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chad
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Re: Tulip bulbs were once a form of currency in Holland- what we find beautiful is valuable

[ Edited ]
Hi Elee:

What facillitates trade is the learning of languages --not too much else would business be concerned about. Higher notions of becoming poets or writers are discarded for the practical in designated "languages of business."-- this pheneomeneon still goes on today. So, I'm not sure if Clerval's father had his son's own best interests in mind or sent him to school out of affection. A "molding" in the languages was The Shellys excellently demontstrate the danger of education when we require poems, prose or writing to be read in language classes, sparking emotion, like lightning, in a world lacking friendship and affection, in a world of business. Remember that the literate population was increasing in this era-- what students were assigned or supposed to read may even create a monster....

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 11-18-200612:26 PM

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chad
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Oops, I went there, sorry....

Are we thinking that Shelley predicted that this is somthing people might do with her book? Like, I'm thinking Nazi/Jewish things- Ooops I'm sorry, I had to put it up there...


Chad
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Choisya
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Re: Tulip bulbs were once a form of currency in Holland- what we find beautiful is valuable



chad wrote:
Hi Elee:

What facillitates trade is the learning of languages --not too much else would business be concerned about. Higher notions of becoming poets or writers are discarded for the practical in designated "languages of business."-- this pheneomeneon still goes on today. So, I'm not sure if Clerval's father had his son's own best interests in mind or sent him to school out of affection. A "molding" in the languages was The Shellys excellently demontstrate the danger of education when we require poems, prose or writing to be read in language classes, sparking emotion, like lightning, in a world lacking friendship and affection, in a world of business. Remember that the literate population was increasing in this era-- what students were assigned or supposed to read may even create a monster....

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 11-18-200612:26 PM






Tulipmania was a form of speculative madness unrelated to the beauty of the flower. It was the rarity of certain species, not their beauty, which attracted the Dutch investors of the 17C.

Trade goes on without the learning of language. If this were not so Britain would be a bankrupt nation, so bad are we as a nation at learning languages! The explorers who sailed round the world taking goods for trade in exchange for foreign goods rarely had the advantage of foreign languages. Few businessmen know the Oriental languages, yet our trade with the Orient has always been immense. America has relatively few Arabic speakers but that has not prevented their trade in oil. Trade, like love, has its own language:smileyhappy:

The reading of poetry and good prose 'hones' language. Understanding the subtleties of a poem helps us to understand the subtlety of language. Poetry was considered to be a refinement, not monstrous.
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Re: Tulip bulbs were once a form of currency in Holland- what we find beautiful is valuable

"It was the rarity of certain species, not their beauty, which attracted the Dutch investors of the 17C."

I don't know why you wouldn't consider their beauty as part of their value, Choisya. Sorry, I think meracntilism or a new merchant culture changed the world a bit during that time- people were learning new languages, we were simply learning moew about a our world during this time, new discoveries, they were becoming more educated, etc. Clerval studied the languages for his own "enterprise."

Chad
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Choisya
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Re: Tulip bulbs were once a form of currency in Holland- what we find beautiful is valuable



chad wrote:
"It was the rarity of certain species, not their beauty, which attracted the Dutch investors of the 17C."

I don't know why you wouldn't consider their beauty as part of their value, Choisya. Sorry, I think meracntilism or a new merchant culture changed the world a bit during that time- people were learning new languages, we were simply learning moew about a our world during this time, new discoveries, they were becoming more educated, etc. Clerval studied the languages for his own "enterprise."

Chad





I personally would have considered their beauty as part of their value Chad but the Dutch investors were trading in bulbs not flowers and the bulbs look the same, more or less, whatever the species. It was rather like trading in the paints of an artist. I agree that a new merchant culture was emerging and it was this that possibly added to the hysteria of Tulipmania - as it did with the South Sea Bubble later in the century and in the 1840s Railway mania. None of these things had anything to do with beauty however, just as now, on the Stock Market, traders have no regard for the beauty of their traded product.
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Well, because I have to be agreeable because I'm stuck here- Mercantilistic Wonders

[ Edited ]
Mercantilism is a sort of friendship between governments and merchants- that is, trade and governments formed unions which "tempered" each other. The relationship between Beaufort and Frankenstein is a representation of such a union, I think. However, a new economic policy was forming.....

What say you?
Chad

Message Edited by chad on 11-19-200603:18 PM

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Re: Tulip bulbs were once a form of currency in Holland- what we find beautiful is valuable

Poetry was considered to be a refinement, not monstrous.

Just to add:

Victor's influences were Agrippa, Magnus, etc. We can be influenced by old poems like Mariner, etc. I think the importance of writing's influence/effect was mentioned in the preface and intro.

Chad
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chad
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OK- it's a little complicated

"maybe the loss of true friendship is something Shelly noticed as society became more mercantilistic"

And to further clarify: I think friendship was hard to find in the age of mercantilism, industrialization, etc., but this new union of merchants and governments, the rise of the merchant class, pushed us forward? or back? to our own origins, the beginning of the beginning, if you will.



Chad
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Choisya
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Re: Friendship then and now.



chad wrote:
"maybe the loss of true friendship is something Shelly noticed as society became more mercantilistic"

And to further clarify: I think friendship was hard to find in the age of mercantilism, industrialization, etc., but this new union of merchants and governments, the rise of the merchant class, pushed us forward? or back? to our own origins, the beginning of the beginning, if you will.



Chad






I think that Shelley and her crowd had far more deeper and longer lasting friendships than we Chad. The volumes of letters written over lifetimes and long journeys made to visit friends when transport was difficult are surely a testimony to this. Now we can buy in services of all kinds, whereas our forefathers had to rely on the help and friendship of kith and kin to get them through many of life's problems. Throughout her difficult pregnancy and childbirth, for instance, Mary Shelley was surrounded by her friends and family, who today would be replaced by 'counsellors'. I was in hospital recently and it was interesting to note that the folks with most family visitors were from the ethnic minorities who still live in the supportive extended family groups we have lost. Significantly, these families are more likely to be found in countries where there is less 'mercantilism' or 'industrialisation'.

Not for nothing did MS and her friends flee industrialised Victorian Britain for the more rural climes of Switzerland, Greece and Italy. Frankenstein could also be likened to the monster we have created by industrialisation, as portrayed in Chaplin's 'Modern Times'.

http://www.clown-ministry.com/index_1.php?/site/articles/review_of_modern_times_starring_charlie_chaplin_paulette_goddard/
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Re: Friendship then and now.

[ Edited ]
This is so true, Choisya. My family lives 2000 miles away and I have always been the one expected to travel at Christmastime (a truly awful time to travel). I also live in one of the most beautiful state in the US (Colorado). Yet my family would plan vacations to other places instead of coming to visit. And, when I did go to visit at Christmas, it wasn't necessarily a pleasant stay (I won't go into the family dysfunctions - every one has them of some sort). So, I finally decided I didn't have to go there every year.

Well, I didn't have any plans for Christmas so I decided to plan a spa day at home. Most of my friends thought it sounded like a great idea (some were actually quite envious - obviously they had to attend their own dysfunctional family events!). But one friend (a therapy junkie) was convinced this had to be a sign of depression and caringly suggested as such to me and thought maybe I should get out and perhaps go skiing or something (I'm a ski patroller and ski more times a year than most people - I wanted a day at home to relax). I thought about it later how our society no longer invites a single woman to join them for Christmas dinner but instead suggests that we get out of the house and maybe might want to contact a therapist about that depression that we don't see but they do. I don't know how it is in England but in the US we've become a great nation for solving everyone else's problems and forgotten how to just be friends.

Denise

Message Edited by donyskiw on 11-22-200610:48 AM

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Choisya
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Re: (Off topic) Friendship then and now.



donyskiw wrote:
This is so true, Choisya. My family lives 2000 miles away and I have always been the one expected to travel at Christmastime (a truly awful time to travel). I also live in one of the most beautiful state in the US (Colorado). Yet my family would plan vacations to other places instead of coming to visit. And, when I did go to visit at Christmas, it wasn't necessarily a pleasant stay (I won't go into the family dysfunctions - every one has them of some sort). So, I finally decided I didn't have to go there every year.

Well, I didn't have any plans for Christmas so I decided to plan a spa day at home. Most of my friends thought it sounded like a great idea (some were actually quite envious - obviously they had to attend their own dysfunctional family events!). But one friend (a therapy junkie) was convinced this had to be a sign of depression and caringly suggested as such to me and thought maybe I should get out and perhaps go skiing or something (I'm a ski patroller and ski more times a year than most people - I wanted a day at home to relax). I thought about it later how our society no longer invites a single woman to join them for Christmas dinner but instead suggests that we get out of the house and maybe might want to contact a therapist about that depression that we don't see but they do. I don't know how it is in England but in the US we've become a great nation for solving everyone else's problems and forgotten how to just be friends.

Denise

Message Edited by donyskiw on 11-22-200610:48 AM







The UK is small enough for most folks who want to visit their family to do so and it is still quite a tradition, although so is going abroad for sunshine. Also, we are not so therapist/counsellor/psychiatrist oriented as the US is and I think people still consult friends and families quite a lot when they have real problems - again distances aren't such a deal and phone calls are quite cheap nowadays. I would quite like to get away from family functions at Christmas myself but my grandchildren won't let me! We do manage to have quite a traditional fun time though, with lots of guitar playing, singing, games etc. We also invite our single friends along so you would be welcome over here!
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Re: (Off topic) Friendship then and now.

[ Edited ]
The topic of friendship is always on-topic with Frankenstein. The Bride of Franknestein's hairdo still reigns supreme, apparently the raised, bi-colored hair-do was due to the electric shock, but I'm not sure.

So on topic, anyway:

Society distinguishes between friends and family. Not always are our friends our family and vice versa. And the disheartening question: is friendship ultimately self-defeating? That is, do we seek friendship selflessly and do our own needs, whether they are met, eventually destroy friendships sought?

And finally for Thanksgiving:

As I wrote in my intro:

Was a search for true friendship, possibly beginning in the age of mercantilism, the impetus for Adam Smith's laissez-faire economics and the subsequent development of the free market system and modern business as we know it?

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 11-22-200602:33 PM

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Re: (Off topic) Friendship then and now.

br>

chad wrote:


And the disheartening question: is friendship ultimately self-defeating? That is, do we seek friendship selflessly and do our own needs, whether they are met, eventually destroy friendships sought?

And finally for Thanksgiving:

As I wrote in my intro:

Was a search for true friendship, possibly beginning in the age of mercantilism, the impetus for Adam Smith's laissez-faire economics and the subsequent development of the free market system and modern business as we know it?

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 11-22-200602:33 PM







I don't know.
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Frankenstein went econ

The basic theme of friendship is sound. I think Shelley saw Adam Smith and his economic policy akin to a Frankenstein. But I wouldn't say that they (the Shelley's) felt that more government restraint on trade was necessary either.

Chad
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Re: A Guide for Our Discussion

Signing in really late - it will take a long time to read all the posts. For a long time, well into November I kept checking my "saved" B&N bookmark, and got no help there. I gave up in mid November and returned today to try again, was promptly faced with the new format. This looks kind of confusing to say the least, but I will give it a try. I read "Frankenstein" twice - once in college in a "Mythology and Literature" class (excellent!) and again on my own.
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Re: A Guide for Our Discussion



jmpsalem wrote:
Signing in really late - it will take a long time to read all the posts. For a long time, well into November I kept checking my "saved" B&N bookmark, and got no help there. I gave up in mid November and returned today to try again, was promptly faced with the new format. This looks kind of confusing to say the least, but I will give it a try. I read "Frankenstein" twice - once in college in a "Mythology and Literature" class (excellent!) and again on my own.




Hi jmpsalem. Welcome back to B&N.
I do hope you enjoy reading the posts in the Frankenstein thread. This discussion did fire through November--and now much of the action on the boards is shifing to the some threads that were recently launched: The British Classics Board and Moby-Dick. As the new year comes, you'll also see two new classics book clubs: the Jungle and Kafka.
I hope you enter into any of there discussions. We look forward to your feedback
Ilana



Ilana
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Choisya
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Re: A Guide for Our Discussion



jmpsalem wrote:
Signing in really late - it will take a long time to read all the posts. For a long time, well into November I kept checking my "saved" B&N bookmark, and got no help there. I gave up in mid November and returned today to try again, was promptly faced with the new format. This looks kind of confusing to say the least, but I will give it a try. I read "Frankenstein" twice - once in college in a "Mythology and Literature" class (excellent!) and again on my own.





Hi there! I think you will find that the Frankenstein discussion has finished. In the English classics we have now moved on to Cranford and Shakespeare. Might I suggest you look at my post re setting up the Linear Format in the Help & Information section and that you also set up the 'Email me if someone replies to this facility'? After a lot of difficulty at the beginning, I find that these two tings helped a lot and others agreed. Hope to see you soon in another section:smileyhappy:
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Re: A Guide for Our Discussion

hi, i read frankenstein some years ago. Nature vs. man is the theme. like in the tintern abbey by wordsworth?, nature outlives man's attempts to conquer it. In an unnatural way Victor creates a nameless monster. As the tintern Abbey is overrun by nature's hand, the monster and Victor are overtaken by nature in the end. Nature is hard to imitate by man.
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chad
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Re: A Guide for Our Discussion

[ Edited ]
I think Victor does attempt to imitate and even defies Nature by creating what is his own child, or the monster, Frankenstein. Nature obviously has her own way of human procreation. With Nature's own human procreation, however perfect or imperfect, came the evolution of human language which attributed meanings to the same act of procreation. If I could find a reason for my existence, I would have to find that reason in my own language. Words themselves may lead me to search my own origins, possibly sending me back to the "original creator" or what some might consider to be God.

For example, during Shelley's time and prior to her time, a utilitarian humanity was forming- a mercantilistic or economic world which created people to be used, but which exposed people to languages with words like "love" and "friend". People were entitled to these things because the words simply existed, but they did not know how to achieve them-- they were unknown. It was the existence of the word, "friend" that motivated a lost humanity to search for a friend, pitting not only man against Nature, but man against himself. What I think worried Shelley was a search which might kill humanity in the process by leading to a discovery of devastating forces in Nature- forces which might have remained unknown and unharnessed were it not for his own need, were it not for a lack of understanding of his own linguistic evolution, but which certainly were forces which helped to shape the beginning of our world.

We would hope Man's search might lead him to a time when the word "friend" diverged from the word "love" or take Him back to the beginning of the beginning, to the original creator, possibly disocvering that the very friend he was searching for was himself, before unleashing a Frankenstein....

So I think Man vs. Nature as the theme as well, but maybe Man ve Nature, or Man vs. Himself, because of a language or because of a need of a friend,

Chad

Message Edited by chad on 01-31-200708:41 PM

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Re: A Guide for Our Discussion

Hi chad

An interesting tidbit is that Mary Shelley's mom was Mary Wollstonecraft, a famous author, but what's most interesting is that Mary, the mom, died as a result of Mary Shelley's birth. Mary Shelley had a frightful dream which resulted in Frankenstein. The intriguing thing about the idea of procreation is that God creates and the Devil counterfeits. It is parallel to the theme of man imitating nature in procreation. With man, there is the "grand illusion" of being a self-made man. The idea that man creates his own story. Nature as a force is outside of man's control and, therefore, man tries to subdue nature to become a force that is from man. Man counterfeits that which Nature procreates. I think the horizontal relationship that man creates tries to look within himself to counterfeit that which is not in his control. A counterfeit is not the same as the natural. Your theory of language reminds me of the jewish belief of spelling God without the use of vowels because to name something suggests superiority over that named. God the creator is not created of man, but God creates man. So naming God tantamounts to blasphemy. For Promotheus stole fire from the gods and was chained by Zeus as punishment. Victor von Frankenstein stole life (procreation) from nature and is punished. The creature, the nameless monster, kills Victor's brother and Victor's wife in retaliation for not naming the beast. I think in naming the beast there is blasphemy.
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