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chad
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Re: molding each other

Whoa- it's good that I write on the web-it's been a while, the new edit feature is great, but it records when you edit!!!

Chad
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IlanaSimons
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do books change us?

Chad, your point is a really good one: Books molds us. Sometimes they give us our very ways of thinking about the world.

But one funny thing about this book is that Frankenstein's monster actually gets a pretty good, classic education--taught to speak English by listening in to intellectual chats at De Lacey’s, and then reading from their books, including _Paradise Lost_, _Plutarch's Lives_, and the _Sorrows of Young Werther_. But this literary education isn’t enough to tame his monstrous interior. He goes on to feel insatiable jealousies and hatred. He kills.

Do delicious books make us better people? Or hungrier people? Do they change us?



Ilana
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donyskiw
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Re: do books change us?

There's a discussion on these boards for a book called You've Got To Read This Book. It contains vignettes of 55 people who talk of which book they read that made a profound difference in their lives. So, I'd say, yes, books can change people. Ideas are disseminated in books. I don't think books are the only thing that change people and I don't think all people are changed by books.

Denise
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IlanaSimons
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Re: do books change us?

Good answer.
Books that have changed me:
Sorrows of Young Werther: because I now know how to recognize (both enjoy and stop-up) my own self-pity
Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit: Showed me that good philosophy needs to risk insanity
To The Lighthouse (Woolf): She's like a best friend who can't leave me



Ilana
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donyskiw
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Re: do books change us?

Women Who Run With the Wolves remains my favorite. I have to read it again now that I'm in my forties. I read it in my twenties and in my thirties. Each decade the book brought be new wisdom. It also opened me up to spirituality beyond organized religion, something I'm so greatful for.

Denise
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IlanaSimons
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what words have books brought into your lives?

I like the idea of a poem bringing the word and concept of "albatross" into your life.

A couple notes down in this list, we're asking the question of how books can change us. This is a nice, further detail: What books have brought new words--and with those words, new ideas--into your lives?

Virginia Woolf gave me a way of thinking that "the mind is like the sea": i.e. it's hard to separate one idea from another; they flow together.
Kafka gave me the idea of the "hunger artist": i.e. some of us manage to feel special by making ourselves sick (so: unique).

Are there any authors that give any of you _lenses_ for seeing the world?



Ilana
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donyskiw
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Re: what words have books brought into your lives?

I have not read Joseph Campbell's work but I have read things other author's have written about the Hero's Journey and that has provided a lens through which I look at my own journey. I also have not read Carl Jung's work but I have read things others have written about archetypes (including Clarissa Pinkola Estes in Women Who Run With the Wolves whose book I mention elsewhere and Carolyn Myss's book Sacred Contracts). The discussions of archetypes gave me a lens to better understand my own personality as well as experiences I go through as a woman.

Denise
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IlanaSimons
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Re: what words have books brought into your lives?

Interesting, Denise. You're making me think of archetypes.
Jung thought archetypes were innate, but literature also creates archetypes for us. I'm actually thinking that all big, historically rooted concepts are archetypes: strongly stated forms that we cling to.
Frankenstein's monster is one (a phrase like "you're such a monster" evokes a whole host of images and associations.)
"You're like Jekyll & Hyde" is a saying rooted in a literary archetype.
others?



Ilana
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donyskiw
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Re: what words have books brought into your lives?

Women Who Run With the Wolves dealt with archetypes in story. Bluebeard, the Red Shoes, many of the fairy tales we heard growing up were archetypes of life passages. Another book, Iron John by Robert Bly is an archetypal story of a man's passages from boyhood to manhood. It's not about the innate archetypes that Jung wrote about but it's more about the life experience.

Denise
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chad
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Re: do books change us?

I think that they can, as Percy writes, delineate emotion. Frankenstein is about our own writing cretaing emotions. Writings across time, I might add.

Chad
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chad
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Re: Responsibility part 1 - Victor's failure

I'm not sure Victor could study what he wanted. I think his father and his professors looked on Agrippa's works as something antiquated or something like nonsense. Victor was to study the modern theorists in Chemistry, although he was greatly influenced by Agrippa's writings.

Chad
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chad
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Re: women in the book, gender roles

Hi-

Just a quick comment: I think friendship is hard to achieve in marraige- people seem to take on roles in this kind of union, so a friendship would be optimal, especially if couples wish to have children. Shelley may have also believed and experienced herself, that marraige and procreation is best achieved between friends, possibly between two men or two women or among three people- but they have to have a true friendship and they have to be able to create a baby Frankenstein- hopefully not, but well, maybe....

Chad

P.S. --In general, both men and women in the story seem to fit into roles, but I think the roles were beginning to change...
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chad
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Re: do books change us? I don't know but you can be a time traveler...

Ilana:

I think that all the books that you mention had been written in the past and so, allow us to return to the time that the book was written, in varying degrees. It's hard to explain but books both move us forward and push us back at the same time. Shelley was cool beans, man.

Chad
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IlanaSimons
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Re: do books change us? I don't know but you can be a time traveler...

Neat idea: that they both push us back and push us forward. Books set paradigms (about the sexes, about race, about "monstrosity"...) that we live inside. The images "hold us back" through the strength of their lenses. And then, a great artist comes around every so often and launches new paradigms. New types to see and live by.



Ilana
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chad
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Love and Friendship

Hi everyone:

I don't know how much longer the forum will continue, but I'd thought I'd mention that the word friendship and love become similiar as we travel back in time to our own language and word origins. And as we move forward through time, the word "love", slowly develops into the word friend, by degrees of course.

Have a good one!
This is horror with heart,
Chad
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chad
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Re:law

 
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chad
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Re:law

I think someone mentioned law earlier and I think that Shelley's belief, as reflected in the story, is that law is something like a storm. That is, emotions and facts converge to singularity, a bolt of lightning or a verdict and, to this degree, a trial is something that occurs at random, is uncontrollable and maybe a little frightening.

Chad
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Choisya
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Re: Ilana: Chad's post and NT?

[ Edited ]
I see that Chad's post on Law is marked NT and has disappeared? Why is this and what does NT mean?


Has this discussion of Frankenstein now ended?

Message Edited by Choisya on 11-27-200601:27 AM

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Choisya
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Re: BELATED HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!

I have only just realised that the reason the boards have been quiet this weekend is that Americans are celebrating Thanksgiving with family and friends, instead of helping me through my insomniac hours:smileyhappy: I hope you all had a wonderful time and if Frankenstein is finished, I hope we meet again soon.

Which book are you moderating next Ilana - I have enjoyed your input on this one and your receptiveness to the complaints which have been made about the new format. I understand that some of these are now being addressed by the 'software developers' and Bob Fanuzzir has said he is going to bring 'lots of structure' to Moby Dick (December 12) and The Jungle (January). Onward and Upward!
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chad
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law and science mixed together?

[ Edited ]
Some of you mentioned "law and science mixed together."

Well, law and science do have a common origin and to some degree, they are manifestations of "the creator" and "the created." So, bear with Shelley, the creator gradually develops into religion, which gradually develops into law. The created, on the otherhand, gradually turns into philosophy which gradually turns into science. And the final outcome? Science and law mixing together, in tension and sometimes in harmony. One may perhaps overcome the other, driving us further to our original "origins." The evolution might be a gradual phasing out of religion and philosophy, or just science and law being what finally drives us back to our own creation, but remnants of all four obviously still exist in the world.

Deep? Well if you don't want to go that deep, ultimately the message of Frankenstein would be about friendship and love, or the lack thereof. Victor Frankenstein's creation certainly makes us question our own reasons for creating another human being, our own unions with each other and ultimately our own reasons for being.

Will I marry and have kids? Well, I'm with Shelley. My reasons for marrying would have to be sound- that is, out of friendship and love. Both words, like all words, have a common origin, but whose delineation begs the question about a world possibly gone awry, a world which currently delineates sexual preferences.

But I hope all is well with everyone over the Christmas break and as I travel to the mountains and back to the beach and then back to the mountains, again and again, a North American version of Victor Frankenstein, I'll make sure I type a few words, hoping to adjust the temperature in each climate.

Chad

The selections are great- keep'em coming!

Message Edited by chad on 11-27-200601:38 PM

Message Edited by chad on 11-27-200601:39 PM

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