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03FLHT2
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

How does a CD compare to a Digital version of a Book and not a physical copie.  I can give CD away and loan as many times as I want.  Does not compute in this picture.

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gandalf1369
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

 


sub_rosa wrote:

gandalf1369 wrote:

Come on people - get a life . . . . .

 

All of us who bought an e-reader, be it the nook, Kindle, Sony, Kobo, etc. knew BEFORE WE BOUGHT THE DEVICE what the price of ebooks were.  None of the retailers try to hide the price - all the prices are prominently displayed on their respective websites.

 

If you don't agree with the price, then why did you buy an e-reader??!!

 


You get a life - and a clue.  When I bought my Nook, eBooks were advertised as bestsellers being $9.99 and under.  It was only a few short months later when the Agency Model Publishers changed their practices.

 


Ohhh . . .  testy ain't we . . . .   :smileywink:

 

**** He Who Dies With The Most Toys Wins ****
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JohnP51
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

As I said, there is nothing illegal about the so-called Agency Model. Not that I know of. If you don't want to pay $.01 more for a book, don't. Its really that simple. What is missing in this whole discussion is a sense of perspective. You Agency Model dissenters are not using 3 simple words in your posts: "in my opinion".

 

  1. In your opinion $10.00 is too high but $9.99 is okay.
  2. In your opinion the "Agency Five" should be drawn and quartered. Okay, I may have exagerated a bit on that one.
  3. In your opinion, ebook publishers and resellers should ask you what you think they should sell their products for.
  4. In your opinion, any marketing scheme that earns someone a profit is not right.

Unless something has changed recently, businesses are still allowed to sell their products and services at whatever price they think the market will bear. Just as any employee has the right to pursue higher wages for his or her labor. Or an NFL player or Hollywood actor has the right to command a higher price for his or her talent. If the market will bear it, it gets paid.

 

If I disagree with the price, I simply don't buy it. In effect, I am indirectly using step 3 above. It is much more effective than posting threads on here ad infinitum about how evil the "Agency Five" are. Or is it is? Anyhow, as I've said many times, as long as the model does not eliminate competition and is not deemed illegal then what I feel is right or not right comes into play when and where I choose to spend my money. If enough people agree with me, the vendor will usually get the message and change course. Some in here are old enough to remember the "New Coke" fiasco many years ago. That is a good example of what I'm talking about.

 

"Free enterprise" and "profit" are not dirty words. Now, was that so hard to understand?

John

"Books are for people who wish they were somewhere else." ~ Mark Twain
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03FLHT2
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

JohnP51   Hmmmmmmm          I think in todays world it is or they act like it is.

Nallia
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

In my opinion, $12.99 and $14.99 are too much for an ebook for me.  I would rather buy the harcover in that case.  Yes, I am one of those evil people doing exactly what the publishers are hoping I will do.  Oh, well.  I would have done it anyway.  Having a NOOK hasn't stopped me from buying my many hardcovers.  The Agency Model has done nothing but often prevent me from buying the ebook as well.

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ABthree
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

@JohnP51

 

What you lay out is a pretty good summary of one side of the anti-Agency argument, the one that can be summarized as "$9.99 or nothing!"  I privately think of this as the stupid anti-Agency argument.  I often pay more than $9.99 for a book, I have no objection to publishers and resellers charging whatever they think they should get, and I don't expect them to consult me first.  (I don't have time for that either, unless they're paying! :smileywink:)

 

It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think, though, that what Apple and the Agency Five did in April is legal.  Until 2007, it had seemed  pretty clear for almost 100 years that what they did was illegal -- a "per se" violation of the Sherman Act.  In that year, the Supreme Court confused the issue, not by making "resale price maintenance" legal, but by moving it from the "per se" , i.e., automatically illegal, category to the "rule of reason" category, where a determination of its legality in a particular case required review by a court.  Obviously, that determination has yet to be made.

 

What I object to is the power of the publishers to control reseller pricing decisions.  It's inherently anti-competitive, and I'd object to it even if the publishers decreed that all eBooks would cost $5 each.  When the wheels of justice complete their agonizingly slow grind, I expect the judgment to be that Apple and its co-conspirators have broken the law.  I hope that at that time the penalties are proportional to the brazenness of their actions, and with the length of time they've been permitted to get away with it.  

 

Drawing and quartering is no longer part of our law (at least at the Federal level; you'll have to fill me in about Texas), so that's not on the table.  Hard time in General Population at a medium-security prison should provide a satisfactory lesson in the seriousness of the antitrust laws, I think.  :smileyhappy:

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+in your kindness, make the wicked become good.+
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flyingtoastr
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

Eh, making the agency model illegal would just force everyone back into the wholesale method, which would once again leave Amazon knocking everyone else out of the market with anticompetitive loss leading. Lose lose.

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ABthree
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

 


flyingtoastr wrote:

Eh, making the agency model illegal would just force everyone back into the wholesale method, which would once again leave Amazon knocking everyone else out of the market with anticompetitive loss leading. Lose lose.


 

Not necessarily.  There are two considerations that could prevent that result:

 

1. Amazon may well decide that losing money on every sale is no longer a good idea, or

 

2. "Predatory Pricing"  is also against the law, and they could be charged with it.   It's curious to me that none of Amazon's competitors filed a PP complaint before Agency Pricing went into effect.  Maybe the market was still insufficiently developed. 

 

Still, the relative silence of the competition over Amazon's pricing policies is strange.  Maybe the economics of eBooks look different from the booksellers' executive offices from the way they look to us, and the losses aren't as big as we assume.  I don't see how that can be, but there seems to be a piece of the puzzle missing.

 

At any rate, we'll never know the true balance until the publishers are forced to take their thumbs off the scale.

+LORD, preserve the good in their goodness, and+
+in your kindness, make the wicked become good.+
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JustTrish
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.


sub_rosa wrote:

Bad information.  Music prices have gone down.  CD prices were all over the board, and it wasn't unusual to find CD's priced at 15.99 and up.  Just about fifteen minutes ago I paid 12.99 for J Dilla's "Ruff Draft" double CD.  How much is it on iTunes?  9.99.  How'd you guess?  The music industry has adjusted after getting its brains kicked in when the digital revolution began.  You'd think the publishing industry would've learned something.

 


This is true and as per a federal case decision yesterday on Eminem's case, digital music is not really owned, it's licensed.  Yes, I know there's an automatic appeal to that decision, but it's interesting how conveniently the supporters of high-priced ebooks fail to mention that ebooks you think you own are not really a tangible asset of any sort, nor do they really "belong" to you, nor can you transfer ownership of them to anyone else.  They are merely licensed to you.

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_deb_
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Re: Publication costs


JohnP51 wrote:

bklvr896 wrote:

 


FrogAlum wrote:

 


DLCrouch wrote:

I'm not an accountant nor do I play one on TV. Reading is one of my favorite leisure time activities and the idea of sitting on home or on a plane w/o something to read is a frightening thought.

I've put aside all the fretting of eBook vs.. Hardback vs.. Paperback pricing and buy new eBooks when the mood strikes and I feel it's worth the price. I'm not a complete spendthrift, so I do read book reviews, talk to friends with similar tastes and always check public libraries before purchases.

If I obsess about eBook pricing like I do about electronics and sports equipment, I'd never have anything to read.

All that said, I am curious to see how all this plays out - I'm a big fan of the online subscription models like Rhapsody and Netflix offer for music and video. Wonder how they'd price an all you can read best seller plan?

 


I am an accountant and believe in your philosophy all the way!  :smileyhappy:

 


This is a me too post.  I am also an accountant and while I pay attention to the prices, I don't obsess about them, I have my various price points and I'll either buy it or not.  I will say though, where I used to buy the HC books for several authors whenever they first came out, I am a little bit more price conscious these days.  I've found that some authors that I previously felt the need to read immediately, I no longer have that need, so I will now put the book on my wish list and wait for the price to come down and/or look for at the library.  In that respect, I'm a more price conscious book consumer these days.  (However, I've yet to find a book that I'm willing to pay $14.99 for the eBook).

 


Add me to the list. I am a Certified Public Accountant licensed in the Great State of Texas. Yeah I know but you know how Texans like to brag.  Buy it or don't buy it. It's a consumer's option to do so. The other side issues are phoney baloney issues that accomplish nothing other than taking away from our reading time.


I am not a CPA but a full time working professional raising a family consisting of 1 husband, 4 children (3 still at home and teens), 3 dogs, and 2 cats on a balanced budget.  That should qualifiy me to speak up and say......ME TOO....well, too...right?  :smileyhappy:

Hope to see you later at...



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sub_rosa
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.


flyingtoastr wrote:

 

The music industry hasn't changed their pricing a lick - list prices are the MSRP and they've stayed roughly the same since the digital revolution. They're still asking for the same amount for CD's, the retailers are just cutting their margins more in an effort to get you to buy physical over digital.

 

Seems quite pertinent when you're talking about how "CD's have gotten cheaper as a result of the digital sales from the industry's perspective". They haven't.


I don't recall anyone making the claim highlighted above.  Too often you argue what you want to argue against rather than what's actually being said.  MUSIC has gotten cheaper as a result of the digital revolution.  CDs that would have sold for $14-15 for a physical copy can now be purchased for $9.99 pretty much across the board on iTunes.  Do you dispute that?  I used the J Dilla example earlier.  There are hundreds, if not thousands, of examples I could cite.

 

What an arbitrary price point - $9.99.  Where'd they get that one?  Heaven knows it didn't come from me.  Maybe they pulled it out of thin air.  But it's there, and it's real, and it's the industry standard for a digital copy of a CD.

 

The same logic applies to eBooks.  It does.  If not, please explain.

 


Don't buy from Random House, Macmillan, or Penguin until the agency model is COMPLETELY dead.
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frantastk
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

 


sub_rosa wrote:

 

I don't recall anyone making the claim highlighted above.  Too often you argue what you want to argue against rather than what's actually being said.  MUSIC has gotten cheaper as a result of the digital revolution.  CDs that would have sold for $14-15 for a physical copy can now be purchased for $9.99 pretty much across the board on iTunes.  Do you dispute that?  I used the J Dilla example earlier.  There are hundreds, if not thousands, of examples I could cite.

 

What an arbitrary price point - $9.99.  Where'd they get that one?  Heaven knows it didn't come from me.  Maybe they pulled it out of thin air.  But it's there, and it's real, and it's the industry standard for a digital copy of a CD.

 

The same logic applies to eBooks.  It does.  If not, please explain.

 


 

Dang, I'd better listen to cheaper music then.  Everytime I decide I want the whole cd on iTunes, it goes for at least $11.99 all the way up to around $14.99.  I don't think I've ever gotten a whole cd on iTunes for as little as $9.99.  It's very rarely I actually want the whole cd and usually only purchase a few songs, but there have been a couple I have bought.  And again, I paid what they were worth to me.  If they hadn't been worth more than $9.99 to me I wouldn't have bought them.

 

Okay...back to your regularly scheduled programming discussing ebook prices and agency 5.  Sorry for the OT.

 

Fran

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sub_rosa
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.


QUOTE:

 

Starting next month, music fans will rarely pay more than $10 for a CD published by Universal Music Group.


The record label announced that it will test across-the-board price cuts for the rest of the year, selling CDs for suggested prices of $6 to $10, Billboard reports. The lower prices will even apply to new releases, though there will be some exceptions. Jim Urie, UMG’s distribution president and chief executive, said he hopes the price cuts will give CD sales a much-needed boost.

 

Though the so-called “Velocity” program is a trial run, it just might work. Trans World Entertainment, which operates FYE and other retail stores, recently began testing the $10 CD model at 100 stores. Sales doubled, and that’s partly why UMG is trying out lower prices.
But so far, UMG is going it alone, as other major labels question the decision. Billboard says some executives were “annoyed” with the move, and others are nervous. Said one unnamed major label executive: “Why does Universal feel the need to get below $10?”


At the risk of sounding silly, I’m reminded of the story behind Subway’s $5 foot-long sandwiches. It started when one franchisee in Florida tested the idea on a slow weekend, and sales suddenly went through the roof. But for a while, Subway executives scoffed at the idea, failing to see how a lower profit margin would result in bigger profits. Of course, you know the rest: Subway eventually tried the campaign nationwide, it became a huge success, and other fast food chains had to scramble to offer their own cheap deals. So, why does Universal feel the need to go below $10? Because it works.


It’s not as if the move has no precedent. Full albums typically sell for $10 on iTunes, and with people increasingly relying on MP3s for their computers and portable devices, it’s tough for CDs to complete. Yes, CDs carry extra costs, such as packaging and distribution, but those are small prices to pay if labels can get consumers to spend $10 on an entire album instead of $1 on a single song.


I applaud UMG’s decision, because I actually still enjoy the concept of a whole album and prefer to have a lossless copy of my music stored away. If UMG finds success with this test, other labels will have to wake up and follow along.


 

http://www.myce.com/news/universal-music-cuts-cd-prices-10-max-27361/

 

 


Don't buy from Random House, Macmillan, or Penguin until the agency model is COMPLETELY dead.
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JustTrish
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

[ Edited ]

 


sub_rosa wrote:

 

What an arbitrary price point - $9.99.  Where'd they get that one?  Heaven knows it didn't come from me.  Maybe they pulled it out of thin air.  But it's there, and it's real, and it's the industry standard for a digital copy of a CD.

 

The same logic applies to eBooks.  It does.  If not, please explain.

 


And let's not forget that unlike books, which are seldom read over and over again, music is played many, many times.  I have CDs from the 90s I regularly listen to and which, by now, I probably have played tens, if not hundreds of times.  My Taio Cruz Rokstarr CD, purchased on Friday through iTunes for $7.99, has already been played 21 times!

 

The average book is not read twice. 

 

Yes I understand that it takes longer than 40 minutes to read the average book, still, 21 times played x 40 mins = 14 hours of play time, which is probaby longer than I take in reading the average book.

 

I would like to see ebook prices be similar to paperback book prices, am willing to go as high as the "illogical" $9.99 price point in consideration of the fact that these books are merely licensed to me, and not truly (fully) owned.

 

flyingtoastr
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

 


sub_rosa wrote:

I don't recall anyone making the claim highlighted above.


 

To quote yourself:

 

 


sub_rosa wrote:

Bad information.  Music prices have gone down.  CD prices were all over the board, and it wasn't unusual to find CD's priced at 15.99 and up.  Just about fifteen minutes ago I paid 12.99 for J Dilla's "Ruff Draft" double CD.  How much is it on iTunes?  9.99.  How'd you guess?  The music industry has adjusted after getting its brains kicked in when the digital revolution began.  You'd think the publishing industry would've learned something.

 


Wanna try again?

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sub_rosa
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

"CD's have gotten cheaper as a result of the digital sales from the industry's perspective."

 

"The music industry has adjusted after getting its brains kicked in when the digital revolution began."

 

Not the same.  But you're accustomed to being wrong, Mayor.


Don't buy from Random House, Macmillan, or Penguin until the agency model is COMPLETELY dead.
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gailoo
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

Mark,

 

You are 100% right.  I have over 25 books on my e wishlist and I check the prices everyday.  While it is so annoying that the prices flucuate daily i refuse to buy an ebook for more then $ 9.99.

 

When I purchased my nook back in October 2009 the e books were advertised at $9.99.  I have not seen that price in months. 

 

Barnes and Noble is losing money on me monthly, weekly and daily and what I will do is wait until my e wishlist books become available as used books.

 

They are ruining, what I thought, was a great idea.

 

I am sure thousands of other customers agree.

 

Gail

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scjohanson5
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

I agree.  I also have a wish list which I check daily and have seen prices fluctuate wildly. I very seldom spend over 9.99 and will not spend that much if the book is cheaper in paperback.  I don't understand why an ebook should cost more than the paperback which is the case for several on my wish list.

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aditya
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Re: I'm a good customer - it is BN's job to force the publishers down on price, not mine.

[ Edited ]

Actually, there's a neat piece of social engineering that they could perform here :smileyhappy:. Subsidize ebooks at the cost of DTB-buyers (for environmental reasons - I'm only partly snarky here :smileytongue:). That should encourage people to jump on the ebook bandwagon. Then, once the DTB market has been suitably ... discouraged, feel free to set ebook prices as you like. Lack of E-ink was really the only last meaningful (i.e. objective, non-opinion based) excuse to stick to DTBs. After all those years of eco-terrorists shoving the "OMG don't use so much paper" down my throat, I'd love to reciprocate by taking away their DTBs :smileyvery-happy: (ok, somewhat kidding here :smileywink:).

The cake is a lie.