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eDigest
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

 

sub_rosa wrote:
Once I purchase an eBook I should have exclusive control over MY copy of the book.  If I want to load it on any number of my eReaders, I should be able to - if I want to sell it to my friend, I should be able to - if I want to loan it unlimited number of times to my friends, I should be able to - if I want to donate it to the library I should be able to.

 

 

Just for my own curiosity, why should you be able to do these things?

 

Is it only because you bought it or is there some other legal or moral concept behind it?  I only ask because this is a common theme amongst the anti-DRM folks. 

 

One other thought about this.  It would be nice to sell a "used" ebook, or give it away, etc.  But do you get to retain the original -- your copy?  If not, would it not involve DRM to prevent your or I from giving away unlimited copies while retaining my original copy?  So doesn't that sortof obviate the anti-DRM aspect of that argument.

 

(Just asking.  Hatchet is still buried.  :smileysurprised:)

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deemure
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

 

AlanNJ wrote:

According to the article it sounds like Ms. Rowling is more concerned with the changing technology than the theft problem.  She wants to maintain the act of turning a page to read.  Personally I can't comprehend this logic and think that Ms. Rowling is being extremely condescending and, quite honestly, overly impressed with herself and her influence.

 

But you also have to remember she wrote them by hand if what she said is true.  Some on napkins.  There is a real faction out there that thinks digital books are somehow not books.

 

"I still believe in spite of everything that people are good at heart." Anne Frank.
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deemure
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

[ Edited ]

And I also think that it's unfortunate that they always point out the millionaire authors as having losses.  Most authors never achieve that status and yet suffer from piracy much more than someone like Dan Brown.

 

I personally have a copyrighted product that I recently found being sold in Asia on a website.  Now, I'm not saying that everyone in Asia would be jumping to buy what I've written, but it makes me wonder who might be.

 

 

"I still believe in spite of everything that people are good at heart." Anne Frank.
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eDigest
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

 

deemure wrote:

I personally have a copyrighted product that I recently found being sold in Asia on a website.  Now, I'm not saying that everyone in Asia would be jumping to buy what I've written, but it makes me wonder who might be.

 

 

A little off topic, but I recently read that 60% of PCs in China run Windows 98 because it is widely available as a pirated OS. 

 

That is a pretty big market and obviously copyright and intellectual properly rights have little meaning there.

 

Also, DVDs of bootleged movies are rampant in China and elsewhere in Asia.  It is just a matter of time before ebooks follow.

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sub_rosa
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

I should be able to exercise exclusive control over the copy of the eBook that I have purchased because that is the nature of ownership.  It applies to all the junk that I buy - from golf balls to toilet plungers.  If I can't loan it, give it away, use it as it was intended to be used - then I don't own it.  The "exclusive control" model has worked for centuries with books - they get loaned, donated, given away, etc.

 

I don't think I should be able to retain a copy if I loan my copy or give it away.  Otherwise, I've made an illegal copy.  The only legal copy I should be able to make is a backup.  If I backup my hard drive, I've made a copy of my eBook.  Once I've disposed of my copy by lending or giving it away, then I should delete all copies that I have made.  It's only fair.

 

(Glad the hatchet is buried.  I like it a lot better when we're not sniping at each other!)


Don't buy from Random House, Macmillan, or Penguin until the agency model is COMPLETELY dead.
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eDigest
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

This is just a bit old, but with all the login problems thought I would add one more thought to this stream.

 

I agree that being able to sell, give away, lend, etc, is a valid desire.  Personally, I buy very few HBs and those DTBs I do buy, I intend to keep for a long while.  But being able to dispose of an old book in a useful way is a good thing.

 

That said, I don't understand this argument vis-a-vis DRM.

 

Everyone knows the limitations of digital format.  So a more a campaign more appropriate than doing away with DRM would be to get the lending capability fixed.  Unlimited lending is not completely unreasonable, and at the very least a higher level than 'once ever' should certainly be explored.  Also, the lending capability could easily be modified to include giving away (or selling).

 

For those who argue for getting rid of DRM, I think they should also account for the ability to make unlimited copies to sell, give away, lend, etc, and offer a solution for that with any call for getting rid of DRM.

 

The other thing I completely fail to understand is the argument that the price should reflect whether an ebook as DRM.  e.g., "I won't pay more than $X for a DRMed ebook."  I just don't get it, unless the ability to take the book to the used-book store is a major factor in the decision to buy a book.

 

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desert_mike
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

Theft of any kind is wrong.  IP theft is something that we will be dealing with for a long time.  Those things being said (ad nauseum), there are publishers that are coming to grips with it.

 

Just go to www.baen.com and check out their Free eBooks.  They use them as a marketing tool.  Yes, I know that it is "only" science fiction, but have you noticed how that genre has exploded lately?  Each author puts one or more of their books on the free list.  Many of them report that their DTB sales have jumped significantly right afterwards - confirming that free things have always been popular. 

 

Telling your friend 'You just gotta read this book!", then lending them your copy just might lead them to get more of the same in the more IPAA-accepted way.  Book addicts, after all, respond to word-of-mouth.  Jim Baen, the late publisher, has an interesting editorial on our present topic, also.

 

Buying an eBook and giving the file to someone else is no different than borrowing the book from the library and returning it so someone else can read it.  I keep a few books because They affected me in some way, but have passed on my DTB's for years.  I have deleted eBooks after reading them in the same manner.

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eDigest
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

desert_mike wrote:

Jim Baen, the late publisher, has an interesting editorial on our present topic, also.

Do share. (Link?)

desert_mike wrote:

Buying an eBook and giving the file to someone else is no different than borrowing the book from the library and returning it so someone else can read it.

 

There is one difference. The library book returned to the library no longer sits on your bookshelf.

 

You can give away your ebook and still retain a copy in your ebookshelf.

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imno007
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

[ Edited ]

All this talk about lending... are we talking about the lending capabilities of the Nook here? Isn't there a time limit on how long it can be loaned? Can you loan it to more than one person at a time? So what if you still retain a copy? You've read it once or will soon and what more can you do with it? What more would you want to do with it? You'd have to loan out your Nook to someone else to let a third person read it. Or have I got it all wrong? Can you loan your ebooks to multiple people at once?

 

And all this rambling on about piracy. I'm certainly not condoning it, but just because book and music publishers go on and on about how much it's costing them, and therefore you, don't assume that you're getting gospel from them. They often use some very simplistic calcluations to arrive at their figures, most common being x-many illegal downloads = x-many purchases that would have been made if those people hadn't made their illegal downloads, and that's just ridiculous. A lot of assumption there. And if you take the time to do a little research, you'll even find a few professional studies done that credit piracy for often increasing sales, and quite a few private individuals who credit it for helping them sell more of whatever it is they're selling. Just one example, because it's on the top of my head, having just read it a couple days ago, this is a little blurb from the producers of a little independent film called "Ink":

 

 

No big studio picked up the film for theatrical and home distribution. Double Edge Films pitched the movie directly to independent cinemas and to the DVD, Blu-ray and online distribution by themselves. After the release it became the most downloaded movie in file sharing torrent sites, more accurately 400,000 times in a single week, and exposed the film to a large audience, leading to higher DVD and Blu-ray sales in return. The independent filmmakers wrote in their newsletter that they had "embraced the piracy" and are "happy Ink is getting unprecedented exposure."
NOT saying it's right, again, so don't anyone get all messianic on me.

 

 

Nallia
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

 

imno007 wrote:

All this talk about lending... are we talking about the lending capabilities of the Nook here? Isn't there a time limit on how long it can be loaned? Can you loan it to more than one person at a time? So what if you still retain a copy? You've read it once or will soon and what more can you do with it? What more would you want to do with it? You'd have to loan out your Nook to someone else to let a third person read it. Or have I got it all wrong? Can you loan your ebooks to multiple people at once?

 

 

 

Yes, we are talking about the lending capabilities of the nook.  You cannot access your ebook while it is lent to someone.  It will be gone for 14 days before coming back to you.  You can only lend an ebook (that is lendable) to one person, and can only lend it one time.  Once it comes back to you, you can never lend it to anyone else again.  All of which is the point.  If the lending feature allowed a book to be lent more than once, and if it allowed ownership of the DRMed file to be transferred to someone else (causing you to be unable to access it again), it would protect the interests of the copyright owners while respecting the rights of those who purchased the ebook by allowing it to actually be treated as a physical copy.

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imno007
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

[ Edited ]

Thanks, Nallia,  for clearing that up for me (I haven't actually got my Nook yet, I'm expecting it tomorrow). It seemed to me that some people were equating the loaning capability of the Nook to a form of piracy, and that just didn't make much sense to me.

 

 

Nallia
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

[ Edited ]

 

imno007 wrote:

Thanks, Nallia,  for clearing that up for me (I haven't actually got my Nook yet, I'm expecting it tomorrow). It seemed to me that some people were equating the loaning capability of the Nook to a form of piracy, and that just didn't make much sense to me.

 

 

 

No problem!  This discussion has gone all over the place.  It's not surprising that you would get that impression.  :smileyhappy:

 

Also, a lot of us may not explain things to the extent that we should.  Most of us posting have nooks or have experience with them, and sometimes we assume that everyone already knows what we're talking about.  We sometimes forget that these things (like the way lending works) may not be common knowledge to those reading.

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deemure
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

 

sub_rosa wrote:

I should be able to exercise exclusive control over the copy of the eBook that I have purchased because that is the nature of ownership.  It applies to all the junk that I buy - from golf balls to toilet plungers.  If I can't loan it, give it away, use it as it was intended to be used - then I don't own it. 

Actually I think in regard to digital "items" you don't own them.  You own a license to use them in a very specific way, with limitations imposed upon them that include usage by you alone, unless you have purchased another license.  You don't assume any ownership rights.  The only person or persons with exclusive control over an ebook is the copyright holder. 

 

Of course, I do believe if the dust is ever able to settle on ebooks there may be considerations on expansion of that usage.  But, right now I think it is more like software in a way.  You can, I believe, re-sell software that you bought on disk, provided you have removed all copies of it from your computer, but you can't re-sell any downloaded software you have on your computer even if you delete all other copies of it.

 

"I still believe in spite of everything that people are good at heart." Anne Frank.
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desert_mike
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

The link to Baen's blog is http://www.baen.com/library/.  He has also appeared on some radio broadcasts - NPR, I think.  Until his death last year, he was quite outspoken on this subject.  One of the other authors has taken up his position, so it will be lively for a while, at least.

 

The free library is also on the same site - enjoy.

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lorabele
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

Here's how I see it.  They advertise the Nook saying that nearly every book is $9.99 or less.  They also advertise that you can share books.

 

Then reality sets in.  The books skyrocket in price, and now it's common for the ebooks to cost more than paperbacks, especially for books that were printed years ago.

 

And sharing?  Well, there's fine print.  Most books that I've purchased can't be loaned at all.  Those that can be loaned can only be loaned one time for just 14 days.  So that Stephen King "Under the Dome" book that's 1100 pages?  Forget it - not many people can read that in two weeks.

 

If I purchase a hardcover or paperback, I can do what I want.  I can give it away, sell it, leave it in an airport for another fan, loan it out as many times as I'd like.  That's the way it's always been, and I don't see that any publisher or author died of starvation because of it.  Now suddenly if I'm able to loan an ebook the world is going to end?  The price of ebooks keeps going up and up, and that's supposed to be okay, too?

 

I haven't downloaded anything illegally, but I can't turn my nose down on anyone who has.  This is getting out of control quickly.  If I PURCHASED the book, I should be able to do what I want with it.  Period.  The greed of these publishers is going to push people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do, just like some music publishers have done. 

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crane2
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

The whole premise of DRM, video industry, & micro**bleep** is that ALL people are crooks/pirates & will be treated as such.  Each human is guilty of being a crook/pirate regardless of the actual fact & shall be condemed.

 

If every person is guilty of being a pirate/crook, then it should not be surprised when piracy exist.   If one is condemed unjustly without reason/trial then  one is not obligated to honor the restrictions.  The lies that lawyers claim "presumed innocent" before a trial; or is it the so-called humanitarians.

 

At least, B&N isn't following the Apple Way in lying that when one "buys" an iphone or ipad he owns it.  The buyer only pay big money to RENT the hardware as Apple will dictate what you can or cannot use on the iphone/ipad.

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Ainwena
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

Ok, so I am going to throw this out for a little fun:

Out of all the crimes that people could commit, the crime of stealing/copying a book to read might be interesting to debate.  Isn't literacy supposed to be an equalizer in a democratic society?

hehe   /ducking rotten vegetables

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aditya
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

[ Edited ]

 


AlanNJ wrote:

J.K. Rowling has a "desire to see readers experience her books in print?  If not for fear of privacy, why?  You use just as many reading skills and imagination using an e-reader as with a paper book.

Why can't these authors just say what they mean?


 

I don't think she's afraid of piracy. Just a luddite being her sweet luddite self :smileyvery-happy:. Heck, given how much I enjoy her books (and yes, I bought the hardcovers on release day because they really are quite handsome), I can forgive a bit of irrationalism, as ridiculous as it is. So ... muggle-like ... to insist on static paper eh? :smileywink: The irrationalism stems from assuming that the absence of legal HP ebooks necessarily implies an absence of ebooks altogether.

The cake is a lie.
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aditya
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

 


lorabele wrote: If I PURCHASED the book, I should be able to do what I want with it.  Period.  The greed of these publishers is going to push people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do, just like some music publishers have done. 

 

Bingo. And that's the whole point, right there. I agree 100%. I have no problem with DRM when it's for a rental (Netflix for example - it's a wonderful system and I see no reason why rented movies/books should be DRM free). But the moment you say that I'm PURCHASING a book or movie, I reserve the right to watch/read it anyway I want to (as long as I don't make copies and give them to someone else). The publisher should go mind his own business after the sale. Can you imagine if you bought some clothes and representatives from Calvin Klein followed you around to make sure you used it "the right way"? :smileytongue: Intrusive little buggers.

 

The cake is a lie.
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aditya
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Re: Digital piracy hits the e-book industry - CNN Article

[ Edited ]

 


eDigest wrote:

For those who argue for getting rid of DRM, I think they should also account for the ability to make unlimited copies to sell, give away, lend, etc, and offer a solution for that with any call for getting rid of DRM.

 


 

That's a valid point, in principle. The reality is that DRM (for purchases, not rentals) ONLY inconveniences (usually quite seriously) the people who play by the rules. No DRM has yet been devised that lasts more than a day before being "broken". So, the point is that DRM itself is a pathetic solution to the problem and is no better than the honor system (because breaking it a mouse-click away and it is my conscious choice not to do so that prevents illegal copying). Many (perhaps most but I wouldn't want to presume) of us who argue against DRM do so because it is a ridiculous non-solution to the problem that all too often lays undue burdens on the people who are not particularly techno-savvy (and that automatically imposes the heaviest burdens on [many] older readers). You can see this from the number of pleas for help on these boards related to DRM issues (books not opening, weird rituals needing to be followed for Adobe digital editions and so on).

___

edit: Sorry about the multiple posts. Forgot to collect the quotes and make one giant post of replies. I would do that now if I could delete posts but evidently I cannot. :smileysad:

The cake is a lie.