Reply
Wordsmith
KingAl
Posts: 549
Registered: ‎11-16-2010
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales


MikeFromMesa wrote:

.

 

As far as the Agency Model, I continue to be surprised that no one has filed a lawsuit since price fixing has long been against the law here in the US.

  

 


I'm also surprised, but the US Supreme Court has ruled that vertical price fixing (which the Agency Model is) is not necessarily illegal.

Distinguished Bibliophile
deemure
Posts: 3,933
Registered: ‎12-28-2009

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

 


KingAl wrote:

MikeFromMesa wrote:

.

 

As far as the Agency Model, I continue to be surprised that no one has filed a lawsuit since price fixing has long been against the law here in the US.

  

 


I'm also surprised, but the US Supreme Court has ruled that vertical price fixing (which the Agency Model is) is not necessarily illegal.


Thus proving the politicization of the Court.  Price fixing is price fixing.  Give me a break.  Vertical price fixing, what a joke.  No wonder people are so obsessed with having money, it's the only thing anyone listens to anymore.

"I still believe in spite of everything that people are good at heart." Anne Frank.
Distinguished Bibliophile
roustabout
Posts: 3,571
Registered: ‎03-31-2011
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

what seems to be the logical step to me is for BN and Amazon to strip everything but reading functionality from their ipad apps and to do browser detection to prevent purchases being made from their websites via the ipad browser.

 

As far as I know, if they do these things, they can comply with Apple's requirement - they will not be selling content on the ipad - and avoid paying Apple what amounts to more than all of their profits on ipad sales. 

 

I don't know if Apple is trying to further restrict any company that has an app on the ipad from selling content anywhere at all on the web.  I had thought not, that the requirement was that in-app sales include a kickback to Apple, and that there not be a way to sell content directly on the ipad which bypassed either itunes or the in-app sales rule. 

 

It will actually be harder for Amazon than BN to deal with the content issue.  BN's terrible DRM scheme will help them here, as it's not tied to a unique a device ID but to name and credit card #, where the Amazon app needs to have access to a piece of data that's unique to the installed software instance.  Using that token may tie the Kindle app to the iPad in a way that's legally different from the way epubs are controlled by BN. 

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
Distinguished Bibliophile
deemure
Posts: 3,933
Registered: ‎12-28-2009
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

[ Edited ]

 


roustabout wrote:

what seems to be the logical step to me is for BN and Amazon to strip everything but reading functionality from their ipad apps and to do browser detection to prevent purchases being made from their websites via the ipad browser.

 

As far as I know, if they do these things, they can comply with Apple's requirement - they will not be selling content on the ipad - and avoid paying Apple what amounts to more than all of their profits on ipad sales. 

 

I don't know if Apple is trying to further restrict any company that has an app on the ipad from selling content anywhere at all on the web.  I had thought not, that the requirement was that in-app sales include a kickback to Apple, and that there not be a way to sell content directly on the ipad which bypassed either itunes or the in-app sales rule. 

 

It will actually be harder for Amazon than BN to deal with the content issue.  BN's terrible DRM scheme will help them here, as it's not tied to a unique a device ID but to name and credit card #, where the Amazon app needs to have access to a piece of data that's unique to the installed software instance.  Using that token may tie the Kindle app to the iPad in a way that's legally different from the way epubs are controlled by BN. 


From what I understand they will actually be required to remove any thing within the app that links to their site so users cannot purchase from there unless they allow for purchases that go through itunes and are subject to the 30%.  And users are allowed to read content purchased elsewhere using, say BN's app on the ipad, but if the content was bought from BN, BN must still pay the royalty to Apple.  I will have to look it up again-you get a different version of this on the Apple websites, but one retailer that decided already to dump Apple stated this was the case.

"I still believe in spite of everything that people are good at heart." Anne Frank.
Contributor
MikeFromMesa
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎05-11-2011

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

I don't disagree with much of what you have to say. After working in the software industry for 25 years I have known my share of both Apple devotees (to whom anything else is just junk) and Apple haters who have a fair amount of venom for all things Apple.

 

For me the iPad, with the Kindle app, is a very good eReader for around the house. There its size and weight are not a problem, the display is good and (very important for me) the maps in the books I read can be enlarged using "pinch and spread". But I also have a Nook Color (and hence my presence on this Forum) and I truly like the portability and light weight of the Nook. I would prefer if it allowed both Portrait and Landscape modes for book reading, and would love if it hosted a Kindle app, but I will not hold my breath waiting for that. The Nook is really a vehicle for selling B&N books so I expect I will never see a Kindle app on it short of rooting the device.

 

On the other hand Apple often seems short-sighted to me.

 

I would love it if the iPad allowed external memory cards and provided real usb support. When my wife and I travel I tend to take lots of photos and would like to be able to store those photos on the iPad, but without external memory cards I cannot realistically do that and I ended up having to buy an external battery drive to take care of that problem. Still, my wife likes using it for slide shows of our daily pictures when we travel and it does that well.

 

If Apple closes their ebook functionality for apps such as Stanza (where you add eBook purchases through iTunes and not through the Apple store) then I will replace my iPad by something more user-friendly. In the meantime my policy is to not update my software unless there is some good reason to do so. Thus I do not have the latest OS on the iPad and I do not have the latest iTunes on my PC. I will not willingly go along as they upgrade me out of the basic functionality I have the device for to force me to buy something else.

 

But in spite of all of their limitations there are some things to say for them. The apps from their App Store seem to work reasonably well (at least for me) and I don't worry about viruses on the devices. Skype works well on Apple products, the Audible app works well on the iPhone and iTouch and, for whatever reason, when I have an issue and have to go to the Apple store in this area the place is jammed with people wanting to look and buy. I don't share their enthusiasm for Apple, but I do consider the products to work reasonably well and I have fewer issues with my iPad than I did with my Samsung Tab.

 

But, to sum up, I do not disagree with much of what you have to say. But I am grateful that they are around to act as competition for the others in the industry.

Distinguished Bibliophile
deemure
Posts: 3,933
Registered: ‎12-28-2009
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

Yeah, Mike, it's just that whenever I see anti-competitive practices by companies, I see stagnation and this taking the consumer for granted philosophy.  I want to see what a product can do for me and not what it can do for the company, because it will do good things for the company if it continues to push the limits and leads, rather than just inhibiting or sauntering on.

 

As I said, for me there are just so many people saying what the ipad isn't and it seems to deflect away from what it should be. 

"I still believe in spite of everything that people are good at heart." Anne Frank.
DeanGibson
Posts: 2,119
Topics: 92
Kudos: 2,314
Registered: ‎04-12-2011

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales


deemure wrote:

Mike, ... nor do I characterize all Apple buyers as rabid devotees.  ...  They are people that would buy a shoe box that is nothing more than that if Apple called it an iBox and Steve Jobs said it was the next best thing for storage.

 



Remember when Steve Jobs was booed by Apple fans when announcing a deal with Microsoft?

2 Nook HD/8GB + 2 Nook HD+/16GB: B&N 2.2.0 rooted
2 Nook Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1
2 Nook 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted.; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted;
Nook Color: B&N 1.4.3 rooted; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 (7.0"): Android 4.2.2 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
Never suspect intent where incompetence will do.
Distinguished Bibliophile
deemure
Posts: 3,933
Registered: ‎12-28-2009
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales


DeanGibson wrote:

deemure wrote:

Mike, ... nor do I characterize all Apple buyers as rabid devotees.  ...  They are people that would buy a shoe box that is nothing more than that if Apple called it an iBox and Steve Jobs said it was the next best thing for storage.

 



Remember when Steve Jobs was booed by Apple fans when announcing a deal with Microsoft?


I'd forgotten about the booing, but I recall MS helped bring Apple back from the brink. Many thought they'd sold out.
"I still believe in spite of everything that people are good at heart." Anne Frank.
Inspired Correspondent
Nom-de-Nook
Posts: 956
Registered: ‎08-06-2010
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

Back to the original topic, ebook sales numbers have nothing to do with device popularity.  In fact, I know several people who do not have a Nook but get ebooks from BN to read on the Ipad.  So if you are trying to equate ebook sales to the popularity of physical hardware, it aint gonna work.

Inspired Wordsmith
chuck4prez
Posts: 722
Registered: ‎04-29-2011
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales


deemure wrote:

 


KingAl wrote:

MikeFromMesa wrote:

.

 

As far as the Agency Model, I continue to be surprised that no one has filed a lawsuit since price fixing has long been against the law here in the US.

  

 


I'm also surprised, but the US Supreme Court has ruled that vertical price fixing (which the Agency Model is) is not necessarily illegal.


Thus proving the politicization of the Court.  Price fixing is price fixing.  Give me a break.  Vertical price fixing, what a joke.  No wonder people are so obsessed with having money, it's the only thing anyone listens to anymore.


Short term it's a bad thing, but long term I think it's a blessing in disguise. I think there will be a fallback that will  increase piracy for personal use (which is a political issue, not a moral issue) and in turn force the digital media market to adjust, and become a little more supply and demand based.

 

Another US supreme court ruling: It is a great use of federal funds and resources to task the FBI with the anti-piracy movement.  Because illegal copywrite infringement is such a huge risk to the security of this nation....

Distinguished Bibliophile
roustabout
Posts: 3,571
Registered: ‎03-31-2011
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

deemure writes:

 

"From what I understand they will actually be required to remove any thing within the app that links to their site so users cannot purchase from there unless they allow for purchases that go through itunes and are subject to the 30%."

 

That's my understanding as well. 

 

"And users are allowed to read content purchased elsewhere using, say BN's app on the ipad"

 

Yes, in-app purchases on the ipad must pay the fee.  That is new and annoying. 

 

"but if the content was bought from BN, BN must still pay the royalty to Apple."

 

My understanding is that the key is whther the ipad is the device used to buy the content. If the content was bought from a computer - not from the ipad - through BNs website, BN can distribute the content to the ipad app and not pay the royalty.

 

This is why I am suggesting that BN start detecting the Ipad web browsers and redirect them to a version of the store that does not support sales. 

 

There are many app developers who do not have a well-developed storefront a la BN and Amazon.  They would like to sell in-app and not pay the 30%.  It is to their advantage to muddy the water by claiming that the new policy will block BN and Amazon from selling anything anywhere if the content is ever to be used on the ipad. 

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
Wordsmith
doncr
Posts: 492
Registered: ‎12-29-2010
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

Does Apple get a 30% cut of every movie watched via Netflix?

 

Makes me wonder why the eReader isn't simply a JScript app that runs locally in a browser.  You do that and your content can be viewed on any device that has a web browser.  No more custom apps developed for each platform/device.  Seems like the way things will end up eventually.

 

 

Distinguished Bibliophile
deemure
Posts: 3,933
Registered: ‎12-28-2009
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

[ Edited ]

I believe some of this as far as what Apple will demand payment for is a question mark, since there are lawsuits pending (likely to lose given the nature of things) and Apple says "blue" while others say "yellow".  Ereading apps that have been dropped from the ipad indicate one thing, but Apple denies it.

 

Another aside is that Apple considers all content, traditional apps as well as magazines and all to be apps, this is where the fees come in.  They don't want an ereader to be a onetime fee machine.

 

What does all this have to do with the original topic-well, it says that Apple has seen the numbers and wants to get theirs moving and figures this is the way to do it.

 

There is also some wording in the new Apple guidelines that may mean that if you buy a book through the app to read, say using the kindle or nook app, it will not be available for reading any other way.  How they'd enforce this, I don't know.  There's just so much that is speculative at this point, because it's somewhat ambiguous.

"I still believe in spite of everything that people are good at heart." Anne Frank.
Inspired Wordsmith
chuck4prez
Posts: 722
Registered: ‎04-29-2011
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales


doncr wrote:

Does Apple get a 30% cut of every movie watched via Netflix?

 

Makes me wonder why the eReader isn't simply a JScript app that runs locally in a browser.  You do that and your content can be viewed on any device that has a web browser.  No more custom apps developed for each platform/device.  Seems like the way things will end up eventually.

 

 


Probably will end up that way. Seems logical to me that all our media content will just be stored in the big server in the sky and beamed down to us at our will, but not until we have payed for that content several times. 

Contributor
MikeFromMesa
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎05-11-2011
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

But if the eReader funtionality was bundled in the browser you would have to have web access to read a book and that destroys much of the functionality of devices like the Nook and the Nook Color. I know I plan to use my NC in lots of places were there is no web access.

Contributor
MikeFromMesa
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎05-11-2011
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

>>  There is also some wording in the new Apple guidelines that may mean that if you buy a book through the app to read, say using the kindle or nook app, it will not be available for reading any other way

 

And, of course, if they did something like this the first thing I would do is stop using (and buying) and iPad and get another kind of tablet - perhaps an Android based one or perhaps something like the Blackberry Playbook. I like Apple and their products, but there is only so much I am willing to put up with.

Wordsmith
doncr
Posts: 492
Registered: ‎12-29-2010
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales


MikeFromMesa wrote:

But if the eReader funtionality was bundled in the browser you would have to have web access to read a book and that destroys much of the functionality of devices like the Nook and the Nook Color. I know I plan to use my NC in lots of places were there is no web access.


Not necessarily.  The browser doesn't care where the data lives.  It's how browser caches work.  It could read from a local file on your device that was downloaded when you did have a connection.

 

 

 

 

DeanGibson
Posts: 2,119
Topics: 92
Kudos: 2,314
Registered: ‎04-12-2011
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

Unfortunately, if you are not connected to the Internet, the browsers on most of these devices will prompt you to enable Internet access every time you go to a new page, even if the page is local..

 

Be thankful;  on the Kindle DX if 3G is not on, the browser refuses to display local pages.

2 Nook HD/8GB + 2 Nook HD+/16GB: B&N 2.2.0 rooted
2 Nook Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1
2 Nook 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted.; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted;
Nook Color: B&N 1.4.3 rooted; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 (7.0"): Android 4.2.2 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
Never suspect intent where incompetence will do.
Contributor
MikeFromMesa
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎05-11-2011
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales

That presupposes that the entire book was actually downloaded to your eReader. Under normal web access there is a cache, but it is relatively small - something on the order of a single page. Then there is the issue of word definitions.

 

To work as you are suggesting what you would have to have is a browser that has all of the eReader funtionality built into it, and not just a browser being used to read a book. That is an entirely different animal from what I understood your post to mean.

Mark_OB1
Posts: 1,574
Topics: 23
Kudos: 1,358
Registered: ‎12-14-2010
0 Kudos

Re: iPad Far Behind Amazon, Barnes & Noble in E-Book Sales


deemure wrote:

 

Take the iphone-the first gen model lacked features that had for some time been standard on other phones, but it incorporated a touch interface.  Wow.  No real bluetooth, no GPS, no video capability, no voice recording, and the list goes on.  They can't have been ignorant that these things exist, because lo and behold out comes the next gen and it has some of the features that were left off from the first, but still lags behind, but great you still have the touch interface.  And so on with subsequent generations.

 

I understand where you're coming from, and agree with you to some extent.  I dislike "planned obsolescence" as much as anyone.  However, on the other side of the coin, there's something to be said for starting smaller, and doing things right.  Rather than trying to throw everything into the mix and doing a botched job.  Then later ramping up and enhancing your core product.  Apple does that pretty well.
Take another tablet like the Xoom, for example.  It was hugely hyped, and had "everything the iPad lacked".  For example, it supported Flash, and had USB ports.  Only problem was, when it shipped, it did NOT have Flash... that was "coming soon".  And the USB ports didn't even work.  I don't see Apple making boneheaded mistakes like that.  That leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.  And pricing is sky-high didn't help them either.

As far as the meaning of all this tied into this thread, Apple has seen what is happening.  People aren't buying from ibooks, so they have to stop the competition even if their users don't want the competition to go away.  Since Amazon has a large share of the ebook market, their customers with ipads want to use the kindle app.  But, they still own an ipad and will buy apps for it.  If Apple's plan makes the kindle app go away, kindle users may not opt to buy an ipad-the decision has become harder for them to justify.  And they may well wait for the kindle "tablet" instead.  I have a large selection of BN ebooks.  I cannot see any reason to buy an ipad that doesn't at least have a nook app on it.

 

I agree.  If I ever did buy another iPad (I returned the first one I bought after using it for a month), I'd definitely want to be able to run the Nook and Kindle apps on it.  If Apple succeeds in pushing everyone else out of their ecosystem, that's much less reason for me to ever buy into it.

 

Plus, I don't like the attitude that it betrays.

 

- Mark