04-26-2011 05:36 PM
youcalif... you understand that B&N did not create Android right? They use an open source to create the O/S that is your nook color. "
A. ah, hmmm, yes
The nook color is a limited tablet, by design. They then take apps written for that open source, playable on all devices and charge more to use it on thier limited device, and you have no choice.
A. The Nook Color is first a Android platform device, capable of operating as a tablet, development paid for by B&N to SELL said platform to customers, in addtion to SELL ebooks, apps, and accessories. In other words B&N is a business trying to make a buck, likewise the app developers who offer their CERTIFIED app for a price in NC App store. B&N like Apple and Amazon will continue to sell something for whatever price the market will bear. The "Open Source software" is software that has an open license. You can copy it, develop it, and even sell it yourself. You must provide attribution to the designer. Android and the derivitives are not public domain, people charge money for this stuff.
Your response to 'root' is not the answer. You know full well that rooting voids warranty.
A. PROVE IT! Show me one Nookcolor that has not been replaced by B&N due to rooting that resulted in bricking the NC.
So people are looking for fair play in the app market place for thier device.
A. There is nothing about fair in the seller/purchaser arangement, assuming such is foolishness for kids. You pay, you expect, your expectations are not met, you complain and next time go buy something else. Most reputable sellers try to meet the expectations that their product and their hype create, to a point. There are plenty of examples of sellers that fail to meet expectation and thus either the company fails or that product fails.
Seriously would you buy say a CD from Best Buy for $12.99 rather than $9.99 in Wal-Mart next door just becuase you like Best-buy more? Likely not, people go with price first and foremost, but in the case of nook, there is no alternative store.
A. You're either very naive or don't understand reality. This happens everyday, here is one example, down the street from where I live is Walmart and Costco they share the same giant lot. Costco sells many of the same products for less than Walmart, yet both stores are busy. You want to guess which sells some of the same items for 10-30% less? I was in sales for years, and would beat the competition's price/quality/availability all the time and that client would still buy that item from another source, price is NOT the only driving/determining factor in making a purchase. I have purchased several $$$$ of electronic stuff on Ebay, there is a lot of people that wouldn't touch buying electronic stuff on ebay (search my aka and you will find that discussion on this forum), I saved 30-50% yet others ignore the savings and successful purchases and pay more to buy from B&M store.
So for the same app, it's price gouging becuase there is no alternative. People have a legitmate reason to complain.
A. It is NOT the same app, it is a certified to run on Nookcolor app, how many apps on your Android ph have you tried to install that didn't work as advertised? You have an alternative ROOT (at least you have that option). Yeah you can complain, at least B&N provides a forum for you to complain,
Yes you can root. And if they continue to over charge more people will, and that will have a negative effect on the growth of the B&N app market.
A. As far as I know Rooting has put the Nookcolor on the map as a very hot product. That won't change. Several are working on a root that will leave you with the NC 1.2 and a way to still have access to Google's App Market. You shouldn't panic, because fortunately B&N sold you an amazing product with so much potential compared to other similar devices costing $$$ hundreds more.
04-26-2011 05:59 PM
Let's remember that it is not B&N that decides which app a developer offers to put on their app store it's the developers who decide. B&N is probably looking for assurances that the apps offered will run well on the NC but if Rovio who makes at least 7 versions of Angry Birds only wants to offer the HD version at $2.99 that's what will be in the B&N store. They can try to persuade a developer to offer different apps but I don't think they can make them and for something with only a few million units sold a developer may not care.
B&N doesn't set the price either though I'm wondering why they didn't persuade Epicurious to have their app for free - I'm not totally sure that it's the same app found on the Android Market, maybe it's different and thus the price.
Why is it that B&N is held up to be like a saint headed for martyrdom? B&N is the victim. B&N doesn't set the price. B&N has no choice. All that accomplishes is to make the company look inept and their research department look like a bunch of bufoons.
B&N knew they were planning an app store, so why didn't THEY do the research? It's a simple matter to look in two different market places for comparison. B&N does have a choice. They can choose to refuse anything.
They also kept a bunch of developers in the dark just like they did all of the customers. There are developers who were crying for more information and were ready and even anxious to participate. They got nada for information.
A company can also make money based on popularity, availability and selection. But it can lose money and sales based on higher pricing to a captive audience, and that's why it's being referred to as price gouging.
And you can't say that everyone knew what they were getting into when they bought the device. With no information forthcoming from the company, there are a whole lot of people here who bought their device based on speculation, hype and derision from other users, misinformed TV shows and employees that were willing to say anything to make a sale.
I'm seriously thinking about rolling mine back to 1.1, even though I've shelled out some cash for the apps, because I had a unit that worked very well, with only extremely minor problems that a simple reset fixed. But the update has caused such a deterioration in performance that it may not be worth the trouble. It would be nice to have something that did multiple tasks, but at what cost? I bought the nook color to read my color books. Perhaps B&N has gotten in over their heads.
04-26-2011 06:14 PM
I don't feel attacked and I don't think this is a black and white issue. Like I said, I was curious. Add insomnia to that and, well...
04-26-2011 06:26 PM
I was curious after all the talk yesterday that most of the apps in the NOOK Shop could be gotten from the Android Market for free, so I looked all of them up. Here is what I found:
Of the 139 apps currently in the NOOK Shop, 45 are not in the Android Market at all. Three of the apps are cheaper on B&N than anywhere else, and 28 are cheaper on the Android Market than on B&N. Of the 28 apps that are cheaper on the Android Market, 11 of those are free.
Most excellent, Nallia! Better to light one candle, than curse the darkness. You really lit things up.
Thanks very much! (You saved me a bunch of time, because I was planning on doing this myself.)
04-26-2011 06:54 PM
THANK YOU for your exhaustive effort ! This is the kind of gold-standard detailed comparison people often pay for, and you've done this for teh freezies and the result: we Nook Readers all can make more informed app purchases!
04-26-2011 06:56 PM
Yocalif... learn some civility! People who don't share your opinion are not wrong, they just have a different opinion. At this point my opinion of you is a kid overly protective of thier new toy and snapping at those who come too close to it. You come across as overl desperate to justify the expense, perhaps so you don't feel ripped off yourself, or perhaps it's just because you are passionate about the NC. Either way, not someone I'll spare anymore time trying to discuss opposing positions with. The world is a better place when you see things from other another perspective. I expressed concern at being charged more for the SAME app, nothing more. Unique apps, customized to nook apps, perhaps... the same app, not right.
.... Just my opinion of course.
04-26-2011 07:01 PM
krighton escriban: "way too many kid books, how many kids have their own nook color.....increase grownup apps please."
I frequently see The Under-10 Youth Of Today sporting beaucoups costly electronics, an iPod touch here, a PSP there, a Nintendo GameBoy Advance there - all costing in proximity if not higher than a Nook Color. The games ain't as cheap as any volume from the Kid's section, either.
04-26-2011 07:16 PM
After reading this thread, and I really have no dog in this fight, since I'm rooted and have no intention of installing 1.2 for some time...all I have to say is...
Spellchecker...it's what's for dinner!
We have cookies.
04-26-2011 07:20 PM
Yocalif... learn some civility! .......I expressed concern at being charged more for the SAME app, nothing more. Unique apps, customized to nook apps, perhaps... the same app, not right.
.... Just my opinion of course.
A legitimate concern. NOW heres the thing. The BN store is just a hair over 24 hours old. it opened at retal prices (most new stores do) As time goes on those price will vary (specials, freebies promotions etc.) JUST as they do in the android market and especially the Amazon store. Online retail isn't much different than B & M. All retail is market driven.
The other rule of retail (from a consumers standpoint) is the sooner you buy a new product ibrought to market the more you pay. I can remember when Angry Birde was NEVER free. The intresting thing about "apps" is that many of the free ones(and some of the paid ones) are really nothing more than what back in the desk top PC days were called '"desk top short cuts," others do what larger web browser used to to do we even developd other software to get rid of what some of these apps do now. We used to call some of that tracking software spy ware for example now we call it "pulse" and "facebook" Occasionaly (okay alot) they follow the Gillete theory of retail free apps, but to make them work you eventually buy more (or the free trial hidden in the fine print goes away) or like city search on android you miss the really fine print and start getting charged if you don't tell them to stop (or netflix, Hulu+ etc. etc.
04-26-2011 07:20 PM
121. The Missing Sync for Android - Mark/Space Inc.
...on the Android Market. The full version costs $39.95. You have to buy it from the developer there. I have it for my phone. It's pricey but was well worth it since I had to be able to sync my contacts and calendar from Outlook and nothing else does that (that I know of).
Works great - I only hate that I have to buy it AGAIN for my NC!
This is one area I definitely agree. While complaining about rebuying a $1 or $2 app seems kind of pointless, here you're talking about some significant money, and it's an investment that should get you a license to use.
But it doesn't, since as Netscorer pointed out, everywhere else Android apps are licensed to an account. While on the Nook, they're licensed to a device (technically the account linked to that device, but the point remains). Which means you can't take your purchases on the Nook anywhere else, nor bring in purchases you've made elsewhere.
"Please remove all watches, shoes, and other clothing before entering the building. We will sell you replacement items once inside, but you will not be permitted to take them outside with you." Yeah, I know it's a bit exaggerated.
On this one, and a handful of others, a re-buy is moderately painful. But in these cases, the vendor could offer an alternate version of the license (a different software name), at some nominal charge like $5, that would be enough to cover the cost of confirming the previous outside purchase and linking them. Even a half-price option would be appreciated by many folks. It's just that no mechanisms are in place to make this feasible yet.
I'm not ranting or complaining, simply observing that some things haven't been worked out as well as they potentially could be.
04-26-2011 07:27 PM
Mark - very valid point! It is the re-buy that is the killer.
I think those kinks will be worked out though soon. I talked for over 30 minutes with customer support at Mark/Space over the pricing issue with The Missing Sync for Android today. (See my earlier post: http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/t5/NOOKcolor-G
They are right now working with B&N on changing the price in the B&N Market to fix the issue of paying for their product twice. I think just a little patience will fix some of these big pricing disparties. In the meantime - letting B&N and the developers know about pricing issues might help them work these things out soon.
04-26-2011 07:30 PM
dfehling I'm using Touchdown to sync from my work's outlook, it gives me claendar, contacts and mail...it's available on B&N, 30 day free trial and $19.99 for full version
Fred, that's cool. Thanks for the info.
How do the 30-day Free Trials work? Two separate apps, with one the full license?
04-26-2011 07:47 PM
04-26-2011 08:13 PM - edited 04-26-2011 08:15 PM
Barnes and noble also doesn't charge a buttload of money for data plans and the like to help defray the cost of broadband usage and storage for said programs like phone companies and others.
04-26-2011 09:10 PM
Okay, so let's just assume that it IS the developers setting the price.
Why would B&N not say "whoa there, you can't charge that! People won't pay more than elsewhere. If anything this is going to make them root the device even more. This will reflect badly on us and lose future app sales."
If you really think a small or even nonexistent price difference (please don't compare ad-supported vs. ad-free) will lose customers for B&N and cause them to root, then what about the cost difference of "can't be had at any price on the NC"? Considering there are ~2000x more apps in the A-Market, that's a pretty big inducement to root.
...They [developers] would have no reason whatsoever to decline a B&N request for general (better/comparable) app market pricing.
Really? Leaving aside the ad-revenues, which obviously are significant, given the large # of ad-based "free" Android apps, you don't think a customer-base of 2M or less vs. 100M+ is a factor in pricing? And they'd just acquiesce to their prices being controlled?
Remember this is not costing them any more. Nothing about the app makes it 'nook compatible' at a code level (and the apps scale to the screen size in most cases). It doesn't run on NC it runs on android.
Sure, nothing at all. They just take their existing apps and submit them to B&N, who loads them on to the store. Honestly, when you haven't got a clue what you're talking about, maybe you shouldn't be doing so. There's no question that additional time and effort are required to test on the Nook, and submit a revised version to the Nook App Shop.
The developers will offer what apps they want made available based on possible relevance, but B&N will control what is actually listed, and I believe, control the cost.
You are free to believe anything you like. That doesn't mean you are correct, or can convince others of your beliefs.
You could argue that B&N can't say "no" to the developers if they want apps in the B&N store. But really?
B&N says no to devs every day. If devs don't meet B&N's criteria, they won't even let them test their apps on the NC.
I am happy that we have an app market place. I fully accept that app selection will be limited, and should be so. But I really don't understand why people think it acceptable to have to pay more for the same thing.
I agree with you... you really don't understand. That's OK. You keep saying "the same thing", but that doesn't make it so. If one is ad-supported and another not, then the price will differ. Is that really so difficult to understand?
<comparison lost here due to a browser glitch>
I think it's unfortunate that you feel like you're getting ripped off. And you can't understand that they're simply not "the same thing". With 50x as many potential customers, the A-Market is a whole different arena.
04-26-2011 10:03 PM
It doesn't matter if it's 1 or 100, why should B&N charge more for an (identical) app? If the answer is 'it's ad free' why are we not offered the alternative ad based version? I understand that they want some control over what apps are available, and that they need to fit in to the reading theme in some manner. But preventing access to free or cheaper versions of the same app is not customer friendly.
He is also 100% correct that there is no difference in the free Angry Birds from this 'HD' version for $2.99. Clearly marking up for the huge popularity of this title.
Here is a challenge for all of you but specifically for Knowledge70, netscorer and Desert_Brat: Post a valid link where the Android version of Angry Birds HD is being given away for free as on right now.
You won't be able to because its doesn't exist. It’s not available anywhere but on the B&N app store. Sure it’s available on iTunes, for more money and it’s not the same app as Apple products run iOs not Android.
If this EXACT SAME GAME comes out tomorrow on the Android Market or elsewhere for free, you will have a point. As of this moment, you don’t. And BTW how do you KNOW it's the EXACT same game? Have you seen them side by side? Can you tell the difference? This is why I’m interested in knowing if the Epicurious app is the exact same app that is free on the Market. From what I’ve gathered so far it seems it’s also a different app.
If you want to buy a certain movie you will pay more for the version with wide screen, directors cut, out takes, etc. than for the plain movie. You have a choice of which version to buy and it may not be the less expensive one. You may say you don’t have a choice about which Angry Birds version you want to buy, but you do have a choice because you can always root. And no, I’m not convinced that under current US laws your hardware warranty is void if you root.
You have all shown that you haven't even thought about how all this works. B&N is not Apple, neither are they saints, martyrs or victims. They are a corporation with a responsibility to their stockholders. They have not sold hundreds of millions of units. They are in no position to tell developers, especially established developers of apps everyone wants "or else" the way Apple can. As of right now, B&N needs these developers more than the developers need B&N.
So I totally agree about one thing – it is all about money. If you want free technology go see the devs at XDA, and even they ask for donations.
It’s obvious B&N decided to stay with the same business model that the other app stores are using – we approve the app, developer sets the price and B&N gets 30%. Sure they set up a developers program but many got frustrated because B&N wasn’t being very communicative. Probably because they expending their energies trying to get developers with well known apps that everyone wants.
Nothing is free. If you don't like paying for apps that are "free" elsewhere I suggest you get used to it on all tablets and I'll tell you why. You think Rovio got to be a company valued at nearly USD 300MM and over USD 7MM in sales giving a way a game for free? Do you think they got US 42MM from investors and are considering a US IPO based on a free game?
The game comes in 2 forms - one add free costing USD 0.99 on the Android Market and elsewhere. The free version comes with ads. As most Android devices are phones at the moment that is a decent business strategy and phone users can't avoid the ads because they are always connected. Enter the newest Android devices the tablets - and I'm not just talking about the NC. Since they are not phones they are not always connected and in fact it's recommended that you not be connected all the time in order to conserve the battery. If the user is not connected the use is not exposed to ads. How much ad revenue do you think that will bring in? As a solid business decision would you think it wise to invest in that sort of advertising?
We don’t know what went on behind the scenes but here’s a feasible speculation – B&N want a hot app like Angry Birds on their store. They get into preliminary talks with Rovio about it. Rovio looks at the device, at potential revenue from the deal (see my point above) and decides that they will offer Angry Birds HD, their first Android game optimized for tablets and they want to price it at $2.99. Exclusive to B&N for the moment at least. B&N says no, what about the free version, HSN said there would be a free version, we need at least the $0.99 version. Rovio does the math and still says no, it’s this HD version or it’s no Angry Birds for you. If you were the CEO of B&N what would you do? For all we know that was what held up the update!
People have been moaning about “it’s free on the Android Market” but in reality the exact same game is not free on the Market because it’s not even available on the Market.
This is turning out to be just like the “HSN people got ripped off because they paid $50 for books that are free” debate. Just as in that, you either get the point or you don’t. Compare the same exact things before declaring something a rip off.
As for me, I chose to root and I’m enjoying all three versions of Angry Birds for free and usually with no ads.
04-26-2011 10:13 PM - edited 04-26-2011 10:17 PM
And as a side note, I personally refuse to ever buy anything from Wal Mart, regardless of price difference. I've watched that awful corporation destroy the industry I work in and I will never give them the support of my money.
I couldn't type it fast enough. You beat me. A laurel for you, my friend.
Besides, there are more alternatives than WM or BB. You're not always stuck with paying more elsewhere.
04-26-2011 10:28 PM
this is a very very long post. You sure are not shy about voicing your reasoning and I don't envy your keyboard.
Joking aside, since you mentioned me in the Email, I hope you will accept this answer. I agree. Here we go. I am not debating, you have some very good points. Of course, B&N always had a choice even in the hypothetical scenario that you described. They could, for example, go Amazon way and sponsor the app cost for the initial launch. They decided not to. I am not blaming them for that. It is their decision, and they obviously took their sweet time to analyze possible outcomes before making it. I also accept that the financial side of launching Ad-sponsored apps on Wi-Fi only devices can, in fact, be different from mobile phones. I simply don't know enough. Neither do you, by the way. We can just speculate. I only made point that this so called 'HD' version of Angry Birds looks and feels the same as the regular one I used to have when I had my Nook rooted. I can't compare them side by side since I only have one Nook and I can't have it both running rooted version and stock at this time. Hovewer, if you think that this version is miles better, you have full right to disagree with me and others here who stated that both versions are very similar and provide your proof. The fact that both regular and 'HD' versions look very similar actually speaks volumes to the quality of Android ecosystem that allows to scale apps so nicely. Apple fans can only dream about such thing.
Oh, and as for your movie analogy, I got a similar one. Let's say you already have a DVD of your favorite movie and now the studio announces a Blu-Ray edition. You are all excited, you count the days until a release and when you finally buy it and bring home you see that even on your brand-new HDTV, the Blu-Ray looks just the same as DVD you had for the past several years. The difference is just not there. Maybe your TV is so good at scaling the DVD resolution, maybe studio used old unedited transfer for the new release. All you know is what you see and your eyes tell you that there is zinch improvement.
04-26-2011 10:35 PM
To Netscorer and Knowledge 70, you kids need to grow up, you both are too thin skinned, whenever you post something in a public forum you can bet that people will disagree. Sometimes that disagreement is not rolled up in a lacy doily and sugar coated, instead it is straight shooting, to the point and attempts to carefully cover the points and be clear on the opposing point. The last thing you can expect from me is a PC response. Lets get something straight, I didn't attack either of you, personally, I covered only what you stated. However, Knowledge70 I did use the statement "You're either very naive or don't understand reality." and then backed up that observation with an example. Saying someone is naive isn't necessarily an insult, my 31,28,25 yr old kids are naive, yet college educated and smart, but they still are naive, and miss or don't understand some basic things about the real world, but that is ok I love them.
So Knowledge70 like your other opinions you are wrong again I'm not a kid. You don't have to post if you are afraid of how people will challenge your thoughts. Frankly I don't think either of you showed us a reasonable position and failed to express your opinions with sound arguments, You both now have resorted to attack the person and not the thoughts to gain the higher ground, and then knowledge70 you refuse to continue the debate with someone as if you are morally superior for this. It is sad that you both choose to drop down into the gutter (although you both do it civily, howver it is still the gutter) instead of sticking to arguing your point of view.
I will say any further rebuttal only distracts further from the OPs thread, but on this forum, forum etiquette has been lacking for some time, so fire away....
04-26-2011 10:37 PM
Here is a challenge for all of you but specifically for Knowledge70, netscorer and Desert_Brat: Post a valid link where the Android version of Angry Birds HD is being given away for free as on right now.
Sorry, your challenge is misplaced in my case. I actually purchased Angry Birds. And, frankly, I could care less whether it is HD or not. I play free ad-sponsored games all the time through iWin and Wild Tangent on my laptop. And with iWin, it actually interrupts the game to play the ad promos.
It's my understanding the ad-based apps are merely a banner at the top of the screen. I have no other Android devices and cannot speak to those apps.
I do have an iTouch that is loaded with 7 screens of apps, most free and ad-based, and it doesn't detract from their enjoyment. Even some of the apps that were purchased have ads. It's one of the new revenue bases, I'll direct your attention to the right side of the forum screens.