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Distinguished Wordsmith
gb18
Posts: 326
Registered: 12-06-2010
Wordsmith
TXAnnie
Posts: 325
Registered: 02-24-2010

Re: More agency model news....

Thank you, these articles spells it all out plain and simple.  After reading both sides of the story, I wonder what will happen to the publishing industry, Amazon, and B&N if they will be able to sell ebooks back at the $9.99 price.

Distinguished Wordsmith
bklvr896
Posts: 3,873
Registered: 12-31-2009

Re: More agency model news....


TXAnnie wrote:

Thank you, these articles spells it all out plain and simple.  After reading both sides of the story, I wonder what will happen to the publishing industry, Amazon, and B&N if they will be able to sell ebooks back at the $9.99 price.


I'd worry more about what will happen to B&N if they go back to the old pricing.   At $9.99 Amazon was selling bestsellers at about a $3 loss per book.  (Article) Amazon is a multi-million dollar international company, they can afford to take these losses on a long term basis.  B&N cannot stay competitive in that environment, they do not have the resources to continually take a loss on eBook sales.  IMHO, the agency model helped the success of the Nook by leveling the prices.  B&N would not have been able to continually match Amazon's prices.  As much as I dislike Apple, if Amazon continued to retain it's very large share of the eBook market, then there's really no competition and Amazon is then free to do whatever it wants to prices.  You would have no where else to go.

AlanNJ
Posts: 3,551
Topics: 64
Kudos: 1,291
Registered: 03-09-2010

Re: More agency model news....

I agree completely.  That said, I have no loyalty to either B&N or Amazon but I do like the Nook Simple Touch more than the Kindle Touch (from what I've seen in the store).  If Amazon starts lowering prices I will need to purchase my books from Amazon, remove DRM, and put them on my N2E.  I am not going to pay more just because it's B&N and not Amazon.  I don't have that kind of loyalty to ANY corporation.

►Without order there is chaos◄
Distinguished Wordsmith
bklvr896
Posts: 3,873
Registered: 12-31-2009

Re: More agency model news....

[ Edited ]

AlanNJ wrote:

I agree completely.  That said, I have no loyalty to either B&N or Amazon but I do like the Nook Simple Touch more than the Kindle Touch (from what I've seen in the store).  If Amazon starts lowering prices I will need to purchase my books from Amazon, remove DRM, and put them on my N2E.  I am not going to pay more just because it's B&N and not Amazon.  I don't have that kind of loyalty to ANY corporation.


Which is exactly the point, right?  I'd rather buy my books from B&N since it's a much simplier process, that said, if Amazon books were consistently $2-3 lower, economically it would be a tough choice.  If Amazon gets too much of the market share in eBooks then they can do whatever they want, and I'm betting it won't be in the consumer's best interest.

 

And not that this is really relevant to this discussion, but buying all your books from one retailer has it's advantages.  Primarily, making sure you don't buy a book again.  I have so many books now, that sometimes I look at one and I have no idea if I've bought it or not.  Reading the synopsis doesn't always help since I may have purchased it but not read it.  B&N generally keeps me from buying a book twice.  Since I do buy books from multiple retailers, I have to make sure to load all my ebooks into Calibre (which, no offense to the developers, isn't my favorite program) and then go check.  

Wordsmith
TXAnnie
Posts: 325
Registered: 02-24-2010
0

Re: More agency model news....

[ Edited ]

That's what I meant bklvr.  What will happen to each organization?  Amazon can afford to sell ebooks for  $9.99 more than B&N can afford to now. Especially with all that we are hearing about B&N trying to build up the nook portion without hurting the other portions of B&N, can it compete with Amazon?

 

Amazon's Fire now seems on top and with $9.99 ebooks, would new customers buy nook or Kindle?  Even though the nook tablet is a "better" device the $50 difference in price of the Fire made a difference to a lot of customers.  I love my nook, but when I bought it they were advertising $9.99 ebooks which was a great sales tool.  Now that Kindle seems on top of the ereader field and if it would be able to sell ebooks for $9.99 as a new customer I would have to choose Amazon and its Kindle if B&N couldn't match the price for ebooks.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens and how each organization handles whatever comes its way. As it seems now to be something that might truly happen instead of just something "in the works."

Frequent Contributor
chesspain
Posts: 54
Registered: 05-23-2010

Re: More agency model news....


AlanNJ wrote:

...If Amazon starts lowering prices I will need to purchase my books from Amazon, remove DRM, and put them on my N2E. 


Wouldn't it be easier just to root the N2E and read Amazon books with the Kindle app?

AlanNJ
Posts: 3,551
Topics: 64
Kudos: 1,291
Registered: 03-09-2010

Re: More agency model news....


chesspain wrote:

AlanNJ wrote:

...If Amazon starts lowering prices I will need to purchase my books from Amazon, remove DRM, and put them on my N2E. 


Wouldn't it be easier just to root the N2E and read Amazon books with the Kindle app?


I have no desire or need to root my N2E.  From what I've read, removing DRM is an extremely simple process and I can also maintain the integrity of my N2E which, for me, works perfectly.

►Without order there is chaos◄
Correspondent
Strayer
Posts: 401
Registered: 05-28-2011
0

Re: More agency model news....

Removing DRM and putting a book on another device is illegal. It is stealing.
Wordsmith
TXAnnie
Posts: 325
Registered: 02-24-2010

Re: More agency model news....


Strayer wrote:
Removing DRM and putting a book on another device is illegal. It is stealing.

I am not that tech savvy, wouldn't know how to go about rooting, removing DRM etc.  But from a logical point of view, if you buy something from Amazon and put it on another device (not try to sell it or anything like that) how can that be stealing?

Wordsmith
ProfReader
Posts: 1,038
Registered: 02-18-2010

Re: More agency model news....


Strayer wrote:
Removing DRM and putting a book on another device is illegal. It is stealing.

If you purchase the books and remove the DRM it is only a civil violation and no one is going to do any thing about it, when it is for your personal use. I remove the DRM from all of my books, that way I am not dependent on Adobe or anyone else now or in the future. People who purchased books from Fictionwise or Ereader.com in pdb format are not able to read those books on most of the newer ereaders because they don't support pdb's anymore.

AlanNJ
Posts: 3,551
Topics: 64
Kudos: 1,291
Registered: 03-09-2010

Re: More agency model news....


Strayer wrote:
Removing DRM and putting a book on another device is illegal. It is stealing.

Then don't do it if it bothers you so much.  I agree with you completely IF you're removing DRM to give the book to someone else.  If I'm removing DRM so I can read the book on my own device and it is a book I paid for then I couldn't care less what the law thinks.  If B&N goes out of business OR the Nook becomes obsolete because B&N farmed it out to another company (which they're considering) I am NOT going to lose my book investment.  I work hard for my money.  It was my money that paid for my books and I will do whatever it takes not to re-buy them.  Whoever created DRM should have thought it out more before putting so-called laws on the books regarding personal items.

Yes, I understand that TECHNICALLY I don't own the book and that I am only leasing it BUT I am only going to pay for it one time unless a completely different technology comes out in the future.

Too bad.

►Without order there is chaos◄
Distinguished Correspondent
compulsivereaderTX
Posts: 493
Registered: 01-09-2010

Re: More agency model news....

[ Edited ]

AlanNJ wrote:

Strayer wrote:
Removing DRM and putting a book on another device is illegal. It is stealing.

Then don't do it if it bothers you so much.  I agree with you completely IF you're removing DRM to give the book to someone else.  If I'm removing DRM so I can read the book on my own device and it is a book I paid for then I couldn't care less what the law thinks.  If B&N goes out of business OR the Nook becomes obsolete because B&N farmed it out to another company (which they're considering) I am NOT going to lose my book investment.  I work hard for my money.  It was my money that paid for my books and I will do whatever it takes not to re-buy them.  Whoever created DRM should have thought it out more before putting so-called laws on the books regarding personal items.

Yes, I understand that TECHNICALLY I don't own the book and that I am only leasing it BUT I am only going to pay for it one time unless a completely different technology comes out in the future.

Too bad.


I agree.I am soooooo tired of people piping up and falsely accusing people of theft because they altered a product that they paid for so they could then use it on a device they also paid for. Who exactly did not get paid for that product? That IS what theft is, right? Acquiring a product that you did not pay for ? or copying it from someone else or a site that you KNOW did not pay for it or was not selling it by legal means in order to avoid avoid paying for it yourself? THAT is stealing.

 

But please do not accuse me (or anyone) of stealing if I buy something from a site that I KNOW has legal permission to sell the item, paid the legal market price for it and then feel a need to actually be able to USE what I paid for. I do not currently own anything that I have removed the DRM from but I'm highly offended by people falsely accusing others of STEALING when they PAID for the dang thing.

 

 

As far as I can tell, the only one that suffers when someone buys a product from them and then strips the drm so they can use it on their Nook is Amazon, because a Kindle was not needed in order to use the book. Neither the publisher nor the author missed a single cent in sales or royalties.

 

And frankly, I was considering it before I bought my n2a card so I can now read my kindle books on my nook without all the hassle of altering all of them. I REFUSE to have to purchase another device to read what I already own. Period.

 

And it is NOT stealing to put the book on another device.  The kindle app works on computers, macs, phones, ipads. Why is it illegal simply because it is on my NOOKCOLOR? When exactly did that law get enacted? 

 

Now if the accusation was that it was illegal is one thing and so is jaywalking...but to accuse someone of STEALING???? Of owning something they did not pay for? No.

 

 

Distinguished Correspondent
compulsivereaderTX
Posts: 493
Registered: 01-09-2010
0

Re: More agency model news....

sorry. But it is very irritating when someone starts throwing false accusations around. I get riled up.

 

pamela

Wordsmith
Po1gara
Posts: 286
Registered: 11-20-2009

Re: More agency model news....

Thank you gb18 for the article links...it will be interesting to see how this all washes out.

 

While I agree that the agency model has probably been of benefit to retailers trying to compete with Amazon, I still can't wholly agree with it on principal. Usurping a retailer's right to compete in the market place on price, discounts and coupons just doesn't seem right. We were originally promised a seemingly more rational pricing scheme for ebooks...new releases under $20 (and definitely less than the hard cover price) and a drop in price when paperbacks are released (again to a price point under the paper copy price). Instead we've seen some ebook prices the same or higher than the hard cover price and no reduction in prices when paperbacks were released making the ebook more expensive than the paperback. We've also not seen the 'sort of'' promise that ebooks would be reduced over time as their paper cousins are (at least not consistantly, I won't claim its never happened). All in all, it just seems like the publishers have made it more confusing and frustrating for the consumers...as AlanNJ has said, we all work hard for our money and especially now with the economy and unemployment figures where they are, it makes it even harder to justify spending the money on what amounts to a few KB of DRM'd digital code. At least with hard cover or paperbacks you could recoup some money in used book sales.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Inspired Bibliophile
FrogAlum
Posts: 3,424
Registered: 12-25-2009
0

Re: More agency model news....


ProfReader wrote:

Strayer wrote:
Removing DRM and putting a book on another device is illegal. It is stealing.

If you purchase the books and remove the DRM it is only a civil violation and no one is going to do any thing about it, when it is for your personal use. I remove the DRM from all of my books, that way I am not dependent on Adobe or anyone else now or in the future. People who purchased books from Fictionwise or Ereader.com in pdb format are not able to read those books on most of the newer ereaders because they don't support pdb's anymore.


As someone who purchased $$$$ worth of books through Fictionwise, I totally agree.  All of those books have been converted and are settled quite comfortably on my NC and my NST.  The whole conversion process for hundreds of titles was under 5 minutes.

Distinguished Wordsmith
bklvr896
Posts: 3,873
Registered: 12-31-2009

Re: More agency model news....


Po1gara wrote:

Thank you gb18 for the article links...it will be interesting to see how this all washes out.

 

While I agree that the agency model has probably been of benefit to retailers trying to compete with Amazon, I still can't wholly agree with it on principal. Usurping a retailer's right to compete in the market place on price, discounts and coupons just doesn't seem right. We were originally promised a seemingly more rational pricing scheme for ebooks...new releases under $20 (and definitely less than the hard cover price) and a drop in price when paperbacks are released (again to a price point under the paper copy price). Instead we've seen some ebook prices the same or higher than the hard cover price and no reduction in prices when paperbacks were released making the ebook more expensive than the paperback. We've also not seen the 'sort of'' promise that ebooks would be reduced over time as their paper cousins are (at least not consistantly, I won't claim its never happened). All in all, it just seems like the publishers have made it more confusing and frustrating for the consumers...as AlanNJ has said, we all work hard for our money and especially now with the economy and unemployment figures where they are, it makes it even harder to justify spending the money on what amounts to a few KB of DRM'd digital code. At least with hard cover or paperbacks you could recoup some money in used book sales.

Just my 2 cents worth.


I've seen this happen, but I've also seen a lot of instances where it looks like the paperback is cheaper than the eBook, when looking at the main books screen.  But if you actually look at the paperback you see it has not been released yet.  A while back, someone posted a list of about 8 books where they said the eBook was higher than the paperback, while in fact, the paperback was a pre-order and had not been released.  Once the paperback was released the eBook price came down within a few days.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, where eBooks are higher than paperbacks, but the way the B&N page for the book is set up, it can appear that eBooks are higher than paperbacks, if you don't look further.

Inspired Wordsmith
keriflur
Posts: 2,204
Registered: 01-05-2010

Re: More agency model news....


Strayer wrote:
Removing DRM and putting a book on another device is illegal. It is stealing.

Yes, it's illegal.  No, it's not stealing.  You can't steal something you legally purchased and paid for.

 

Now if you go and post it for others to download without paying the rights owner, then you are stealing and helping others to steal.  (And IMO, you should be locked in a dungeon with no light and no books for the rest of your life.)

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Inspired Wordsmith
keriflur
Posts: 2,204
Registered: 01-05-2010
0

Re: More agency model news....


AlanNJ wrote:

I agree completely.  That said, I have no loyalty to either B&N or Amazon but I do like the Nook Simple Touch more than the Kindle Touch (from what I've seen in the store).  If Amazon starts lowering prices I will need to purchase my books from Amazon, remove DRM, and put them on my N2E.  I am not going to pay more just because it's B&N and not Amazon.  I don't have that kind of loyalty to ANY corporation.


So, say you think about this in terms of only yourself, not company loyalty.  If everyone jumps ship to amazon for book-buying, there probably won't be a nook 3 (as there probably won't be a B&N).  Would you be cool with that?

 

Because if the answer is no, you should probably still buy at least some of your books at B&N. :smileywink:

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keriflur
Posts: 2,204
Registered: 01-05-2010
0

Re: More agency model news....


bklvr896 wrote:

Po1gara wrote:

Thank you gb18 for the article links...it will be interesting to see how this all washes out.

 

While I agree that the agency model has probably been of benefit to retailers trying to compete with Amazon, I still can't wholly agree with it on principal. Usurping a retailer's right to compete in the market place on price, discounts and coupons just doesn't seem right. We were originally promised a seemingly more rational pricing scheme for ebooks...new releases under $20 (and definitely less than the hard cover price) and a drop in price when paperbacks are released (again to a price point under the paper copy price). Instead we've seen some ebook prices the same or higher than the hard cover price and no reduction in prices when paperbacks were released making the ebook more expensive than the paperback. We've also not seen the 'sort of'' promise that ebooks would be reduced over time as their paper cousins are (at least not consistantly, I won't claim its never happened). All in all, it just seems like the publishers have made it more confusing and frustrating for the consumers...as AlanNJ has said, we all work hard for our money and especially now with the economy and unemployment figures where they are, it makes it even harder to justify spending the money on what amounts to a few KB of DRM'd digital code. At least with hard cover or paperbacks you could recoup some money in used book sales.

Just my 2 cents worth.


I've seen this happen, but I've also seen a lot of instances where it looks like the paperback is cheaper than the eBook, when looking at the main books screen.  But if you actually look at the paperback you see it has not been released yet.  A while back, someone posted a list of about 8 books where they said the eBook was higher than the paperback, while in fact, the paperback was a pre-order and had not been released.  Once the paperback was released the eBook price came down within a few days.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, where eBooks are higher than paperbacks, but the way the B&N page for the book is set up, it can appear that eBooks are higher than paperbacks, if you don't look further.


Well, it definitely does happen.  The most commonly cited example is Atlas Shrugged, which used to be $7 for the paperback and $28 for the ebook.  As you can see they're now only $3 apart, but that's still an extra $3 for the ebook over the paperback.

 

I've also seen a number of instances where a book doesn't have a HC release, so the new release is paperback, and because B&N can discount the paperback, the ebook is more expensive.  In fact, for almost all of the authors that I read that have paperback new releases, I can't think of one where the ebook wasn't more expensive.

 

FWIW, most of the cases where the ebook is more expensive are from Penguin.

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Currently Reading: The Only Ones