Molly.  The note contains an invitation to visit for the day with Mrs. Hamley as the men in the family are going to an agricultural meeting.  While Molly visits with Mrs. Hamley Osborne returns to the hall; he has no real interest in the meeting and felt it best to come home.  Molly compares the original with her idealized version of Osborne; he is somewhat less a Homeric hero than Molly imagined, but she likes him all the same.  Roger and the squire return as well, having looked all over for Osborne; Roger asks if she likes the Huber but Molly hasn't made much progress because the Miss Brownings keep her very busy.  Roger promises to check on her progress when he comes to visit the new Mrs. Gibson.

Molly returns to the Brownings to find Miss Browning in a tizzy - Lady Harriet called while Molly was at Hamley and Miss Browning relates the visit in a very comical manner.  Lady Harriet seems to have made good on her promise to be more respectful of Molly's class.

[dulcinea3]

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pedsphleb wrote:

(now that I've had 48 hrs without an email from my boss I think it's safe to think about books again)

These two chapters relate Molly's family history, how her father came to be the Hollingford physician, and make-up of the Gibson household and neighbors.  There are some interesting characters - even some background added to the Miss Brownings (if they were single, and the vicar's daughters, sixteen years prior to Molly's visit to Cumnor towers then I think we can understand why the Miss Brownings remain single).  What do you make of Molly's companion/governess - Miss Eyre?

Squire and Mrs. Hamley are introduced in these chapters (bringing to mind a kinder version of Sir Thomas and Lady Bertram); why do you think Mrs. Hamley seems to fixate on having a visit from Molly?

We are also acquainted with Mr. Gibson's two apprentice-boarders, Mr. Wynne and Mr. Coxe, which provides us with the rather comical exchange between Mr. Gibson and Major Coxe as to Mr. Coxe's position with the Gibson family (yes, being the younger apprentice Mr. Coxe must make up the pills). 

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I didn't really take too much notice of Miss Eyre.  She didn't seem a particularly important figure in the story.  She seemed to be a patient, kind, woman.  She tried to do what Mr. Gibson had asked her to do, as far as making tea for the young men and engaging them in conversation, and educating Molly only in the subjects that her father requested, and she endured Betty's unkindnesses without complaining and even tried to teach Molly to not have such a temper when Molly tried to defend her.

I did think that the selection of the name was interesting, as this novel was written after Jane Eyre, and the authors were good friends.  I wonder what Charlotte Bronte thought of the selection of the name Eyre for Molly's governess - perhaps it was a kind of tribute to Bronte.

I also thought that Mr. Gibson's reluctance to have Molly educated was interesting; he almost didn't even want her to learn to read and write!  According to the notes in my B&N edition, Mrs. Gaskell was raised as a Unitarian, and was accordingly given a good education, as that sect believed in for women.  Gibson is one of her most sympathetic characters, and yet she imbues him with the more prevalent notion that women should not be particularly educated, which goes against her own beliefs.

I think that Mrs. Hamley must be rather lonely, and so is eager for Molly to visit.  She has only sons, and no daughter to be a companion to her.  The boys are away at Cambridge, and the Squire is more of an outdoorsy type.  He loves his wife dearly, but he is uneducated and cannot converse with her on literature and the kinds of things that interest her.  He doesn't like to socialise, so they don't see much of other people or entertain.  Also, being an invalid, Mrs. Hamley can't do very much or get about.  Having a young lady as a guest, who can sit and read with her and the like, will be very pleasant.

As for young Mr. Coxe, and the conversation about his duties that took place between Mr. Gibson and Major Coxe, I was glad to have the explanatory notes in my edition, which explained a somewhat different interpretation of the following passage than many might assume:

'To be sure. The youngest apprentice always does. It's not hard work.
He'll have the comfort of thinking he won't have to swallow them
himself. And he'll have the run of the pomfret cakes, and the conserve
of hips, and on Sundays he shall have a taste of tamarinds to reward
him for his weekly labour at pill-making.'

This sounds like Mr. Coxe will be compensated for the apparently distasteful task of making pills by various good things to eat.  However, pomfret cakes, hips, and tamarinds were actually medecines or ingredients used in them!  Nice play on words on Mr. Gibson's part!  And, "Major Coxe was not quite sure whether Mr. Gibson was not laughing at
him in his sleeve."

[dulcinea3]

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pedsphleb wrote:

Mr. Gibson has determined that Molly will visit the Hamleys - forthwith.  The sudden decision was made because Mr. Coxe (rather stupidly) tried to send Molly a love-letter through the house-maid Bethia (who gets sacked for her trouble) and the letter was intercepted by Mr. Gibson.  Do you think Mr. Gibson was correct - he fires the maid but keeps the apprentice - or do you think he has other motivations?

Molly is to leave by the afternoon; she is quite confused by the turn of events.  She even has to go to the local dressmaker to get a frock made up - Bessy has made all her clothes in the past - because she doesn't have anything fit for dinner (causing Mr. Gibson to remark he wishes girls could be dressed as boys).  The Hamley's carriage comes to fetch Molly and Mr. Gibson has sharp words for Mr. Coxe when he is caught gazing after the carriage.

Mrs. Hamley is very pleased to see Molly - she determines they will be great friends.  She describes the Hamley's two boys to Molly; Osborne is obviously his mother's favorite, while Roger seems to be Squire Hamley's.  At dinner the squire makes an offhand comment that the community had expected Mr. Gibson to remarry after the death of Molly's mother and Molly fixates on the comment.  Molly quickly settles into a pleasant routine with the Hamleys - they have a nice library and one of the first things Molly reads is Bride of Lammermoor - and her two week visit is extended; Miss Eyre is needed to care for ill relatives and Mr. Gibson asks Mrs. Hamley if Molly may stay longer and the idea is enthusiastically received.

But not by Squire Hamley - Molly will still be with them when the Hamley's sons will arrive home from Cambridge and he doesn't want the boys falling in love with Molly.  He determines he will speak with Osborne on the subject (which seems to me he puts the cart before the horse at this point).  In the end, only Roger will come home because Osborne has been invited to visit a friend near Cambridge.  Molly happily continues her stay with the Hamley's settling in nearly as the daughter of the house rather than a visitor. 

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I think that Mr. Gibson was perhaps harsh with the maid.  This was the first offense, and I suppose he could have just given her a warning.  Although, if she were to repeat it, she might be more successful in concealing it, which could lead to serious problems.  I'm not surprised that Mr. Gibson does not dismiss Mr. Coxe.  He has taken him into apprenticeship as a favor to a good friend who is (I think) out of the country, and so he feels some responsibility towards the boy.

Although Roger is certainly much more like his father than Osborne, I don't think he is his favorite.  I think that Osborne is the favorite of both.  They both think that he is a genius and expect great things from him.  I do think that the Squire's favoritism arises principally from the fact that Osborne is the heir, and the Squire has such family pride, rather than that he finds Osborne to be a better companion, but I still think that he favors Osborne over Roger.

I find the relationship between the Squire and Mrs. Hamley and Molly to be quite charming.  They both really do enjoy having her around (always with the caveat that the Squire doesn't want either of his sons entangling himself with her), and you have to feel that they would have loved to have had a daughter in addition to their sons.  They're so kind to her, and she becomes very fond of both of them, as well.  Although she was so sorry at first to be sent from home, she is really delighted to have her stay with them lengthened.  As long as her father visits from time to time, of course.

[Peppermill]

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dulcinea3 wrote:

I find the relationship between the Squire and Mrs. Hamley and Molly to be quite charming.  They both really do enjoy having her around (always with the caveat that the Squire doesn't want either of his sons entangling himself with her), and you have to feel that they would have loved to have had a daughter in addition to their sons.  They're so kind to her, and she becomes very fond of both of them, as well.  Although she was so sorry at first to be sent from home, she is really delighted to have her stay with them lengthened.  As long as her father visits from time to time, of course.

---

It added poignancy for me to the relationship between Molly and the Hamley's when I discovered they lost a daughter named Fanny.  (My apologies if this revelation is after Chapter 14 -- I have not gone back to check.)

Does anyone else notice that Gaskell seems to explore the faces of grief in W&D?  I can't decide if she does this consciously, or because it is simply embedded in the stories she is weaving together in this novel.

Message Edited by Peppermill on 05-08-2009 09:50 AM

[Choisya]

Peppermill wrote:

Does anyone else notice that Gaskell seems to explore the faces of grief in W&D?  I can't decide if she does this consciously, or because it is simply embedded in the stories she is weaving together in this novel.

Perhaps because she was dying when she wrote W&D?  There is an extract here from The Language of Illness and Death and the Silencing of Truth in Wives and Daughters (Item 376) which throws some light on this subject P.

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dulcinea3 wrote:

I find the relationship between the Squire and Mrs. Hamley and Molly to be quite charming.  They both really do enjoy having her around (always with the caveat that the Squire doesn't want either of his sons entangling himself with her), and you have to feel that they would have loved to have had a daughter in addition to their sons.  They're so kind to her, and she becomes very fond of both of them, as well.  Although she was so sorry at first to be sent from home, she is really delighted to have her stay with them lengthened.  As long as her father visits from time to time, of course.

---

It added poignancy for me to the relationship between Molly and the Hamley's when I discovered they lost a daughter named Fanny.  (My apologies if this revelation is after Chapter 14 -- I have not gone back to check.)

Does anyone else notice that Gaskell seems to explore the faces of grief in W&D?  I can't decide if she does this consciously, or because it is simply embedded in the stories she is weaving together in this novel.

---

[dulcinea3]

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Choisya wrote:

Peppermill wrote:

Does anyone else notice that Gaskell seems to explore the faces of grief in W&D?  I can't decide if she does this consciously, or because it is simply embedded in the stories she is weaving together in this novel.

Perhaps because she was dying when she wrote W&D?  There is an extract here from The Language of Illness and Death and the Silencing of Truth in Wives and Daughters (Item 376) which throws some light on this subject P.

---

dulcinea3 wrote:

I find the relationship between the Squire and Mrs. Hamley and Molly to be quite charming.  They both really do enjoy having her around (always with the caveat that the Squire doesn't want either of his sons entangling himself with her), and you have to feel that they would have loved to have had a daughter in addition to their sons.  They're so kind to her, and she becomes very fond of both of them, as well.  Although she was so sorry at first to be sent from home, she is really delighted to have her stay with them lengthened.  As long as her father visits from time to time, of course.

---

It added poignancy for me to the relationship between Molly and the Hamley's when I discovered they lost a daughter named Fanny.  (My apologies if this revelation is after Chapter 14 -- I have not gone back to check.)

Does anyone else notice that Gaskell seems to explore the faces of grief in W&D?  I can't decide if she does this consciously, or because it is simply embedded in the stories she is weaving together in this novel.

---

---

From what I had read of Gaskell, I was under the impression that she died suddenly and unexpectedly.  She seemed to have been rather active prior to her death, as she had bought that house as a surprise for her husband and was busy fixing it up and furnishing it.  She actually died at the house before her husband knew about it.  I didn't think that she wrote Wives and Daughters as an invalid or during an illness, knowing that she was about to die.  I quickly skimmed over the text that you noted, and might have missed something, but I didn't notice any references to Gaskell's own impending death.

[Everyman]

YUCK.  And double YUCK and triple YUCK.

Got Wives and Daughters on ILL    Started reading it, discovered that it is actually "Wives and Daughters in half the time."  

This is a set from an English publisher (shame on England! -- I thought our Readers Digest Condensed books were bad enough, but at least they mostly didn't mess with the classics)  which claims that "The great classics contain passionate romance, thrilling adventure, arresting characters and unforgettable scenes and situations.  But finding time to read them can be a probelm.  So, we've condensed some of the finest books in the world to a manageable length to enable you to enjoy them."

This Wives and Daughters edition "omits or prunes some of the groupings of minor characters and background descriptions which do not relate to the main action.  There are some reductions, too, in overlong dialogue acceptable in a serial which had to reach so many words to fill the monthly quota of pages."  (The book first appeared as a monthly serial in Cornhill Magazine.) 

What's the point of Gaskell without her minor characters?  

Back to the library it goes.  (I was tempted to burn it and pay the library to get a good copy, but somebody might be lame enough to want a condensed version.)

Meanwhile, it's back to the Kindle edition which I hope is the real thing.   But it's put me way behind in my reading, which is already still very limited until my eyes heal and I can get new glasses.  

[Peppermill]

Glad to know that it is worth putting up with the wearisome drudgery of a Victorian novel that was written for serialization!  I know I am almost never satisfied with condensed versions.

You might consider listening until your eyes heal, Everyman.  I read about twenty chapters, then have listened to about ten.  Our library system has it in MP3 style, which my usual around the house players won't play, but my portable does, so I have been walking around doing chores with the earphones about my neck, since I find long periods on the ears irritating.

I find it amusing that you blame England for the actions of one publishing house that figured it had found a way to make a pound!  Not perchance trying to get a rise out of someone we know who might feel obligated to defend her homeland, are you?

I enjoyed your temptation to burn rather than return the copy you had borrowed!  I've had one or two of those across a lifetime.

Pepper

---

Everyman wrote:

YUCK.  And double YUCK and triple YUCK.

Got Wives and Daughters on ILL    Started reading it, discovered that it is actually "Wives and Daughters in half the time."  

This is a set from an English publisher (shame on England! -- I thought our Readers Digest Condensed books were bad enough, but at least they mostly didn't mess with the classics)  which claims that "The great classics contain passionate romance, thrilling adventure, arresting characters and unforgettable scenes and situations.  But finding time to read them can be a probelm.  So, we've condensed some of the finest books in the world to a manageable length to enable you to enjoy them."

This Wives and Daughters edition "omits or prunes some of the groupings of minor characters and background descriptions which do not relate to the main action.  There are some reductions, too, in overlong dialogue acceptable in a serial which had to reach so many words to fill the monthly quota of pages."  (The book first appeared as a monthly serial in Cornhill Magazine.) 

What's the point of Gaskell without her minor characters?  

Back to the library it goes.  (I was tempted to burn it and pay the library to get a good copy, but somebody might be lame enough to want a condensed version.)

Meanwhile, it's back to the Kindle edition which I hope is the real thing.   But it's put me way behind in my reading, which is already still very limited until my eyes heal and I can get new glasses.  

---

[chadadanielleKR]

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From what I had read of Gaskell, I was under the impression that she died suddenly and unexpectedly.  She seemed to have been rather active prior to her death, as she had bought that house as a surprise for her husband and was busy fixing it up and furnishing it.  She actually died at the house before her husband knew about it.  I didn't think that she wrote Wives and Daughters as an invalid or during an illness, knowing that she was about to die.  I quickly skimmed over the text that you noted, and might have missed something, but I didn't notice any references to Gaskell's own impending death.

---

As a matter of fact, the introduction to the wordsworth classics edition (1999) mentions the fact that she was ill.

p X: "Her letters chronicle her struggle to keep up with the writing while battling with intermittent ill health ("such bad headaches... Oh how dead I feel")dealing with house negociations and coping with all the activites of a Unitarian minister's and a busy mother of four..."

It is so true that the author went to great lengths to describe the "faces" of death. She must have thought a great deal about it and tried to describe how the coming of death could affect the other members of the family. She mentioned also how it felt to be a widow and what problems there were while raising a child without a mother (Mr Gibson) or without a father (Mrs Kirkpatrick).

[Choisya]

I find it amusing that you blame England for the actions of one publishing house that figured it had found a way to make a pound!  Not perchance trying to get a rise out of someone we know who might feel obligated to defend her homeland, are you?

LOL.   Nothing to defend here P.  Orion has been well advertised as 'slimming down' some of the classics and I understand that they are marketing very well in America, making us a bob or two in these hard times!.  I am sorry Everyman's poorly eyesight led him astray before he took the book away, especially as the dustcover clearly states 'Compact Editions'.  I also think that Everyman's local library deserves some of the blame as they should make sure whether their customers want a full or a compact edition before reserving the wrong one.  Now had he borrowed the Barnes and Noble Classics edition  he would have been able to keep his equilibrium but then he would not have had the joy of criticising England yet again.   

As a riposte may I suggest that folks look out for references to 'disreputable' attorneys in W&D, in particular the sentence '...Although there is a general prejudice against attorneys, I have known of two or three who were very respectable men...'  Perhaps these were omitted from the Compact Edition and Everyman's blushes were spared. 

BTW I seem to remember that Everyman had earlier recommended the English BBC DVD of Andrew Davies' production of Wives and Daughters which I watched last night and thoroughly enjoyed.  The northern English countryside is also shown at its best, including the wonderful old topiary gardens at Levens Hall, Northumberland. What a pity Melissa did not get Davies to discuss the book with us whilst he was with B&N discussing Little Dorritt in the Classics bookclub.  I thought it was the best production he has done of the classics and Michael Gambon as the Squire was an absolute delight.  There was also a very good 'Special Feature' in which actors and writers tell us about Gaskell, her other novels and her life.  It made me remember why she is my favourite Victorian female novelist - Dickens being the male one.   I heartily recommend that folks hire this DVD - it is rather expensive to buy.   

---

Peppermill wrote:

Glad to know that it is worth putting up with the wearisome drudgery of a Victorian novel that was written for serialization!  I know I am almost never satisfied with condensed versions.

You might consider listening until your eyes heal, Everyman.  I read about twenty chapters, then have listened to about ten.  Our library system has it in MP3 style, which my usual around the house players won't play, but my portable does, so I have been walking around doing chores with the earphones about my neck, since I find long periods on the ears irritating.

I find it amusing that you blame England for the actions of one publishing house that figured it had found a way to make a pound!  Not perchance trying to get a rise out of someone we know who might feel obligated to defend her homeland, are you?

I enjoyed your temptation to burn rather than return the copy you had borrowed!  I've had one or two of those across a lifetime.

Pepper

---

Everyman wrote:

YUCK.  And double YUCK and triple YUCK.

Got Wives and Daughters on ILL    Started reading it, discovered that it is actually "Wives and Daughters in half the time."  

This is a set from an English publisher (shame on England! -- I thought our Readers Digest Condensed books were bad enough, but at least they mostly didn't mess with the classics)  which claims that "The great classics contain passionate romance, thrilling adventure, arresting characters and unforgettable scenes and situations.  But finding time to read them can be a probelm.  So, we've condensed some of the finest books in the world to a manageable length to enable you to enjoy them."

This Wives and Daughters edition "omits or prunes some of the groupings of minor characters and background descriptions which do not relate to the main action.  There are some reductions, too, in overlong dialogue acceptable in a serial which had to reach so many words to fill the monthly quota of pages."  (The book first appeared as a monthly serial in Cornhill Magazine.) 

What's the point of Gaskell without her minor characters?  

Back to the library it goes.  (I was tempted to burn it and pay the library to get a good copy, but somebody might be lame enough to want a condensed version.)

Meanwhile, it's back to the Kindle edition which I hope is the real thing.   But it's put me way behind in my reading, which is already still very limited until my eyes heal and I can get new glasses.  

---

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Message Edited by Choisya on 05-10-2009 02:58 AM

[dulcinea3]

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chadadanielleKR wrote:

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From what I had read of Gaskell, I was under the impression that she died suddenly and unexpectedly.  She seemed to have been rather active prior to her death, as she had bought that house as a surprise for her husband and was busy fixing it up and furnishing it.  She actually died at the house before her husband knew about it.  I didn't think that she wrote Wives and Daughters as an invalid or during an illness, knowing that she was about to die.  I quickly skimmed over the text that you noted, and might have missed something, but I didn't notice any references to Gaskell's own impending death.

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As a matter of fact, the introduction to the wordsworth classics edition (1999) mentions the fact that she was ill.

p X: "Her letters chronicle her struggle to keep up with the writing while battling with intermittent ill health ("such bad headaches... Oh how dead I feel")dealing with house negociations and coping with all the activites of a Unitarian minister's and a busy mother of four..."

It is so true that the author went to great lengths to describe the "faces" of death. She must have thought a great deal about it and tried to describe how the coming of death could affect the other members of the family. She mentioned also how it felt to be a widow and what problems there were while raising a child without a mother (Mr Gibson) or without a father (Mrs Kirkpatrick).

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Thanks for the information, Danielle!  I hadn't seen any references to her illness before.

[Melissa_W Moderator]

Lordy, the things people will do.  I don't know if I'd be tempted to burn it but there would be a strongly worded conversation with the librarian about quality of items acquired

What is any classic work without it's characters? (If that's what they did to Gaskell what would they do to Dickens?)

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Everyman wrote:

This Wives and Daughters edition "omits or prunes some of the groupings of minor characters and background descriptions which do not relate to the main action.  There are some reductions, too, in overlong dialogue acceptable in a serial which had to reach so many words to fill the monthly quota of pages."  (The book first appeared as a monthly serial in Cornhill Magazine.) 

What's the point of Gaskell without her minor characters?  

Back to the library it goes.  (I was tempted to burn it and pay the library to get a good copy, but somebody might be lame enough to want a condensed version.)

Meanwhile, it's back to the Kindle edition which I hope is the real thing.   But it's put me way behind in my reading, which is already still very limited until my eyes heal and I can get new glasses.  

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[dulcinea3]

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pedsphleb wrote:

Roger Hamley arrives home bringing with him the bad news that Osborne has not done well on his exams, placing low rather than in contention for a Chancellor's medal.  Molly is of the opinion that Roger ought not to have conveyed such news and decides not to like him very much; Roger is indifferent to Molly.  "Altogether it was pleasanter before [Roger] came home."

Meanwhile, circumstances are working to alter Molly's established household arrangement.  Lady Cumnor is persuaded to return to Cumnor Towers and engage Clare (Mrs. Kirkpatrick) while her youngest daughter finishes out her visit in town.  While the family discusses Mrs. Kirkpatrick's situation (she has a school at Ashcombe) Lord Cumnor comes in and offhandedly throws Mr. Gibson's name in as a suitable match for Mrs. Kirkpatrick.  While her ladyship pointedly states that she is not a match-maker, the match does make sense; after all, Mr. Gibson is middle-aged and a widower.  The familiy goes on to converse about other subjects.

Mrs. Kirkpatrick is very happy to accept Lady Cumnor's invitation to the Towers; it will lessen her expenses during the summer holiday (Mrs. Kirkpatrick muses on how the Cumnors never worry about the cost of an item while Mrs. Kirkpatrick must always determine how much an object will cost not just to purchase but to wash, etc).  Lady Cumnor has a rather languid illness of sorts and, after a time, Mr. Gibson is called to consult.  Mr. Gibson has already been lunching with Lord Hollingford, the eldest son of the Cumnors - a scientifically minded man and a widower as well; it is Lord Hollingford who puts the idea of re-marriage into Mr. Gibson's head.

It is during his visit to Lady Cumnor that Mr. Gibson begins to think about Mrs. Kirkpatrick; he remembered her as very pretty during her time as the Cumnor's governess and she is a widow with one daughter now.  However, his concentration on the matter is diverted to treating Lady Cumnor so he doesn't think much more on the subject of matrimony.  Lord Cumnor has; in a letter to her ladyship he wonders how "Clare and Gibson are getting on" and noting that a little matchmaking might be good for Lady Cumnor.  Mrs. Kirkpatrick was reading the letter aloud so she knows the contents as well.

While Lady Cumnor naps, Mrs. Kirkpatrick muses on the idea of re-marriage, the future husband taking the shape of Mr. Gibson, and Mr. Gibson appears to look in on Lady Cumnor.  He beckons Mrs. Kirkpatrick out of the room (she wonders whether he will offer) and he does.  She accepts (she will no longer have to work for a living).

The next morning Mr. Gibson rides over the Hamley to tell Molly of the upcoming marriage.  Molly is very happy to see him; she asks if she may come home soon but her father diverts the question by telling her he has news.  Molly guesses his news - he is going to be married - and she is upset.  She incorrectly assumes that her visit to Hamley was planned to get her out of the house so her father could court Mrs. Kirkpatrick; this upsets her father who abruptly leaves, telling her that once she thinks it over she will understand his one motive was for Molly's happiness.

Molly runs out in the garden to have a good cry - now she feels ashamed that she hurt her father's feelings - and she is found by Roger Hamley.  He helps her back to the house and tells her a story about a young woman who put aside her own feelings to help her father in his remarriage and all worked out well for that young lady.  Molly runs up to her room and Roger tells Mrs. Hamley about Mr. Gibson's news (Mr. Gibson had not stopped to speak with Mrs. Hamley); Molly rather bravely appears and blurts out her news to Mrs. Hamley who comforts her.  Roger makes up a little presentation of his morning's biological gatherings to show his mother and Molly comes too, which was his hope, and he cheers her up by explaining all about his specimens.

Molly intends to apologize to her father when he comes the next morning but Mr. Gibson doesn't like emotional demonstrations; he knows she is sorry and lets her off by saying he knows what she wants to tell him.  He also brings an invitation from Lady Cumnor to spend next Thursday at the Towers to acquaint herself with Hyacinth (Mrs. Kirkpatrick). 

What do you think of this idea of Mr. Gibson's to marry Mrs. Kirkpatrick?  It seems very quickly hatched and not well thought-out; more a knee-jerk response than anything else.  Molly is nearly seventeen and there is a massive contrast between Molly and Emma Woodhouse of our previous selection; at twenty, Emma had been running the household for quite some time while Molly doesn't seem to have assumed much of the day-to-day tasks.  She is very childlike.

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The proposal was very sudden, indeed!  They really barely knew each other.  Obviously a marriage of convenience on each side, but still, very rushed.  Someone suggests the match to Mrs. Kirkpatrick (like the Cumnors, I still have the urge to always call her 'Clare' for some reason), and she almost immediately decides that she would like to marry Mr. Gibson and get out of having to teach school, and starts hoping he will ask her.  Molly's governess doesn't come back when expected, so Mr. Gibson decides a wife will be more convenient for taking care of Molly, looks around, decides on Clare as a likely candidate, and proposes.

It's interesting how Molly has been influenced by the favoritism displayed towards Osborne by the Hamleys, Mrs. Hamley in particular.  She is definitely predisposed to like and admire Osborne.  And the fact that he writes poetry makes him seem all the more romantic - she even copies some of her favorite poems from his collection.  When Roger brings bad news about Osborne, he becomes the villain.  But Roger shows compassion after Molly's news about the wedding; he gives her advice and tries to distract her.  He seems to treat her like a child, in a way.

And poor Molly - having to go back to the Towers, which she can only remember with embarrassment and dread!

[dulcinea3]

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pedsphleb wrote:

Mrs. Kirkpatrick has her own ideas; she is determined to marry as soon as convenient and not go through the trouble of having Cynthia, her daughter, come back for the wedding, whatever Mr. Gibson or Lady Cumnor thinks.  The couple decides to marry at Michaelmas (Mr. Gibson is determined that both Molly and Cynthia will stand bridesmaids).

Molly dully makes her visit to the Towers (Mrs. Hamley makes sure Molly is wearing her quaint white muslin rather than the appalling plaid silk); Molly is a bit put off by Mrs. Kirkpatrick's manner, this may be more due to Molly's feelings on the marriage in general, but tries her best to be good, even when Mrs. Kirkpatrick seems bent on changing Mr. Gibson's habits, i.e. the opinions on taking bread and cheese.  Molly is introduced to Lady Cumnor as Mrs. Kirkpatrick's "dear little daughter" - thankfullly, Lady Cumnor puts a stop to any silliness like that but then horrifies both parties by suggesting Molly should live at Ashcombe with Mrs. Kirkpatrick prior to the marriage.  For his part, Lord Cumnor is quite pleased at having made a match between his physician and his former governess (the conversation with Lady Cumnor brings up the "immoral" poet Byron; I get the feeling the earl likes Byron while his wife does not).  Molly returns to Hamley (where the squire is regretting his words about remarrige since they seem like an ill-omen now); Molly has become quite friendly with Roger Hamley and he also finds that he likes his part as her mentor.

Mr. Gibson is still for Cynthia coming home for the wedding and gives Mrs. Kirkpatrick 15 pounds for the purpose; however, she wangles a letter out of the French headmistress that seems to advise against Cynthia leaving school and, because Mr. Gibson is not proficient at French, Mrs. Kirkpatrick gets her way.  She also uses the money given her by the Cumnors to pay her debts in Ashcombe rather than for her trousseau; her school has not been successful.  In the meantime, Mr. Gibson has approached the Miss Brownings about overseeing the redecorating of his home (about 100 pounds worth); he also arranges for Molly to stay with the Brownings in the days prior to the wedding.  Molly's removal from Hamley is a relief to the squire, who was afraid of funny business when Osborne arrived home, but the whole family misses Molly when she is gone.  Molly tries to be good, and overlook the coarser manners of the Miss Brownings, but gets into a verbal sparring match with the elder Miss Browning over her supposed fancy for Roger Hamley.

The night before the wedding Mr. Gibson and Molly drive over to Ashcombe; they are welcomed at the Manor-house by the estate agent, Mr. Preston, whom Molly finds to be a bit on the pompous and over-solicitous side (he seems to live like an earl at the earl's expense).  Lord Cumnor and Lady Harriet escort Molly to the church (Lady Harriet is the other bridesmaid) and the whole ceremony is over in ten minutes.  Lady Harriet and Molly are left alone for much of the day, leaving Molly wondering at her aristocratic companion's hypocritical manners although Lady Harriet does give good warning about not walking alone in the garden with Mr. Preston; Lady Harriet also promises to loan Molly a number of novels by Maria Edgeworth.  When they drive back to the Towers, Molly opts for going straight back to the Brownings; Molly chastizes Lady Harriet for calling the Miss Brownings names and Lady Harriet apologizes, promising to call on Molly there.

Molly soon receives a visitor - Roger Hamley; he has come with a note from Mrs. Hamley and a wasps-nest he has promised to Molly.  The note contains an invitation to visit for the day with Mrs. Hamley as the men in the family are going to an agricultural meeting.  While Molly visits with Mrs. Hamley Osborne returns to the hall; he has no real interest in the meeting and felt it best to come home.  Molly compares the original with her idealized version of Osborne; he is somewhat less a Homeric hero than Molly imagined, but she likes him all the same.  Roger and the squire return as well, having looked all over for Osborne; Roger asks if she likes the Huber but Molly hasn't made much progress because the Miss Brownings keep her very busy.  Roger promises to check on her progress when he comes to visit the new Mrs. Gibson.

Molly returns to the Brownings to find Miss Browning in a tizzy - Lady Harriet called while Molly was at Hamley and Miss Browning relates the visit in a very comical manner.  Lady Harriet seems to have made good on her promise to be more respectful of Molly's class.

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Clare obviously does not want her daughter to come 'home' from France.  It makes one wonder how good a mother she will be to Molly, if she doesn't seem to care so much for her own daughter.

It seemed pretty obvious that Mr. Preston was interested in Cynthia.  For some reason, I had expected there to have been some hanky-panky between him and Mrs. Kirkpatrick, but his comments on Cynthia's beauty and eagerness to have his praise repeated to her are anything but subtle.

I really liked Lady Harriet.  She was so friendly with Molly, and even followed through on her visit to the Miss Brownings, which just made their day - maybe even their week, month, and year!  Has anybody noticed that they are usually referred to simply as "Miss Brownings" instead of "the Miss Brownings"? That usage struck me as odd every time I read it, but perhaps it was common in that time.  However, I did notice towards the end of the novel, she started using "the Miss Brownings" more often.

Yikes!  We've only got one more week to discuss this novel!  How is everybody doing with their reading progress?  I finished a week or more ago.  I will say that I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[chadadanielleKR]

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dulcinea3 wrote:  

It seemed pretty obvious that Mr. Preston was interested in Cynthia.  For some reason, I had expected there to have been some hanky-panky between him and Mrs. Kirkpatrick, but his comments on Cynthia's beauty and eagerness to have his praise repeated to her are anything but subtle.

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Unfortunately, It seems to me that the author never deepens much into the analysis of the relationships between Mrs Kirkpatrick and Mr Preston. We are only to guess... 

My guess is that there are rivals in the heart of the wealthy characters of the book. Both of them have daily relationships with the inhabitants of the Towers and they desperately would like to climb the social scale. They are in competition with each other and, knowing this, they despise each other.

What is strange though is that Mr Preston doesn't seem willing to marry "above" his rank. I wonder why he is after Cynthia so much or, maybe, he couldn't find any better match in a such a small place... where nice young ladies to be married are in scarce number, and he had already suffered a few setbacks.