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Re: Book and e-book pricing
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08-23-2011 09:56 AM
If everyone is happy to let the publishers and eBook sellers combine to dictate prices good for them.
I thought we lived in a free market society and companies where free to set their own prices and we were allowed to place our vote about that price by buying or not buying. Guess I'm wrong.
Seems we like higher prices or we aren't willing to do anything about them. Shame on us. As for me, I WON'T buy any eBook for more than $9.99 (which is what we were told was going to be the standard price). I don't need to read the latest book that badly.
Just my opinion.
Re: Book and e-book pricing
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08-23-2011 10:19 AM
nlstein wrote:If everyone is happy to let the publishers and eBook sellers combine to dictate prices good for them.
I thought we lived in a free market society and companies where free to set their own prices and we were allowed to place our vote about that price by buying or not buying. Guess I'm wrong.
Seems we like higher prices or we aren't willing to do anything about them. Shame on us. As for me, I WON'T buy any eBook for more than $9.99 (which is what we were told was going to be the standard price). I don't need to read the latest book that badly.
Just my opinion.
Well, nobody told me that e-books were not supposed to cost more than $9.99 ever. And, please don't speak for all of us. I buy anything for what I think it's worth to me at the time I purchase it. If a book I want costs $20 and it's worth it to me, I'll buy it for $20. If it's not, I don't buy it. Simple. I, however, will not place an arbitrary price ceiling on an e-book. Nobody guaranteed me cheaper books if I bought them all in digital format.
I have bought books for mare than $9.99, I've also bought books for less. I buy what I want to read and what I can afford. I have a small book budget, so if I buy a $15 e-book that may be the only book I can buy for the next month or so. My choice. So, I just get library ebooks for a while, until I can afford to buy more e-books. I am perfectly happy with my choices.
There are lots of things I think people are crazy for spending so much money on. $200 cell phone? $100 jeans? Fancy jewelry? Who am I to jusdge what anyone else spwnds their money on. Obviously, those things are important to the people who buy them or they wouldn't spend the money on them.
Re: Book and e-book pricing
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08-23-2011 10:20 AM
nlstein wrote:If everyone is happy to let the publishers and eBook sellers combine to dictate prices good for them.
I thought we lived in a free market society and companies where free to set their own prices and we were allowed to place our vote about that price by buying or not buying. Guess I'm wrong.
Seems we like higher prices or we aren't willing to do anything about them. Shame on us. As for me, I WON'T buy any eBook for more than $9.99 (which is what we were told was going to be the standard price). I don't need to read the latest book that badly.
Just my opinion.
Well it never would have happened if Apple hadn't made this deal with the devil and you're the one who is so in love with Apple, it is rather hypocritical.
Re: Book and e-book pricing
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08-23-2011 10:23 AM
B&N said eBooks would be $9.99 when they introduced the 1st Nook. Look back and you'll find it.
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08-23-2011 10:26 AM
nlstein wrote:B&N said eBooks would be $9.99 when they introduced the 1st Nook. Look back and you'll find it.
They never said all e-books would always be $9.99. There were always e-books that cost more than $9.99, even before the Agency model went into effect.
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08-23-2011 10:26 AM
Read my posts. I have said MANY times that I don't agree with everything Apple does and I certainly DON'T like what they did when it comes to eBooks. Please don't put words in my mouth - that's my job.
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08-23-2011 10:28 AM
nlstein wrote:B&N said eBooks would be $9.99 when they introduced the 1st Nook. Look back and you'll find it.
Actually B&N and Amazon both said most newly released NY Times bestsellers would be $9.99.
Neither said that all books would be $9.99.
Neither said the the NY Times bestsellers would remain $9.99 for any given length of time after release.
The $9.99 was a loss leader price, and the loss was to be made up by higher prices on books that were not on the NY Times bestseller list.
Re: Book and e-book pricing
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08-23-2011 10:29 AM - edited 08-23-2011 10:48 AM
I know Amazon said that ebooks would be $9.99 and B&N said "most ebooks $9.99 or less" (which is actually still true, if I remember a recent post by Doug where he broke down B&N's shop for us) but as far as I know, B&N never promised that they would remain that way.
[Edited: I would like to see some proof that B&N promised prices would never go up.]
Re: Book and e-book pricing
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08-23-2011 10:33 AM - edited 08-23-2011 10:36 AM
nlstein wrote:If everyone is happy to let the publishers and eBook sellers combine to dictate prices good for them.
I thought we lived in a free market society and companies where free to set their own prices and we were allowed to place our vote about that price by buying or not buying. Guess I'm wrong.
Seems we like higher prices or we aren't willing to do anything about them. Shame on us. As for me, I WON'T buy any eBook for more than $9.99 (which is what we were told was going to be the standard price). I don't need to read the latest book that badly.
Just my opinion.
Music CDs were supposed to cost less than vinyl, but in the end they did not. Ebooks are supposed to cost less than DTBs, but in the end they will not. Simply because people want them and will eventually pay what is asked for them.
Kind of like books: I remember grumbling when paperback books started costing more than three bucks. Now, a new paperback rarely (if ever) costs that. The rise in cost is due to a combination of rising costs and inflation (which drives rising costs).
If you were told that there would be a "standard cost" for ebooks, you were lied to, but more importantly you believed the lie. No one, repeat, no one can declare that something will have a standard cost. Particularlly in a free market.
One of the downsides of a "free market society" is that prices always rise. Only in a "closed market society" (I could use the name thought evil) do prices occur at a standard price. And even there prices always rise, but there is the newly published standard.
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08-23-2011 10:46 AM
I repeat, B&N told everyone in their ads that eBooks would be $9.99! Was I lied to, maybe nut I don't think so. At the time they thought that would be the price. It was before Apple got involved. Don't you think telling me "more importantly you believed the lie" is a little harsh? Do you have lie radar? I don't.
More honey, less vinegar.
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08-23-2011 11:25 AM - edited 08-23-2011 11:31 AM
Ya_Ya wrote:I know Amazon said that ebooks would be $9.99 and B&N said "most ebooks $9.99 or less" (which is actually still true, if I remember a recent post by Doug where he broke down B&N's shop for us) but as far as I know, B&N never promised that they would remain that way.
[Edited: I would like to see some proof that B&N promised prices would never go up.]
Amazon's exact sales pitch was "New York Times® Best Sellers and New Releases are $9.99, unless marked otherwise," if you scroll down this archive from December 17, 2007, you will see that. Neither Amazon nor B & N ever promised all books would be $9.99 or less. I've browsed Amazon's boards and it appears the first $9.99 boycott thread posted over a year before the Agency agreement began. Clearly, there were a lot of books more expensive than $9.99...when books fell off the NYT list, the price often increased, hence the complaint thread.
A similar sales pitch from B&N from 11/15/2009:
http://web.archive.org/web/20091115112245/http://w
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08-23-2011 11:39 AM
nlstein wrote:I repeat, B&N told everyone in their ads that eBooks would be $9.99! Was I lied to, maybe nut I don't think so. At the time they thought that would be the price. It was before Apple got involved. Don't you think telling me "more importantly you believed the lie" is a little harsh? Do you have lie radar? I don't.
More honey, less vinegar.
Yes, it WAS before Apple got involved. That's kind of the important point. The deal that Apple struck with the publishers was that the publishers got to set the price, Apple got 30% of whatever the ebook sold for, and the ebook could not be sold anywhere else for less than the selling price in the ibookstore. Because of this last stipulation, in order to sell ebooks through Apple, the pubs HAD to renegotiate their contracts with all of the other vendors and they HAD to control the pricing. Thus the Agency model.
B&N didn't lie to you. They told the truth as they knew it. They didn't know Apple was going to screw them (though they should have, Apple screws everyone in the end).
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08-23-2011 11:39 AM
So even Amazon didn't promise no ebooks over $9.99. ![]()
And nobody promised a static pricepoint.
Thanks, Tim. ![]()
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08-23-2011 11:46 AM
So a more fundamental question is are these publishers price fixing. Apparently I am not the only one to questiion this. See the following:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/aug/11/apple-
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08-23-2011 11:53 AM
Ya_Ya wrote:So even Amazon didn't promise no ebooks over $9.99.
And nobody promised a static pricepoint.
Thanks, Tim.
Very welcome! There's also little doubt why five (later six) different publishers adopted the Agency agreement:
"Jobs, circling the room, stopped at one of several tables piled with iPads to talk with Walt Mossberg, the Wall Street Journal’s personal-technology columnist. Onstage, Jobs, demonstrating how Apple would sell books, had selected Edward Kennedy’s “True Compass” and clicked on a “buy” icon with the price $14.99 next to it. Why, Mossberg asked, should consumers “pay Apple $14.99 when they can buy the same book from Amazon for $9.99?”
“That won’t be the case,” Jobs said, seeming implacably confident. “The price will be the same.” Mossberg asked him to explain. Why would Amazon increase prices, when consumers were buying so many books? “Publishers may withhold their books from Amazon,” Jobs said. “They’re unhappy.” The "stick" to be used against wary publishers was the promise of exclusion from the new iBooks platform if they didn't agree to adopt the Agency agreement.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/04/26/1004
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08-23-2011 12:09 PM
To answer the part of the original question about how authors are compensated:
I'll give a usual path example. Please note that there is plenty of variation. Usually, nowadays, a new author needs representation to sell a book. Established authors like Stephen King don't, but most authors going to traditional publishing route have an agent. The agent then sells the book to the publisher and the author gets an advance. Advances range from $500 to $750,000 (or more, but the high end is extremely rare and usually for the famous (think Snooki) or the multi-book deal), but the important thing to know here is that the author has to earn out their advance before they get any royalties from the book sales. It is not uncommon for an author to fail to earn out their advance, but as an author you want to, it will make it much easier to sell future books. Keep in mind that 10-20% of everything the author earns goes to the agent.
The agent also negotiates the contract with the publisher for how the royalties will be paid, but most authors end up with the industry-standard terms of just about $1 per book, less for paperbacks and less for ebooks (keep that in mind when you think about the unfairness of ebook pricing). So in order to make $50,0000 a year, with an agent taking 20%, an author would need to sell 62,500 copies of their books in hardcover only (more copies would need to be sold if some where ebook or PB.)
FYI - if an author fails to earn out their advance, the publishers often will drop the author. This is part of the reason torrents are such a big deal - they hurt the publisher, but they can ruin an author.
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Re: Book and e-book pricing
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08-23-2011 12:19 PM
keriflur
Thanks for saying "B&N didn't lie to you. They told the truth as they knew it. They didn't know Apple was going to screw them (though they should have, Apple screws everyone in the end)."
The point here is that everyone was led to believe (both from Amazon and later and more strongly from B&N) that eBooks would be $9.99 (whether it was "most" or "all" is unimportant here) and NEVER was it indicated that these companies were not in charge of their own pricing. EBook pricing was one of the enticements used by both companies to sell their product.
Than Apple came in and gave the publishers just what they wanted - a way out of their deals with Amazon and B&N and everyone else. After all, you don't want to piss off Apple (even after they said the eBooks will not sell since no one reads).
Now the lemmings (the buyers of eBooks) are happy to go along with what just might be collusion (there is a lawsuit pending and remember, Apple doesn't win every lawsuit). Let's see how this all shakes out.
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08-23-2011 12:35 PM
nlstein wrote:keriflur
Thanks for saying "B&N didn't lie to you. They told the truth as they knew it. They didn't know Apple was going to screw them (though they should have, Apple screws everyone in the end)."
The point here is that everyone was led to believe (both from Amazon and later and more strongly from B&N) that eBooks would be $9.99 (whether it was "most" or "all" is unimportant here) and NEVER was it indicated that these companies were not in charge of their own pricing. EBook pricing was one of the enticements used by both companies to sell their product.
Than Apple came in and gave the publishers just what they wanted - a way out of their deals with Amazon and B&N and everyone else. After all, you don't want to piss off Apple (even after they said the eBooks will not sell since no one reads).
Now the lemmings (the buyers of eBooks) are happy to go along with what just might be collusion (there is a lawsuit pending and remember, Apple doesn't win every lawsuit). Let's see how this all shakes out.
Lawsuits plural.
How many more will there be? Although Apple has plenty of lawyers, will the publishers break ranks and decide to settle? Yes, it will be interesting to see how it "shakes out."
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08-23-2011 12:38 PM
I sometimes wonder why people continue to buy goods and services from companies whose business practices they so strongly disapprove of.
I don't like the way Walmart circumvented the EPA in the 90s and 20 years later I still don't shop there unless I have absolutely no other option. (Say I'm stuck in some podunk place where they ran all of the competition off years ago.)
I very rarely purchase anything from Amazon, although never is too strong a word.
I won't buy another Apple product, in spite of having an 11 year old emac and both a 1G and 2G iPod, after some of their recent choices - not the Agency ebook business, but their initial ridiculous assertions about what must not be part of other booksellers apps on their platform, and that they backed down means less than a hill of beans to me.
Do I honestly think my refusal to shop at any of the above three affects the way they will do business in the future? Nope, but at least I'm not sending money to Voldemort, Darth Vader or funding the Cylon army.
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08-23-2011 12:42 PM
nlstein wrote:keriflur
Thanks for saying "B&N didn't lie to you. They told the truth as they knew it. They didn't know Apple was going to screw them (though they should have, Apple screws everyone in the end)."
The point here is that everyone was led to believe (both from Amazon and later and more strongly from B&N) that eBooks would be $9.99 (whether it was "most" or "all" is unimportant here) and NEVER was it indicated that these companies were not in charge of their own pricing. EBook pricing was one of the enticements used by both companies to sell their product.
Than Apple came in and gave the publishers just what they wanted - a way out of their deals with Amazon and B&N and everyone else. After all, you don't want to piss off Apple (even after they said the eBooks will not sell since no one reads).
Now the lemmings (the buyers of eBooks) are happy to go along with what just might be collusion (there is a lawsuit pending and remember, Apple doesn't win every lawsuit). Let's see how this all shakes out.
B&N and Amazon never indiciated that they weren't in charge of their own pricing because at the time they were in charge. That's one of the things that Apple convinced the publishers to change.
As far as ebook buyers being lemmings, I don't think that's the case at all. People are buying what they want and paying what they think a book is worth to them - just not what you think the book is worth to them. People vote with their wallets whether they realize they're doing it or not. 18 months ago (or so) when the Agency model went into effect I was one of the people refusing to buy ebooks for more than $9.99, and for the most part I still don't. I won't pay more for an ebook than I could for a hardcover. but part of living in a free country means I have to respect that others might choose to shop differently, based on what they want or how they feel. That doesn't make them lemmings.
Regarding the collusion lawsuit, my understanding is that unless a whistleblower comes forward and tells us what happened behind closed doors, no one will ever be able to prove collusion. The official story is that Apple went to each publisher with the same deal and they each accepted it separately - the publishers did not get together and decide to take Apple's deal as a group, and they didn't mastermind the model (that was Jobs). So while Jobs bent the law, he didn't break it.
FWIW - I managed to talk about Apple and use the word "lemmings" in the same post without saying anything really nasty. I think that's a first for me. ![]()
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