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Correspondent
Scott-Michael
Posts: 55
Registered: ‎02-24-2012
0 Kudos

Re: Book and e-book pricing

Just noticed that Doug has links to posts he created with steps on how to violate the Copyright Act [and DMCA].

Doug, your opinion is that copying an e-book is a violation of DMCA, "What "copyright" is about is the right to make copies. Breaking e-book DRM requires making a copy, and it's still covered under the DMCA."

Doug says, "To share B&N e-books, just copy them your from one NOOK to the other."

3 Steps to Copyright Infringement, by Doug Pardee

1. Doug purchases an e-book from bn.com [copy 1]
2. Doug copies the e-book from his Nook to his laptop [copy 2]
3. Doug copies the e-book from his laptop to his mothers Nook [copy 3]

Some people settle for less...
Frequent Contributor
ellsbells930
Posts: 169
Registered: ‎09-03-2010

Re: Book and e-book pricing

[ Edited ]

Barnes & Noble has said this is fine.  It was in many posts when the first edition came out.   It doesn't actually break the DRM.  You still have to put in the credit card that was used to purchase the book in order to open it.

Bibliophile
bklvr896
Posts: 4,812
Registered: ‎12-31-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Book and e-book pricing

[ Edited ]

ellsbells930 wrote:

Barnes & Noble has said this is fine.  It was in many posts when the first edition came out.   It doesn't actually break the DRM.  You still have to put in the credit card that was used to purchase the book in order to open it.


B&N doesn't have the authority to say this is fine, they don't own the copyright on the books.  The fact that B&N social DRM allows you to do this doesn't necessarily make it ok.  If you read the copyright on most books it says you are granted the non-exclusive, non transferable right to access and read the text.

 

And I don't recall BN ever saying it was ok, users figured out how to do and shared it, but none of those posts were official posts and I'm pretty sure it's not in the user guide anywhere.

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,711
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Book and e-book pricing


bklvr896 wrote:

ellsbells930 wrote:

Barnes & Noble has said this is fine.  It was in many posts when the first edition came out.   It doesn't actually break the DRM.  You still have to put in the credit card that was used to purchase the book in order to open it.


B&N doesn't have the authority to say this is fine, they don't own the copyright on the books.  The fact that B&N social DRM allows you to do this doesn't necessarily make it ok.  If you read the copyright on most books it says you are granted the non-exclusive, non transferable right to access and read the text.

 

And I don't recall BN ever saying it was ok, users figured out how to do and shared it, but none of those posts were official posts and I'm pretty sure it's not in the user guide anywhere.


By agreeing to sell using the DRM scheme, the publishers (the copyright holders) are effectively saying this is acceptable.

Distinguished Bibliophile
RHWright
Posts: 1,619
Registered: ‎10-21-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Book and e-book pricing


keriflur wrote:

bklvr896 wrote:

ellsbells930 wrote:

Barnes & Noble has said this is fine.  It was in many posts when the first edition came out.   It doesn't actually break the DRM.  You still have to put in the credit card that was used to purchase the book in order to open it.


B&N doesn't have the authority to say this is fine, they don't own the copyright on the books.  The fact that B&N social DRM allows you to do this doesn't necessarily make it ok.  If you read the copyright on most books it says you are granted the non-exclusive, non transferable right to access and read the text.

 

And I don't recall BN ever saying it was ok, users figured out how to do and shared it, but none of those posts were official posts and I'm pretty sure it's not in the user guide anywhere.


By agreeing to sell using the DRM scheme, the publishers (the copyright holders) are effectively saying this is acceptable.


Not sure I agree, @keriflur.

 

It's kind of like saying that since a car is made to go faster than the posted speed limit, that manufacturers are saying speeding is acceptable. Or that since you can run over and kill someone with a car, that the manufacturer is saying that vehicular homicide is acceptable.

 

Many products can be used in unintended or specifically prohibited ways. It doesn't mean the manufacturer agree it's acceptable to do so. They'll put exclusions in contracts, terms of service, or safety warnings. Or, sadly, assume you have some common sense. Simply because you can & do otherwise, doesn't mean they find it acceptable.

 

On the other hand, an ethical argument can be made for the type of book sharing under discussion. I doubt, based on observation, that most publishers would find the argument compelling or the practice acceptable.

 

They probably just don't see the ROI in provoking customers over the point.

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,711
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Book and e-book pricing


RHWright wrote:

keriflur wrote:

bklvr896 wrote:

ellsbells930 wrote:

Barnes & Noble has said this is fine.  It was in many posts when the first edition came out.   It doesn't actually break the DRM.  You still have to put in the credit card that was used to purchase the book in order to open it.


B&N doesn't have the authority to say this is fine, they don't own the copyright on the books.  The fact that B&N social DRM allows you to do this doesn't necessarily make it ok.  If you read the copyright on most books it says you are granted the non-exclusive, non transferable right to access and read the text.

 

And I don't recall BN ever saying it was ok, users figured out how to do and shared it, but none of those posts were official posts and I'm pretty sure it's not in the user guide anywhere.


By agreeing to sell using the DRM scheme, the publishers (the copyright holders) are effectively saying this is acceptable.


Not sure I agree, @keriflur.

 

It's kind of like saying that since a car is made to go faster than the posted speed limit, that manufacturers are saying speeding is acceptable. Or that since you can run over and kill someone with a car, that the manufacturer is saying that vehicular homicide is acceptable.

 

Many products can be used in unintended or specifically prohibited ways. It doesn't mean the manufacturer agree it's acceptable to do so. They'll put exclusions in contracts, terms of service, or safety warnings. Or, sadly, assume you have some common sense. Simply because you can & do otherwise, doesn't mean they find it acceptable.

 

On the other hand, an ethical argument can be made for the type of book sharing under discussion. I doubt, based on observation, that most publishers would find the argument compelling or the practice acceptable.

 

They probably just don't see the ROI in provoking customers over the point.


I don't see the car examples as being the same.  With those examples, you're talking about a manufacturer and a law, while the DRM statement I made is directly related to copyright, not product-maker or law.

 

The DRM is part of the sales agreement.  We know this as consumers because not all books are sold with DRM - the copyright holder gets to choose if they want to use DRM.  If the copyright holder did not feel the restrictions of the DRM satisfied them, they would not have to sell the product through that particular vendor.

 

It's more like if I lend you a book, I expect to get it back.  But I *know* that I might not.  If I still choose to lend you the book, I'm accepting that I might never see it again.  If I don't find that acceptable, I shouldn't be lending the book in the first place.

Bibliophile
bklvr896
Posts: 4,812
Registered: ‎12-31-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Book and e-book pricing


keriflur wrote:

RHWright wrote:

keriflur wrote:

bklvr896 wrote:

ellsbells930 wrote:

Barnes & Noble has said this is fine.  It was in many posts when the first edition came out.   It doesn't actually break the DRM.  You still have to put in the credit card that was used to purchase the book in order to open it.


B&N doesn't have the authority to say this is fine, they don't own the copyright on the books.  The fact that B&N social DRM allows you to do this doesn't necessarily make it ok.  If you read the copyright on most books it says you are granted the non-exclusive, non transferable right to access and read the text.

 

And I don't recall BN ever saying it was ok, users figured out how to do and shared it, but none of those posts were official posts and I'm pretty sure it's not in the user guide anywhere.


By agreeing to sell using the DRM scheme, the publishers (the copyright holders) are effectively saying this is acceptable.


Not sure I agree, @keriflur.

 

It's kind of like saying that since a car is made to go faster than the posted speed limit, that manufacturers are saying speeding is acceptable. Or that since you can run over and kill someone with a car, that the manufacturer is saying that vehicular homicide is acceptable.

 

Many products can be used in unintended or specifically prohibited ways. It doesn't mean the manufacturer agree it's acceptable to do so. They'll put exclusions in contracts, terms of service, or safety warnings. Or, sadly, assume you have some common sense. Simply because you can & do otherwise, doesn't mean they find it acceptable.

 

On the other hand, an ethical argument can be made for the type of book sharing under discussion. I doubt, based on observation, that most publishers would find the argument compelling or the practice acceptable.

 

They probably just don't see the ROI in provoking customers over the point.


I don't see the car examples as being the same.  With those examples, you're talking about a manufacturer and a law, while the DRM statement I made is directly related to copyright, not product-maker or law.

 

The DRM is part of the sales agreement.  We know this as consumers because not all books are sold with DRM - the copyright holder gets to choose if they want to use DRM.  If the copyright holder did not feel the restrictions of the DRM satisfied them, they would not have to sell the product through that particular vendor.

 

It's more like if I lend you a book, I expect to get it back.  But I *know* that I might not.  If I still choose to lend you the book, I'm accepting that I might never see it again.  If I don't find that acceptable, I shouldn't be lending the book in the first place.


Each eBook clearly states that it is nontransferable.  The number of people sharing books this way is probably miniscule compared to all the eBooks sold, since you're only likely to do this with close friends and family.   It wouldn't be worth the time and effort to try and go after folks about this.  But I don't think they are saying in any way, this is acceptable, they're just turning a blind eye for right now.