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becke_davis
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Featured Book for February: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

This is a wonderful book, and it is often listed as one of the best mysteries of all time. It is especially popular with history buffs, and it is considered controversial -- although not as much now as when it was first published.

If you haven't bought the book yet, I'm happy to say that it is available in paperback at BN.com at a bargain price. Also, the book is pretty short -- a fast read.

There is a chapter-by-chapter study guide at this link:

http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-the-daughter-of-time/

This link features discussions about books that offer rebuttals to Tey's premise:

http://glyphs.gardenweb.com/forums/load/paradise/msg0408512610673.html

Check out the links in another post on this site. This book is talked about so much, years after it was first published, that I could easily have listed pages and pages of links. Some of these articles and reviews are informative; all of them are pretty interesting.

Here are a few more:

http://www.mysterywriters.org/pages/resources/Top100.pdf

http://readingadventures.blogspot.com/2006/08/daughter-of-time-by-josephine-tey.html

http://americanpolitics.com/091399Baker.html

http://book-lovers-get-your-english-on.blogspot.com/2007/10/daughter-of-time.html

http://www.engel-cox.org/1998/11/the-daughter-of-time.html
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paigerb
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Re: Featured Book for February: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

Hi, I am Paige. Am very excited about this book. I am a teacher and have used this book in combination with the original play Richard the Third, for a mixed unit for Shakespeare and mystery (who killed the princes). The students love the play when you add the intrique of a trial and the idea of figuring out who had the most to gain by the deaths of the boys. I really enjoy the book, and look forward to hearing all the other thoughts. Paige
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becke_davis
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Re: Featured Book for February: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey



paigerb wrote:
Hi, I am Paige. Am very excited about this book. I am a teacher and have used this book in combination with the original play Richard the Third, for a mixed unit for Shakespeare and mystery (who killed the princes). The students love the play when you add the intrique of a trial and the idea of figuring out who had the most to gain by the deaths of the boys. I really enjoy the book, and look forward to hearing all the other thoughts. Paige




When I was looking up links I was amazed at the number of people selling term papers based on this book!
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Re: Featured Book for February: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

Hi---I read The Daughter of Time in January. I will have to check the links posted here and look at the book again. I read more than one book at the same time so sometimes I have to look back if I'm going to discuss anything. This sounds interesting.
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IBIS
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Re: Featured Book for February: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey



becke_davis wrote:
This is a wonderful book, and it is often listed as one of the best mysteries of all time. It is especially popular with history buffs, and it is considered controversial -- although not as much now as when it was first published.



Becke, thank you for these links. I was very surprised to learn so many term papers have been written on this book alone. The movie version with Sir Ian McKellen, and set in 1930's fascist setting, was amazingly well done. It's colored my perception of Shakespeare's version.

I'm looking forward to reading The Daughter of Time, and see what's is regarded as the 4th best mystery ever written by the Mystery Writers' members.

What fun!

IBIS
IBIS

"I am a part of everything that I have read."
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becke_davis
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Re: Featured Book for February: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

I first read this book when I was in my early 20s and living in England. I had recently discovered Tey and loved her other books (the first I read was The Franchise Affair, which is a great mystery). This book got me so psyched up and it really got me interested in the British royal family, history, etc. I don't know the truth about Richard III but then I don't know if anyone really does. But the book is definitely thought-provoking.
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LizzieAnn
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The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

Thanks for the links Becke, they were interesting. I read The Daugher of Time earlier this week and found it intriguing. I've always found both mysteries and the English monarchy fascinating, and enjoy reading both. Reading this just reminded me forcibly that history is written by the winners. This book takes an interesting idea and presents a logical argument and in such a way that you can't help but being drawn into the story. Richard III is certainly a fascinating figure of history and definitely worth a discussion.
Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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becke_davis
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Re: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

Do we have any history buffs on board? I don't know enough, personally, to present a good argument, for or against.
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Curt42
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Re: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

This book raises a lot of passion among historians. We read it for a live discussion group and our moderator hated the book. He was a history teacher and detested the book for its lack of scholarly approach and references. The book was designed as a piece of fiction, so I am willing to give the author a break, but I really would have liked an afterword explaining how accurate the thesis of the book really was. Richard III was a very controversial character in history and a lot of what you read about him depends on whether the source liked or disliked him. A lot of what we "know" about Richard comes from Shakespeare's play, but considering Shakespeare was writing for Elizabeth I whose house was in competition and direct opposition to Richards, Shakespeare could not afford to be an unbiased source. I have read that Richard was a deformed hunchback and I have read that he was perfectly normal. Richard was a victim of bad press and we will never know the whole story. The old rule of "The winners write the history books" definitely applies here.
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LizzieAnn
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Re: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

Well put Curt. The thing that interested me most & that I want to find out more about is that Henry VII never used the fact that Richard murdered the Princes (if that is true). And since he had the most to gain, it's a little odd.



Curt42 wrote:
This book raises a lot of passion among historians. We read it for a live discussion group and our moderator hated the book. He was a history teacher and detested the book for its lack of scholarly approach and references. The book was designed as a piece of fiction, so I am willing to give the author a break, but I really would have liked an afterword explaining how accurate the thesis of the book really was. Richard III was a very controversial character in history and a lot of what you read about him depends on whether the source liked or disliked him. A lot of what we "know" about Richard comes from Shakespeare's play, but considering Shakespeare was writing for Elizabeth I whose house was in competition and direct opposition to Richards, Shakespeare could not afford to be an unbiased source. I have read that Richard was a deformed hunchback and I have read that he was perfectly normal. Richard was a victim of bad press and we will never know the whole story. The old rule of "The winners write the history books" definitely applies here.


Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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becke_davis
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Re: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

Like I said, I don't know enough about the history of that period to be able to challenge, or defend, Tey's premise. What I liked about it is that it made me look at history with fresh eyes (that sounds gross), and it brought that whole era to life for me.
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dulcinea3
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Re: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

I have read up on the subject a bit: Alison Weir's books The Wars of the Roses, and The Princes in the Tower, and a biography of Richard III. Unfortunately, I loaned the first two to a friend years ago and haven't gotten them back yet, so I don't have them to refer to. I have another bio of Richard, and one of Henry VII that I haven't read yet. I did read the part of the Richard one that dealt with the Princes last week.

While reading Tey's novel, it seemed to me that her facts were pretty accurate. And when I read the bit from the bio afterwards, I still think so. I think some things were left out of Tey's analysis, as I think that the Duke of Buckingham is supposed to be another possible suspect, although it's possible that that theory came out after Tey had written.

As for Richard, it does seem that he was not a deformed hunchback, and that that was cooked up during the reign of the Tudors. However, it does appear that one shoulder was slightly higher than the other, and there is also a theory that this could have even happened as a result of extensive training with a heavy sword.

I'm no expert, and I'm not going to go back and read hundreds of pages to refresh my memory, but I do recall some of it! I know a lot more about the reigns of Henry VIII and his children.
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becke_davis
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Re: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

Thanks for your input. If any of the rest of you find references that either back up Tey's conclusions, or contradict them, please share them with us.
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Curt42
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Re: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

The first time I read this book in the 70's I was unaware of the fact that this was the fifth and last book that Tey wrote with the lead character of Alan Grant. I read the book thinking that he was a one shot character. When I reread the book last year I had previously read the first Alan Grant book "The Man in the Queue" and "To Love and Be Wise". He was a good character and made for a good read. His actress girlfriend is also interesting because of the mystique around her. Treating Richard III as a murder suspect is an intriguing concept especially when done in the hands of knowledgeable detective.
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becke_davis
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Re: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

[ Edited ]
I don't know why Tey's other books aren't more famous. They are great mysteries and so evocative of the time and place (England and Scotland). Brat Farrar was made into a movie, I believe, and that book did receive some acclaim, but it's her detective series that that does it for me.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DEEDF153FF937A25752C1A960948260

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090401/

Review with spoilers to Brat Farrar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brat_Farrar

Message Edited by becke_davis on 02-03-2008 11:02 AM
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Re: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey



becke_davis wrote:
Thanks for your input. If any of the rest of you find references that either back up Tey's conclusions, or contradict them, please share them with us.




I really don't know much British history and never knew about the princes in the tower until I read Daughter of Time!!! In a little research online, I came across this information. This is from David Ross and Britain Express on britainexpress.com

"In the 17th century workmen repairing a stairwell at the Tower found the bones of two boys about the right ages. Were these the Princes in the Tower, and were they killed by their wicked uncle? We will probably never know. The person with the most to gain by killing the princes was not Richard, however, but Henry, Earl of Richmond."

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becke_davis
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Re: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

I've never been into true crime novels, but I guess this could almost be considered a historical true crime!
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LizzieAnn
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The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

This book does make you wonder. They say that history is written by the winners. It's interesting that it's under the Henry's that Richard is painted to blackest.



Librarian wrote:

I really don't know much British history and never knew about the princes in the tower until I read Daughter of Time!!! In a little research online, I came across this information. This is from David Ross and Britain Express on britainexpress.com

"In the 17th century workmen repairing a stairwell at the Tower found the bones of two boys about the right ages. Were these the Princes in the Tower, and were they killed by their wicked uncle? We will probably never know. The person with the most to gain by killing the princes was not Richard, however, but Henry, Earl of Richmond."

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Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Re: Featured Book for February: The Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey

It may be of interest to note that there were, in the late 1990s, two trials of Richard III, charging him with the murder of the princes.

In 1996, the Indiana University School of Law held a mock trial of Richard before a panel of three distinguished judges, lead by U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Rehnquist found Richard not guilty.

Then in 1997, the Lawyers' Committee for the Shakespeare Theater in Washington, D.C held a mock trial before three Supreme Court justices: Rehnquist again (though in real life he would have had to recuse himself!) and Justices Ruth Bader Ginsberg and Stephen Breyer. This panel also found that the prosecution had not proved their case. C-Span planned to broadcast this trial at a later date: I don't know whether they ever actually did.

Of course, not guilty may mean innocent in law, but doesn't necessarily mean innocent in fact. But it's perhaps of interest that the legal evidence against him isn't sufficient to find him guilty.

Here's a report of the 1996 trial:
http://www.r3.org/trial/index.html
and here the 1997 trial:
http://www.r3.org/trial/trial2.html

Note, however, if you read these reports that they come from a website which is dedicated to "a reassessment of the reputation of Richard III." Which is code for "down with More and up with Richard." However, if you understand their bias, there is some good information here.
http://www.r3.org/
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LizzieAnn
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Mock Trials

Thanks for the links Everyman, they were an interesting read. They brought up lots of interesting points, including the fact that there's a Richard III chapter here in the US and that this centuries-old case was "tried" according to American standards. I wonder if the verdict would be different if it were done by lawyers & judges in the UK.



Everyman wrote:
It may be of interest to note that there were, in the late 1990s, two trials of Richard III, charging him with the murder of the princes.

In 1996, the Indiana University School of Law held a mock trial of Richard before a panel of three distinguished judges, lead by U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Rehnquist found Richard not guilty.

Then in 1997, the Lawyers' Committee for the Shakespeare Theater in Washington, D.C held a mock trial before three Supreme Court justices: Rehnquist again (though in real life he would have had to recuse himself!) and Justices Ruth Bader Ginsberg and Stephen Breyer. This panel also found that the prosecution had not proved their case. C-Span planned to broadcast this trial at a later date: I don't know whether they ever actually did.

Of course, not guilty may mean innocent in law, but doesn't necessarily mean innocent in fact. But it's perhaps of interest that the legal evidence against him isn't sufficient to find him guilty.

Here's a report of the 1996 trial:
http://www.r3.org/trial/index.html
and here the 1997 trial:
http://www.r3.org/trial/trial2.html

Note, however, if you read these reports that they come from a website which is dedicated to "a reassessment of the reputation of Richard III." Which is code for "down with More and up with Richard." However, if you understand their bias, there is some good information here.
http://www.r3.org/


Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon