Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

[keriflur]

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Sleeplessbooks wrote:

Barnes & Noble's DRMs are set up to revoke access to paid material until your credit card number is updated. This applies to backups on the PC and on your nook. And it's a dumb hassle that no human should ever be subjected to.

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As far as I can tell, you're basing this belief on one situation that happened to, your mom, I think it was?  Not on wording in the ToS, or any other B&N documentation.  There are people, more than one, who have first-hand experience in using their nook without a valid card on file, who are telling you that they did NOT have this situation.  So, occum's razor, which explantion is the most likely?  That all these other people are wrong, or that your mother's situation was unique?

Some situations that could result in not being able to read a book that was "already on the nook" when a valid CC is not on file at B&N -

• The book is purchased and visible in the library, but is not actually downloaded to the device
• The book was downloaded to the device, but the file is no longer there because the device was reset (which deletes the entire library)

For backups on the PC, you are blatantly wrong.  Absolutely, positively wrong.  I'm sure you're steaming in your boots right now, but let me explain:

You cannot download a book from B&N w/o a valid CC on file.  So, say you have a valid CC on file and you buy book A and download it.  At the time of download, B&N's system creates a unique code from your credit card number and attaches it to the epub file.  That code is the key for unlocking the encryption on the file.  Period, end of story.  You do not, nor will you ever, need to connect to B&N to read this file.  You will need to have the CC number used when the file was downloaded, and you will need software that can unlock this type of DRM encryption (nook software can, but there are others also).  So, if you have a copy of the file downloaded from Nook for PC or NookStudy, and you have the appropriate software, you WILL BE ABLE to unlock the file.  B&N has no direct line to your file, though the ether.  It's just a file, with an encryption.

Also, if you sideload B&N books to your nook, B&N CANNOT revoke your access to them, because the only way to revoke your access is to remove the files, and they cannot remove or alter the files in your "My Documents" folder.

If you're extraordinarily paranoid that B&N will find a way to take away your books because you don't have a valid CC on file, you can always remove the DRM (illegal) and sideload the books to your device.

[shrapnel]

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keriflur wrote:

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You cannot download a book from B&N w/o a valid CC on file.  So, say you have a valid CC on file and you buy book A and download it.  At the time of download, B&N's system creates a unique code from your credit card number and attaches it to the epub file.  That code is the key for unlocking the encryption on the file.  Period, end of story.  You do not, nor will you ever, need to connect to B&N to read this file.  You will need to have the CC number used when the file was downloaded, and you will need software that can unlock this type of DRM encryption (nook software can, but there are others also).  So, if you have a copy of the file downloaded from Nook for PC or NookStudy, and you have the appropriate software, you WILL BE ABLE to unlock the file.  B&N has no direct line to your file, though the ether.  It's just a file, with an encryption.

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I can confirm Sleepless's experience.

1. Enter CC.

2. Purchase book.

3. Download book to Nook app on Nook Color.

4. Delete CC from online account.

5. Some time later, try to open book -> "Sorry, cannot open book at this time."

I'd actually be a lot less upset if it prompted me to "unlock" the downloaded book with my name & CC number or something. Something I could do without connecting to B&N so I don't have to worry about suddenly not having access to my books when I board a plane. How does the sharing workflow go? Connect both devices to a PC, copy the encrypted file from one device to the other, and then...? Add your CC to your friend's B&N account? How do you "share" your CC #?

I think the B&N got the DRM wrong here. I'm not willing to keep a CC on file, I just want to enter my info on demand at the time of purchase, get the book, and read it anytime on any of my Android devices. This is a solved problem in the music world (iTunes, Amazon MP3). Maybe in another 10 years...

[geertm]

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shrapnel wrote:

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keriflur wrote:

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You cannot download a book from B&N w/o a valid CC on file.  So, say you have a valid CC on file and you buy book A and download it.  At the time of download, B&N's system creates a unique code from your credit card number and attaches it to the epub file.  That code is the key for unlocking the encryption on the file.  Period, end of story.  You do not, nor will you ever, need to connect to B&N to read this file.  You will need to have the CC number used when the file was downloaded, and you will need software that can unlock this type of DRM encryption (nook software can, but there are others also).  So, if you have a copy of the file downloaded from Nook for PC or NookStudy, and you have the appropriate software, you WILL BE ABLE to unlock the file.  B&N has no direct line to your file, though the ether.  It's just a file, with an encryption.

---

I can confirm Sleepless's experience.

1. Enter CC.

2. Purchase book.

3. Download book to Nook app on Nook Color.

4. Delete CC from online account.

5. Some time later, try to open book -> "Sorry, cannot open book at this time."

I'd actually be a lot less upset if it prompted me to "unlock" the downloaded book with my name & CC number or something. Something I could do without connecting to B&N so I don't have to worry about suddenly not having access to my books when I board a plane. How does the sharing workflow go? Connect both devices to a PC, copy the encrypted file from one device to the other, and then...? Add your CC to your friend's B&N account? How do you "share" your CC #?

I think the B&N got the DRM wrong here. I'm not willing to keep a CC on file, I just want to enter my info on demand at the time of purchase, get the book, and read it anytime on any of my Android devices. This is a solved problem in the music world (iTunes, Amazon MP3). Maybe in another 10 years...

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I believe your unlock information is sync'd with your B&N account (except for the N1E) for books in your B&N library. That is why you never have to type in the unlock infromation on the NC, even when using it for the first time. So if you delete your credit card from your account, the unlock information from that credit card is also removed from the B&N library on your NC.

You should always make a backup of your books, as no ebook store can guarantee books will always be available for redownloading. If you sideload those backup copies to your NC, you should be able to read them just fine.

[keriflur]

shrapnel wrote:

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keriflur wrote:

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You cannot download a book from B&N w/o a valid CC on file.  So, say you have a valid CC on file and you buy book A and download it.  At the time of download, B&N's system creates a unique code from your credit card number and attaches it to the epub file.  That code is the key for unlocking the encryption on the file.  Period, end of story.  You do not, nor will you ever, need to connect to B&N to read this file.  You will need to have the CC number used when the file was downloaded, and you will need software that can unlock this type of DRM encryption (nook software can, but there are others also).  So, if you have a copy of the file downloaded from Nook for PC or NookStudy, and you have the appropriate software, you WILL BE ABLE to unlock the file.  B&N has no direct line to your file, though the ether.  It's just a file, with an encryption.

---

I can confirm Sleepless's experience.

1. Enter CC.

2. Purchase book.

3. Download book to Nook app on Nook Color.

4. Delete CC from online account.

5. Some time later, try to open book -> "Sorry, cannot open book at this time."

I'd actually be a lot less upset if it prompted me to "unlock" the downloaded book with my name & CC number or something. Something I could do without connecting to B&N so I don't have to worry about suddenly not having access to my books when I board a plane. How does the sharing workflow go? Connect both devices to a PC, copy the encrypted file from one device to the other, and then...? Add your CC to your friend's B&N account? How do you "share" your CC #?

I think the B&N got the DRM wrong here. I'm not willing to keep a CC on file, I just want to enter my info on demand at the time of purchase, get the book, and read it anytime on any of my Android devices. This is a solved problem in the music world (iTunes, Amazon MP3). Maybe in another 10 years...

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So, now we're talking about the NC?  In the N1E forum?

Um, maybe that's the problem here?  The people explaining how it all works are talking about the N1E, not the NC, as this is the N1E forum?

FWIW - the excerpt taken from me in the post above was specifically talking about downloading a file AS A BACKUP from either Nook for PC or NookStudy, and loading it onto an N1E (though an N2E would work also), or using another software that has the ability to unencrypt the social DRM.  (see original post above, from me, for more info).

In this post, you seem to be taking it as if I was talking about files downloaded to the device, which is not what I was saying at all.

[bklvr896]

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shrapnel wrote:

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keriflur wrote:

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You cannot download a book from B&N w/o a valid CC on file.  So, say you have a valid CC on file and you buy book A and download it.  At the time of download, B&N's system creates a unique code from your credit card number and attaches it to the epub file.  That code is the key for unlocking the encryption on the file.  Period, end of story.  You do not, nor will you ever, need to connect to B&N to read this file.  You will need to have the CC number used when the file was downloaded, and you will need software that can unlock this type of DRM encryption (nook software can, but there are others also).  So, if you have a copy of the file downloaded from Nook for PC or NookStudy, and you have the appropriate software, you WILL BE ABLE to unlock the file.  B&N has no direct line to your file, though the ether.  It's just a file, with an encryption.

---

I can confirm Sleepless's experience.

1. Enter CC.

2. Purchase book.

3. Download book to Nook app on Nook Color.

4. Delete CC from online account.

5. Some time later, try to open book -> "Sorry, cannot open book at this time."

I'd actually be a lot less upset if it prompted me to "unlock" the downloaded book with my name & CC number or something. Something I could do without connecting to B&N so I don't have to worry about suddenly not having access to my books when I board a plane. How does the sharing workflow go? Connect both devices to a PC, copy the encrypted file from one device to the other, and then...? Add your CC to your friend's B&N account? How do you "share" your CC #?

I think the B&N got the DRM wrong here. I'm not willing to keep a CC on file, I just want to enter my info on demand at the time of purchase, get the book, and read it anytime on any of my Android devices. This is a solved problem in the music world (iTunes, Amazon MP3). Maybe in another 10 years...

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So here's my question.  After you copied the book to your Nook, did you turn off the WiFi before attempting removing the cc and attempting to open the book? Because if WiFi was turned off before you removed the cc, then there's no way for the Nook to know that the credit card is gone.  It would have to "talk" to the website to know the card is gone.

[shrapnel]

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keriflur wrote:

So, now we're talking about the NC?  In the N1E forum?

Um, maybe that's the problem here?  The people explaining how it all works are talking about the N1E, not the NC, as this is the N1E forum?

FWIW - the excerpt taken from me in the post above was specifically talking about downloading a file AS A BACKUP from either Nook for PC or NookStudy, and loading it onto an N1E (though an N2E would work also), or using another software that has the ability to unencrypt the social DRM.  (see original post above, from me, for more info).

In this post, you seem to be taking it as if I was talking about files downloaded to the device, which is not what I was saying at all.

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Apologies; I came to the thread through Google and since the issue isn't N1E-specific, I didn't realize it was posted to an N1E-specific forum. My experience is primarily with the Nook Android app on several devices including a Nook Color.

In the text I quoted, I didn't realize that your term "download" specifically applied to desktop downloads, and that the download process and/or result varies depending on whether the book is downloaded on the N1E, N2E, NC, NT, Android app, or desktop apps. In my case, it sounds like I'd have better luck downloading the book on the desktop, clearing my CC info, and sideloading the file onto my portable devices rather than downloading the books through the mobile apps directly (thanks geertm). That isn't a flow I expected to follow when I began my Nook experience, and I doubt any amount of research would've turned up this drawback before I ran smack into it.

@bklvr896: No, I didn't try disabling wifi after downloading and before removing my CC info or opening the book. I could give that a shot.

[Sleeplessbooks]

Occam's Razor? Ok... let's give this a try here.

My mom suddenly had access to her books totally revoked because her credit card was no longer valid.  She called up Barnes and Noble to get help, and they told her that she could not regain access to those books until she supplied B&N with an updated credit card.

I'm not wrong. There's no scientific method that can be applied here to invalidate my findings. It is what it is. Deal with it.

So... Occam's Razor.  Where does this fit in, anyways? Because I don't see how that can be applied to this situation in any fashion whatsoever.  Ok... so let's do some further review. Why would Mom be unable to read her books?

Hypothesis #1:The book is purchased and visible in the library, but is not actually downloaded to the device

Problem #1: The books purchased were already on the nook beforehand. They suddenly stopped working. She had access to them prior to the incident, and suddenly found herself unable to access them -- because of a lack of credit card. That is the error message she received.

Hypothesis #2: The book was downloaded to the device, but the file is no longer there because the device was reset (which deletes the entire library)

Problem #2: The device was never reset.

"I'm sure you're steaming in your boots right now"

The only thing I'm really upset about is my inability to express an opinion without having people tell me that those feelings are invalid.

"You cannot download a book from B&N w/o a valid CC on file ... B&N has no direct line to your file, though the ether.  It's just a file, with an encryption."

"You cannot download a book from B&N w/o a valid CC on file.  So, say you have a valid CC on file and you buy book A and download it.  At the time of download, B&N's system creates a unique code from your credit card number and attaches it to the epub file.  That code is the key for unlocking the encryption on the file.  Period, end of story.  You do not, nor will you ever, need to connect to B&N to read this file"

Except when your nook checks up with B&N and sees that your credit card is no longer valid.  I know this seems like I'm grasping at straws here, but the problem at hand is that she had access to her books one moment, and didn't have access to them the next -- for the sole reason that she was being prompted for an updated credit card number.  It is common amongst digital purchases much like B&M for the device/software/whatever to periodically call home to the server to make sure that everything's in proper order.  In the early days of DRM, especially with video games, the calls home would happen every time you load the software in question.  I believe "Spore" by Electronics Arts was like this.  Evidence from personal experience suggests that Barnes & Noble does periodic checks, and revokes access to books from time to time.  A simple yet unfortunate solution to regain access to the books is to supply a credit card.

But I'm not getting anywhere, anyways. Because it seems like nobody else here shares my frustrations. Or notices the word "opinion" plastered all over my posts. My opinion doesn't count here, and it certainly doesn't count in company headquarters.  I'll quit monitoring this thread, now...

[frantastk]

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Sleeplessbooks wrote:

Except when your nook checks up with B&N and sees that your credit card is no longer valid.  I know this seems like I'm grasping at straws here, but the problem at hand is that she had access to her books one moment, and didn't have access to them the next -- for the sole reason that she was being prompted for an updated credit card number.  It is common amongst digital purchases much like B&M for the device/software/whatever to periodically call home to the server to make sure that everything's in proper order.  In the early days of DRM, especially with video games, the calls home would happen every time you load the software in question.  I believe "Spore" by Electronics Arts was like this.  Evidence from personal experience suggests that Barnes & Noble does periodic checks, and revokes access to books from time to time.  A simple yet unfortunate solution to regain access to the books is to supply a credit card.

But I'm not getting anywhere, anyways. Because it seems like nobody else here shares my frustrations. Or notices the word "opinion" plastered all over my posts. My opinion doesn't count here, and it certainly doesn't count in company headquarters.  I'll quit monitoring this thread, now...

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I understand your frustration. I think what some people are trying to say is that if you download all the books to your computer, your computer would have no need to "call home." So any books you downloaded to your computer would still work with the old credit card info. That has been my experience anyway. When my credit card expired there was a delay before I remembered to input the new info. Any books I had bought and sideloaded still worked with all the old info. I know that because I deregistered the old nook and sideloaded a whole bunch of books using the old credit card for my kids during this period.  If you keep wifi off on the nook, the books on the nook would also work since the nook can't phone home if there is no connection. I think most people probably keep wifi off (on the e-ink devices, anyway) to save power since wifi is only needed to shop and download books. 

I hope I'm not adding to your frustration. I'm just trying to explain that my experience has been completely different than yours. B&N has not disabled all the books on my computer and on my device with invalid credit card info. Had I tured wifi on, yes my nook would have synced and I would not have been able to read the books. Also if I had tried to download anything from my account at this time it wouldn't have worked, but all  my books were already downloaded to both my nook and my computer (not to mention a usb drive and an extra sd card and drop box).

[llinkabug]

Where do you go to put in your credit card info

[geertm]

@sleeplessbooks

You need to make a difference between books in the B&N partition that are sync'd with your B&N account, and books sideloaded to your ereader (or on your PC, backup, memorycard etc.).

The B&N books in the B&N partition are sync'd with your B&N account, and thus depend on you having a valid B&N account with a valid credit card.

If you download the books (for example using Nook for PC) and sideload them to your ereader, or save them anywhere else, the books are standalone files (protected with your credit card info) that are indendent from your B&N account.

I hope this make things clearer for you.

Edit: Always make a backup of your ebooks. There is no guarantee whatsoever that you will always be able to redownload books again from B&N's servers.

[keriflur]

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llinkabug wrote:

Where do you go to put in your credit card info

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If you mean, before you download a book, you can do that on the website.  Go to My Account --> Account Settings.

If you mean, you've downloaded or sideloaded a book to your nook and don't know where to enter the number to open the file - the nook will prompt you if it needs the number.  If it doesn't prompt you, there's no need to enter it. 

[Whatever81]

This is crazy. I am write a lot of security software and they don't need my credit card number for the security key. There is NO reason why they can't use the number from a B&N gift card.

As far as buying a prepaid visa just to use what i paid for is madness and I don't know why people even suggest that as an option. If anyone thinks this is a good idea then you can send my the $10 plus $10/month to keep have that on my account.

[Ya_Ya]

Reading comprehension.  It's your friend.

[bklvr896]

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Whatever81 wrote:

This is crazy. I am write a lot of security software and they don't need my credit card number for the security key. There is NO reason why they can't use the number from a B&N gift card.

As far as buying a prepaid visa just to use what i paid for is madness and I don't know why people even suggest that as an option. If anyone thinks this is a good idea then you can send my the $10 plus $10/month to keep have that on my account.

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Sure there is.  Folks might be willing to share the gift card number with others, most folks are not willing to share their credit card number.  I mean, I only keep $10 on the gift, sure here's the book I bought and here's the gift card number to unlock it. 

[American_Patri…]

I think everyone is overlooking the issue of HOLDING your credit card info on a server. Purchases from most other online store never store this info and it is gone when the transaction ends.

So, put the credit card in everytime I want to download it? Really?

And after trying to talk to a clearly apathethic customer service person today and their hostile "manager" I will never buy from B&N again. I work within walking distance to one and will just buy from Amazon.

[Bill5107]

Yeah, it's very disappointing to have a CC required at all for this stuff and even more disappointing that B&N doesn't care. I'd rather buy a B&N gift certificate to effectively "load up" for my NOOK purchases. And at $0 the real answer to this question is "because B&N wants to do it that way". There is no technical reason for this, it is all B&N scheme/business method/whatever you want to call it.

Not a deal-breaker to me yet, but I have been surprised by a few too many "that's stupid" issues in my short time with the NOOK with no real good answers from B&N. For example, if there were alternates that B&N worked out for us, then I'd have more patience, but I can't use a B&N gift card, PayPal or any of my other preferred options.

Sigh. I hope B&N grows up in this respect, tying a CC to my account is a supremely bad idea. I have too many of them and they expire frequently and any time I suspect a CC is being used in a way I did not approve. After all, CC is _ONLY_ intended to be a way to transfer money to a vendor. Period. I don't own or control my CC number in any sense of the word (check it out in my TOS with CC bank!).

We'll see how inconvenient this turns out to be. In practice I have numbers I am willing (reluctantly) to use with the NOOK.

Good luck folks and thanks for all the suggested work-arounds and even the "vote with your feet" replies, which where probably the most disappointing, but always a valid option.

Cheers all

[ProfReader]

The copy protection is tied to the credit card for very good reasons. The books are not tied to the reading device like with the Kindle. This allows your books to be read on any device that can read B&N epubs. Also you can share every book on your Nook with anyone that you are willing to share your credit card number with. This works great in my house with my family and close friends. You can use a debit card specifically as the credit card on your account and then use gift cards to purchase books. If you have friends that you want to share with but don't want them to know your card number just exchange Nooks and enter your number in each others Nooks. The actual number is not stored on the Nook. Now you can share books by side loading them. You can even email the book files and then load them on your Nook.

[bklvr896]

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Bill5107 wrote:

Yeah, it's very disappointing to have a CC required at all for this stuff and even more disappointing that B&N doesn't care. I'd rather buy a B&N gift certificate to effectively "load up" for my NOOK purchases. And at $0 the real answer to this question is "because B&N wants to do it that way". There is no technical reason for this, it is all B&N scheme/business method/whatever you want to call it.

Not a deal-breaker to me yet, but I have been surprised by a few too many "that's stupid" issues in my short time with the NOOK with no real good answers from B&N. For example, if there were alternates that B&N worked out for us, then I'd have more patience, but I can't use a B&N gift card, PayPal or any of my other preferred options.

Sigh. I hope B&N grows up in this respect, tying a CC to my account is a supremely bad idea. I have too many of them and they expire frequently and any time I suspect a CC is being used in a way I did not approve. After all, CC is _ONLY_ intended to be a way to transfer money to a vendor. Period. I don't own or control my CC number in any sense of the word (check it out in my TOS with CC bank!).

We'll see how inconvenient this turns out to be. In practice I have numbers I am willing (reluctantly) to use with the NOOK.

Good luck folks and thanks for all the suggested work-arounds and even the "vote with your feet" replies, which where probably the most disappointing, but always a valid option.

Cheers all

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If you have a Discover Card you can get a "virtual" card number that is only good for a single retailer.  It expires the same as your "real" card so all you have to do is update the expiration information.  So I don't understand your statement that credit cards expire, yes they do, and you just update the information.

I'd rather they use this DRM scheme than tying it to a device like Amazon does or using Adobe's DRM, which makes me deal with ADE.

[NyTeMair]

You are absolutely right. B&N used to be my favorite vendor and now due to the completely apathetic customer service 'supervisor' and B&N's draconican DRM and credit card requirements they have lost one very good family of voices who used to praise them and now will warn everyone away. I hope they like the value they get in that trade. Also the lame customer 'service' supervisor gave a bad email address that seems to be the common way they kick you down the road.

Like I have said before, it's like they break into my home and take a book I am reading and every other book I bought from them if they are unhappy with the current status of my cc! Is that going to be the future here?

[keriflur]

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NyTeMair wrote:

You are absolutely right. B&N used to be my favorite vendor and now due to the completely apathetic customer service 'supervisor' and B&N's draconican DRM and credit card requirements they have lost one very good family of voices who used to praise them and now will warn everyone away. I hope they like the value they get in that trade. Also the lame customer 'service' supervisor gave a bad email address that seems to be the common way they kick you down the road.

Like I have said before, it's like they break into my home and take a book I am reading and every other book I bought from them if they are unhappy with the current status of my cc! Is that going to be the future here?

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Um, replied to you in your original thread - do you want help with this, or just to gripe?  Because it's not at all like they're breaking into your home.  Not in the least.  You just need to know how to work within the system.