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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-15-2010 07:41 PM
sub_rosa wrote:However, if someone were to say to me - in one day, you will make $2.5 million on a book you wrote, but you'll lose $250,000 to pirates. My response would be, where do I sign up?
Amen to that.
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-16-2010 01:50 AM - edited 03-16-2010 01:53 AM
When I was a child my friends and I used to make mix tapes by recording songs off the radio. The music was freely played, so no one thought it was stealing. Then I got a little older and got a double cassette player, and we made mixes from that and shared them. No one thought that was stealing either. We'd paid for the original cassettes, right? Then CDs came out and we still used our cassettes to make mix tapes and copies. Again, it was lending and giving something we'd purchased, to friends and family. And still I never heard a fuss about it, not even in church, or from the nuns that ran my Catholic school. It wasn't until the ability to rip a song from a CD and put it online that someone cried foul. Then... it was stealing. But by the moral rules, the rules we're using in this forum to talk about theft, what we did when I was a kid would count as theft. But no one I knew, no one I talked to then, not even the moral compasses of my world at the time thought anything of sharing music. Just like we don't think anything of sharing books.
But back to the music. It was only a few years after I graduated college that a friend told me about napster. And I downloaded music like a maniac. But who did I listen to? Phish. DMB. Bands that supported show taping and tape trading. I downloaded so many live recordings of great shows that my hard drive filled up. But other people were downloading Metallica, and the band cried foul and the whole world stopped to think about the rights of the artist, morals, ethics and creative property. And we got itunes and DRM, and a whole host of problems for people who bought music legally. A lot of my friends still went to torrent sites, mainly because they got fed up with the hassles of DRM. I was a big chicken, so I kept buying CDs and ripping the songs myself. Then Amazon started selling DRM free music, and my world changed again. My CDs sit in storage and my entire library is digital. And when I love an artist, I support that artist, over and over again. I am not unique, or on a moral high ground. Everyone I spend time with feels the same way as I do about supporting artists.
And where are the music pirates today? Still pirating music, but no faster than before. DRM didn't slow them down, so a lack of DRM hasn't sped them up.
So, after all that, what did the publishing industry learn? Not a damn thing! What did we learn as consumers? I don't know about all of you, but I learned that people are better than I used to think. The music industry didn't crash because we stopped buying CDs, or because I can now make 5000 copies of Lady Gaga's latest album. Would the publishing industry crash if I could make 5000 copies of Twilight? No. Because ultimately most people want to give credit where credit is due, and want to make sure artists are compensated for their work. Most people are GOOD people. There it is. They'll still give copies of stuff they like to their families and friends, and yes, it will be a copy, not the original file they downloaded, but it won't really matter because they're not reading the same book, over and over, day in and day out. And some people will read an ebook, and then go and buy their own copy to make sure the author is compensated. And some will just buy the next book themselves. And the world will still go round, and life will continue as we know it.
A lack of DRM doesn't turn a good person into a money-grubbing thief, the desire to steal has to be there already. The music industry has already proven this - why can't the publishers learn from that?
Currently Reading: Dead Ever After
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-16-2010 07:13 AM
I am finding that I am buying more books (ebooks) than I have in the past. In fact I have had to place myself on a budget.
Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-16-2010 07:23 AM
Downloading a file from the internet, whether it's an eBook or music file, is not stealing in the traditional sense. Anyone who's studied law knows that stealing means assuming control over property with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of its possession and use. Downloading a file from the internet is making an illegal copy. Still wrong, no doubt. But it's not "stealing" as that term has been defined for centuries.
Don't buy from Random House, Macmillan, or Penguin until the agency model is COMPLETELY dead.
Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-16-2010 07:25 AM
So how does one steal an ebook? I go to publisher's site (B&N for example) and either download a free book or buy one. For there to be large scale theft the thieves would have to set up a site where people could download stolen books. These sites can be found and shut down.
It would seem that the other method is for individuals to share files, but how could this be done on anything but a deminimus level?
I guess I don't understand the mechanics or dynamics of stealing ebooks.
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03-16-2010 07:33 AM
That depends on how you're using the word "steal." (Or what the word "is" is...?)
To steal your eBook from you, I would have to go on your computer, take your copy, and make sure that's it's not there for you to enjoy anymore. To make an illegal copy of your copy, I could just drag and drop onto my jump drive, and run away with it. Look at it like money - if I steal your $10 dollar bill, then you don't have it. If I take your $10 dollar bill and photocopy it and put it back, then you still have it. I've only made an illegal copy of your money - you can still buy something with it.
The real problem is taking a copy of an eBook file, removing the DRM, putting it on a server, and announcing to the world that it's there so thousands of people can freely download it. That's illegally distributing copies - not stealing. Still wrong, of course. You'd think that kind of thing would be easy for a vigilant copyright owner to stop.
Don't buy from Random House, Macmillan, or Penguin until the agency model is COMPLETELY dead.
Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-16-2010 08:13 AM
That's kind of my point. The real peoblem is the large download sites, not the odd single person technique. So the real solution is to shut down the large sites and those can be found. The other thing is they have the ability to strip out the DRM.
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03-16-2010 09:42 AM
Steal: To take without the owner's consent; "Someone stole my wallet on the train"; "This author stole entire paragraphs from my dissertation"
There is physical theft, and there is theft of services, and theft of intellectual property.
When you make an illegal copy of a copyrighted digital file and then make use of it. You have stolen the money that the copyright holder is entitled to for the use of his work.
Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-16-2010 11:51 AM
The ability to remove the DRM isn't going to go away - if it can be put on, it can be taken off.
That said, the music industry did a very good job of shutting down torrent sites back in the orginal napster days, and they went after the major players (and quite a few minor ones). Now everyone knows that if you download from a torrent site your downloads can be tracked. The publishing industry needs to go after these sites rather than sitting back and crying foul.
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-17-2010 10:07 AM
Like most laws on the books, the copywrite laws were written during a time when eBooks and the internet were lodged in someone's imagination. Technology has been growing at light speed, while everything else stays the same. I also grew up taping songs that I heard on the radio, 'dubbing' from tape to tape the ones that my sister bought that I liked. I didn't even think twice.
Now, getting to the eBooks.... I truly believe that if the prices were lower, the piracy would be less. I have purchased more books since I have bought my nook, books that I would not have bought except that the price was right, it was recommended by others that have read books that I have read and liked and was available in eBook.
But something is bothering me. I have noticed that some newly released eBooks are higher in price than they were a few months ago. Could this be because more are buying in that form and not in DTB form, which was more expensive (and of course, cost more to produce) so to recoup their losses they are raises the prices of the eBooks? Not that it makes piracy of books justifiable, but I can understand!
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03-17-2010 04:14 PM
Again, no one seems to notice binary newsgroups, an enormous source of various sorts of intellectual piracy. That's writing, software, audio, video, anything reducible to digital form. For some reason peer-to-peer sharing gets most of the attention.
I'd say the danger to writers is overrated. I've downloaded a few pirate texts in my time. The major effect has been to get me to buy books by writers with whom I had not been acquainted before. Or for instance discovering that as much as I had been disappointed with Orson Scott Card's third and fourth Ender novels, the sidequel Bean/Shadow series, which I'd been avoiding, was just as good as his best writing.
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03-17-2010 04:58 PM
AlanNJ wrote:J.K. Rowling has a "desire to see readers experience her books in print? If not for fear of privacy, why? You use just as many reading skills and imagination using an e-reader as with a paper book.
Why can't these authors just say what they mean?
Sorry if someone already responded, but I thought I would a thought!
When I was talking to a friend about the Nook, she pointed out that one of the reasons she sticks to printed books was so that her kids could see her reading (books specifically) and follow her example. Her thought being that if her kids saw her reading on a technical device then they wouldn't learn to love books.
While there's abviously ways to teach kids to love books while still enjoying an ereader, it pointed out a line of thought that I had not considered. I think it's important for kids to learn to appreciate reading on books first before using any type of digitalized book, and I think there's certain authors (like J.K. Rowling) who share that line of thought.
I know that this thought process is a bit out there on an ereader board, but I thought it would help.
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03-17-2010 05:15 PM
BeckyAK wrote:
When I was talking to a friend about the Nook, she pointed out that one of the reasons she sticks to printed books was so that her kids could see her reading (books specifically) and follow her example. Her thought being that if her kids saw her reading on a technical device then they wouldn't learn to love books.
If the idea is to each the love of books, then by all means use only books.
If the idea is to teach the love of READING, then read anything, any way, any device.
Kids today will be attracted far more to the digital device than the books.
Game-boys = fun. Board games = yawn.
Its not 1968 any more. Use the medium that works.
Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-17-2010 06:01 PM
There is no "enjoyment" in turning a page. Is there enjoyment in borrowing a library book and finding a previous borrower's chocolate stain on a page? The enjoyment is in the act of reading. The medium is less important than people believe.
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03-17-2010 07:03 PM
Not to mention they have all been released in audo book form, and at a pretty penny too!
My youngest daughter is dyslexic, "regular" words are hard enough and we all know the HP series is full of "irregular" words.
How about the kids (or adults really) with really awful vision, legally blind but can still see and they could read it if they could format the print large enough.
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03-17-2010 07:23 PM
FrogAlum wrote:My youngest daughter is dyslexic, "regular" words are hard enough and we all know the HP series is full of "irregular" words.
How about the kids (or adults really) with really awful vision, legally blind but can still see and they could read it if they could format the print large enough.
This is exactly why both of my kids have Kindles. It is the ability for the ereader to increase the size of text. Both of my kids are dyslexic and it helps immensely. Plus, with the eink, they can use the colored overlays as well.
Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-17-2010 07:37 PM - edited 03-17-2010 07:38 PM
Alley415 wrote:
FrogAlum wrote:My youngest daughter is dyslexic, "regular" words are hard enough and we all know the HP series is full of "irregular" words.
How about the kids (or adults really) with really awful vision, legally blind but can still see and they could read it if they could format the print large enough.
This is exactly why both of my kids have Kindles. It is the ability for the ereader to increase the size of text. Both of my kids are dyslexic and it helps immensely. Plus, with the eink, they can use the colored overlays as well.
But yet it's not a "book" so JK doesn't think they should read her books, it just makes me ill.
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03-23-2010 09:29 AM
sub_rosa wrote:That depends on how you're using the word "steal." (Or what the word "is" is...?)
To steal your eBook from you, I would have to go on your computer, take your copy, and make sure that's it's not there for you to enjoy anymore. To make an illegal copy of your copy, I could just drag and drop onto my jump drive, and run away with it. Look at it like money - if I steal your $10 dollar bill, then you don't have it. If I take your $10 dollar bill and photocopy it and put it back, then you still have it. I've only made an illegal copy of your money - you can still buy something with it.
The real problem is taking a copy of an eBook file, removing the DRM, putting it on a server, and announcing to the world that it's there so thousands of people can freely download it. That's illegally distributing copies - not stealing. Still wrong, of course. You'd think that kind of thing would be easy for a vigilant copyright owner to stop.
The problem with your last statement is that the vastness of the internet makes this virtually impossible. It would be more than a fulltime job. And the idea that it's not stealing is merely a justification some use to explain away an ethical as well as legally sticky issue. It is stealing, but not in the conventional sense. I don't need a lawyer to tell me that taking what is not mine is exactly that. That it is not codified as straight up stealing doesn't change the fact. People say it's not stealing so they can convince themselves they aren't doing anything wrong.
And, a person isn't "stealing" from a purchaser, but from the owner of the copyright. Of course in the traditional sense you have not taken something away, but in reality you have. By not legally purchasing a digital item, you have taken away the money that should have gone to the copyright owner. To make illegal copies of ebooks and distribute them whether for free or for some money or to download them from a website or other such copying is copyright infringement. But, in the digital world there are other laws than just the standard old copyright laws that apply that criminalize such copying. It makes such copying in effect theft.
Many of us cringe at DRM, but I think the reason it exists today is not because it can't be circumvented, but because that circumvention is an obvious (at least to the powers that be) attempt to pirate and break copyright law. What applies here especially in the case of DRMed material is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act which is part of copyright law that specifically criminalizes (rather than a copyright holder's only recourse being to sue for damages) acts involving the creation and distribution of items that break DRM. But, it also points out exemptions where the DRM may make a product basically unusable. There's also the NET Act which applies.
All that being said, I am for the expansion of fair use and really get rankled by authors such as JK Rowling that think ebooks aren't real books. But to change all of this and such ideas takes time. Not too long ago people had a very hard time thinking that anyone would want to read a newspaper on a computer, but papers were slow to react to the tipping point when people decided it was ok. Once upon a time, authors also used to think words weren't real unless written by hand or by typewriter. Even now, one can dictate the words and have speech recognition software jot it down. And for those with a financial and intellectual interest in the ebook product, fair use must be thought out carefully so that their rights are protected.
Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-23-2010 09:47 AM
I think we are in agreement on everything. You juist want to use the word "stealing" to describe the act of making an illegal copy. That's OK - lots of people do it.
Way back when VCR's first became popular, the TV stations hyperventilated over the thought of people recording their precious copyrighted shows with their awful thieving VCRs. They sued - and lost. That's just one example of an entrenched industry not responding well to the advances of technology.
Now, as I have said over and over again - making an illegal copy is wrong. Nobody should do it.
With that in mind, DRM doesn't stop thieves. It's hassles legitimate owners - you know, the people who are doing the right thing. Once I purchase an eBook I should have exclusive control over MY copy of the book. If I want to load it on any number of my eReaders, I should be able to - if I want to sell it to my friend, I should be able to - if I want to loan it unlimited number of times to my friends, I should be able to - if I want to donate it to the library I should be able to.
As it stands, I don't OWN any of these DRM'd eBooks because I don't have exclusive control over my COPY - the one I bought.
Don't buy from Random House, Macmillan, or Penguin until the agency model is COMPLETELY dead.
Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article
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03-23-2010 01:49 PM
Hehe...welcome back. ![]()