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Distinguished Bibliophile
RHWright
Posts: 1,619
Registered: ‎10-21-2009

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?


NyTeMair wrote:
This is the last time I will bother, but the problem is they can take away what you have already paid for and downloaded to your Nook if at any time in the future they don't have access to ANY credit card. When asked they did not tell us anything about it other than it was required to setup the account and purchase boooks. Period.

So, what is the expectation here? That, at the time of purchase or during the Q&A interaction of the sales process, the B&N staff person say, "Wait. In the interest of full disclosure, I will now read to you, word-for-word, the NOOK Terms of Service. I will then (being a legal expert working a retail job for some reason) explain it in plain English for your edification. Then (again, being a legal expert) I will answer any additional questions about the TOS you might have."

 

It's perfectly valid that you're annoyed. It's OK that you don't like B&N's DRM scheme. B&N might have done a better job at answering your initial pre-purchase questions. But it's right there in black-and-white.

 

You should have done your homework and read the TOS. No amount of whining to your state's Attorney General, the FTC, or whoever is going to change that. B&N didn't do anything fraudulent or deceptive. It was pretty much BAU for them and many other purveyors of electronic content. (There are some differences among them, but most are pretty similar. If a real legal expert could chime in?)

 

Most of us around here have made our somewhat grudging peace with DRM and the quasi-ownership/more-like-a-license nature of e-book purchases.

 

It's not the best of all worlds, but I'll take B&N's system to Apple's or Amazon's.

Contributor
NyTeMair
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎07-24-2012
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Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

Certainly no current B&N employee was at the meeting I am sorry to not have been clear. Basically one person was there who used to be a manager or assistant manager of a local B&N. He however agreed with me and it was several other people who thought B&N's DRM was just no big deal. Most in the end agreed that they did not want to deal with it.

Contributor
NyTeMair
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎07-24-2012
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Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

Yeah good idea they need to hire legal experts to explain the TOS... ;-) Like I said it was our error in not fully reading it and making sure it was understood. It is a current legal debate as to how much can be explained away in corporate behavior by having it in the fine print somewhere. B&N knowing that so many people are not happy with it's DRM could have had it suggested we read it before buying. It's not like it is on a sign at the store.

I'll take Apple's DRM any time.
Frequent Contributor
geertm
Posts: 1,193
Registered: ‎02-09-2010

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

[ Edited ]

NyTeMair wrote:

I'll take Apple's DRM any time.

I really should not reply to prolong this thread, but I cannot resist:smileyhappy:

 

Apple DRM ibooks can only be read on Apple devices,. You can only read those books on devices that are registered with the same iTunes account as the books were bought with. So sharing with other people is extremely limited.

 

B&N DRM ebooks can be read on on PC's, Mac's, Android and iOS devices. You can copy the books to as many devices as you like. Those devices do not have to registered to anything. Sharing with others (limited by those people that you trust with your credit card info, no technical restrictions) is easy.

 

What is so great about Apple DRM compared to B&N?

 

By the way the following is true for every ebookstore, including Apple and Kindle:

- If you buy an DRM ebook you just buy a license, you do not own the book. And the license terms can be changed after you bought the book (for example removing the lending right).

- There is no guarantee that you will always be able to download an ebook. Making backups is required with every ebookstore.

 

You will probably not be happy with the Terms of Service of any ebookstore!

 

 

 

Bibliophile
bklvr896
Posts: 4,814
Registered: ‎12-31-2009

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?


NyTeMair wrote:
Yeah good idea they need to hire legal experts to explain the TOS... ;-) Like I said it was our error in not fully reading it and making sure it was understood. It is a current legal debate as to how much can be explained away in corporate behavior by having it in the fine print somewhere. B&N knowing that so many people are not happy with it's DRM could have had it suggested we read it before buying. It's not like it is on a sign at the store.

I'll take Apple's DRM any time.

There is no indication that a significant number of users are not happy with its DRM.  While it may seem that way reading the forums, the forums are not representative of the universe of Nook holders.  First, people rarely post on forums, reviews, boards, etc, if they are happy and content with a product.  So these venues are going to be skewed to the negative.  Second, I would guess that less than 5% of Nook owners have visited these forums at all, so again, 5% is not representative of the users as a whole.  

 

Also, if you read the forums, there are an number of posts where people are happy with the DRM, they like that they can share with others.  It's probably close to an equal amount each way.  Which pretty much means nothing, because you don't know the opinion of the other 95% of the users.

 

If you're unhappy with the DRM, buy a Kindle or an iPad where you're happy with the more restrictive DRM.

Distinguished Bibliophile
RHWright
Posts: 1,619
Registered: ‎10-21-2009
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Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

In general, I find people who are unhappy with B&N's DRM are unhappy about the concept of DRM altogether. I can't really think of too many times I've seen statements supporting DRM, just not B&N's version. Not saying never, just very few.

 

DRM is pushed by the publishers for the most part, not the retailers. While retailers, like B&N, certainly do benefit from the lock-in and appreciate it, I'm sure they would prefer the benefit of any ereading consumer with any ereading device being able to purchase content from them easily.

 

I'm also sure their pie-in-the-sky scenario is any consumer being able to buy for their other branded devices, but any NOOK device being locked in to B&N purchases. :smileyvery-happy: 

 

As to the other bone of contention, that of B&N being able to "reach out" and remove access on the device to (previously purchased/downloaded) content if a valid CC is not on file: while this is technically possible under the TOS, do we have any verified instances where this was actually done? (And, as others have pointed out, this is why you need to make regular backups.)

Inspired Scribe
kamas716
Posts: 1,497
Registered: ‎09-28-2011
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Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?


RHWright wrote:

As to the other bone of contention, that of B&N being able to "reach out" and remove access on the device to (previously purchased/downloaded) content if a valid CC is not on file: while this is technically possible under the TOS, do we have any verified instances where this was actually done? (And, as others have pointed out, this is why you need to make regular backups.)


Well, that is one of the things nytmare is stating happened to him.

http://www.goodreads.com/kamas716
Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,767
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
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Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?


RHWright wrote:

 

DRM is pushed by the publishers for the most part, not the retailers. While retailers, like B&N, certainly do benefit from the lock-in and appreciate it, I'm sure they would prefer the benefit of any ereading consumer with any ereading device being able to purchase content from them easily.


I think there's a mix.  Both Amazon and Apple have gone out of their way to lock files to their world of devices, so I think in those cases those particular vendors would like all consumers to buy into their ecosystems, not just to buy their ebooks.  But when it comes to B&N, Kobo, and Google, I think they're more than happy to have anyone buy their books and would prefer fewer restrictions.

New User
Registereduser77
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎08-25-2012
0 Kudos

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

1. You did not answer the person's question.

2. Accusing someone of lying is not a good way to win friends and influence people....no, wait, I take that back.....you DO influence people by accusing people of lying....in many bad ways.  You might influence them to be quite ANGRY at you.

Distinguished Scribe
Ya_Ya
Posts: 3,334
Registered: ‎09-29-2010

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?


Registereduser77 wrote:

1. You did not answer the person's question.

2. Accusing someone of lying is not a good way to win friends and influence people....no, wait, I take that back.....you DO influence people by accusing people of lying....in many bad ways.  You might influence them to be quite ANGRY at you.


To whom are you responding?

 

And if someone is lying, there's nothing wrong with pointing it out.  :smileywink:

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,767
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?


Registereduser77 wrote:

1. You did not answer the person's question.

2. Accusing someone of lying is not a good way to win friends and influence people....no, wait, I take that back.....you DO influence people by accusing people of lying....in many bad ways.  You might influence them to be quite ANGRY at you.


Having a first post like this is not a great way to win friends either.  Just sayin'.

New User
YouBeKidding
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎12-16-2012
0 Kudos

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

[ Edited ]

Right wrote:

In general, I find people who are unhappy with B&N's DRM are unhappy about the concept of DRM altogether. I can't really think of too many times I've seen statements supporting DRAM, just not B&En's version. Not saying never, just very few.

 

DRAM is pushed by the publishers for the most part, not the retailers. While retailers, like B&N, certainly do benefit from the lock-in and appreciate it, I'm sure they would prefer the benefit of any reading consumer with any ereading device being able to purchase content from them easily.

 

I'm also sure their pie-in-the-sky scenario is any consumer being able to buy for their other branded devices, but any NOOK device being locked in to B&N purchases. :smileyvery-happy: 

 

As to the other bone of contention, that of B&N being able to "reach out" and remove access on the device to (previously purchased/downloaded) content if a valid CC is not on file: while this is technically possible under the TOS, do we have any verified instances where this was actually done? (And, as others have pointed out, this is why you need to make regular backups.)


In general I agree with DRM, when it is use in the digital realm properly.  In theory this is good.  BUT - Where are the protections to prevent "Personal Identity Thief?"  What encryption skeems are used to hash this CC number?  What security measures are in place to prevent use of the CC number or access of the number, should the device get into the wrong hands.  Nook is lock so one cannot use it?  How difficult is it to by-pass such measures?

 

Am I a dooms day sayer?  I think not, just look at the news of B&N's retail outlets - about 60+ across the country, I think - and what happened to those pin card readers getting hacked.  Look at the other online Identity theft and security penetrations.

 

For those of us who value out Personal Identity and want to protect it in a manner we feel safe, "Why shoudl we bow down to a company's pre-sale non-disclosure of forcing users to fork over a CC number, just to get updates and free apps?"  When will B&N require a CC number to make an inshore purchase, in the guise of protecting our purchase of intellectual prosperity?

 

A simple answer is to have in place an alternate number (all numeric or alpha-numeric) to use for those of us who are passionate about protecting our personal identity.  Again this has NOTHING to do with DRM, it's all about Personal Identity Protection, in the digital age.  NObody gets to keep my credit card number other than DURING a purchase or credit to that card!

Inspired Contributor
robertVA
Posts: 212
Registered: ‎07-19-2011
0 Kudos

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

The details of business procedures like this are often kept under wraps for either security reasons or to restrict the ability of competitors to imitate the inventing company's business practices.

 

Since purchases can be made directly from the readers and many of the applications that run on third party devices credit card information would need to be entered each time a book is purchased or stored electronically to produce the payment request for the customer's financial institution. Account numbers are sixteen digits long and there would probably be increased problems with erroneous entries if customers had to enter the account number on the reader software's virtual keyboard each time they purchased a book. Of course if the reader isn't configured to require the account password to make ePublication purchases anyone who aquires physical possession of the device can purchase material until the account owner manages to change the password or through B&N's site or report that device to B&N as stolen/lost.

 

The use of an account number to decrypt ePublications would not necessarily require the account number being stored on the device. Part of the software could use the account holder's name and cc account number to generate a unique number that could not be used to work backwards to find the cc account number. Techniques for generating Irreversible encryption/decryption keys like this have been used for various purposes for several decades.

Bibliophile
bklvr896
Posts: 4,814
Registered: ‎12-31-2009

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

[ Edited ]

YouBeKidding wrote:

Right wrote:

In general, I find people who are unhappy with B&N's DRM are unhappy about the concept of DRM altogether. I can't really think of too many times I've seen statements supporting DRAM, just not B&En's version. Not saying never, just very few.

 

DRAM is pushed by the publishers for the most part, not the retailers. While retailers, like B&N, certainly do benefit from the lock-in and appreciate it, I'm sure they would prefer the benefit of any reading consumer with any ereading device being able to purchase content from them easily.

 

I'm also sure their pie-in-the-sky scenario is any consumer being able to buy for their other branded devices, but any NOOK device being locked in to B&N purchases. :smileyvery-happy: 

 

As to the other bone of contention, that of B&N being able to "reach out" and remove access on the device to (previously purchased/downloaded) content if a valid CC is not on file: while this is technically possible under the TOS, do we have any verified instances where this was actually done? (And, as others have pointed out, this is why you need to make regular backups.)


In general I agree with DRM, when it is use in the digital realm properly.  In theory this is good.  BUT - Where are the protections to prevent "Personal Identity Thief?"  What encryption skeems are used to hash this CC number?  What security measures are in place to prevent use of the CC number or access of the number, should the device get into the wrong hands.  Nook is lock so one cannot use it?  How difficult is it to by-pass such measures?

 

Am I a dooms day sayer?  I think not, just look at the news of B&N's retail outlets - about 60+ across the country, I think - and what happened to those pin card readers getting hacked.  Look at the other online Identity theft and security penetrations.

 

For those of us who value out Personal Identity and want to protect it in a manner we feel safe, "Why shoudl we bow down to a company's pre-sale non-disclosure of forcing users to fork over a CC number, just to get updates and free apps?"  When will B&N require a CC number to make an inshore purchase, in the guise of protecting our purchase of intellectual prosperity?

 

A simple answer is to have in place an alternate number (all numeric or alpha-numeric) to use for those of us who are passionate about protecting our personal identity.  Again this has NOTHING to do with DRM, it's all about Personal Identity Protection, in the digital age.  NObody gets to keep my credit card number other than DURING a purchase or credit to that card!


The cc number along with other info from your BN account is used to create an encryption key to unlock the book, the cc number is not stored on the device.

 

as far as an alternate number, the cc number is used because you're unlikely to share that number with just anyone.  What other number does any one else have that they're not likely to be willing to share easily.

 

One option you could look into is a Discover Card and set up virtual cards.  The number is different than your actual card number and can only be used at the store where the first purchase is made, so even if the got the number, it could only be used at BN.

Distinguished Bibliophile
keriflur
Posts: 6,767
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
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Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?


YouBeKidding wrote:
What encryption skeems are used to hash this CC number?  What security measures are in place to prevent use of the CC number or access of the number, should the device get into the wrong hands.  Nook is lock so one cannot use it?  How difficult is it to by-pass such measures?

Well, the CC number is not stored on the device, just the hash, and as it's impossible to recreate a number from the hash, it's impossible to get the CC number from the device.

 

Yes, if the nook is stolen or lost, it's possible for someone to buy things on it from B&N through the store on the device.  But they can only buy through the store, and the device can be (a) remote deregistered through the nook website, (b) remote deregistered via calling CS, (c) marked as stolen and blacklisted (so that it can never be re-registered) via calling CS.

 

And heck, pay attention people.  If you're losing something as a big as a nook, how are you keeping track of your wallet?

Distinguished Bibliophile
MacMcK1957
Posts: 2,215
Registered: ‎07-25-2011
0 Kudos

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

I have an older N1E that I have occasionally lent out to people (easy way to lend books), but didn't want them to buy anything new on my account.  I just updated my account so that new purchases require a password.  If someone finds one of my Nooks, they could read the books there, but not purchase new ones.

New User
mountallie
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎01-02-2013
0 Kudos

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

The cc is needed even to download the book.  I tried buying a book through the B&N gift system for my young daughter to read in her nook app on her tablet.  The purchase went through ok as a gift, but when we tried downloading it, the nook app required a cc.  I do not want to attach a credit card to my daughter's account for the same reason the government guys didn't want to attach a credit card to their accounts: I do not want my daughter to "accidentally" make purchases!


DRM does not require cc.  B&N does!

Distinguished Bibliophile
Mercury_Glitch
Posts: 1,448
Registered: ‎06-07-2011

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?


mountallie wrote:

The cc is needed even to download the book.  I tried buying a book through the B&N gift system for my young daughter to read in her nook app on her tablet.  The purchase went through ok as a gift, but when we tried downloading it, the nook app required a cc.  I do not want to attach a credit card to my daughter's account for the same reason the government guys didn't want to attach a credit card to their accounts: I do not want my daughter to "accidentally" make purchases!


DRM does not require cc.  B&N does!


 

Most pre-paid cards will work.  Get one with say 10 dollars on it.

 

Don't want to risk a pre-paid card not working?  That's ok too!

 

Go to settings - shop - click 'require password to purchase' now your daughter can not buy anything unless you enter the password. 

 

Still worried?  Get a gift card, even if she gets through the password you now have a bit of a shell.  Explain to her that you don't want her buying things without your permission.  If she manages to get through the password and spends through the shell tell her there will be some sort of punishment. 

 

Want to be totally secure?

 

Pre-paid cc, password to purchase, gift card.  Now even if she gets through the password, spends the gift card, AND spends the pre-paid CC she's limited by however much you feel comfortable putting out there. 

 

DRM does not require a CC, there are other ways to do it.  However it's how B&N does it, and while it may not be ideal they have also made it fairly easy to use for a number of situations. 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and we are only the thread of the Pattern.
Wordsmith
tmr4
Posts: 268
Registered: ‎05-08-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

You can use another ereader on the tablet to read the BN ebooks. Just download the books in the nook app, move them to another directory and then import them to the other ereader. You'll need to enter your name and credit card info for the drm. It is a bit of a pain, but I did this for awhile until I set up my daughter's own account. It has gift cards linked and I told her any purchases above that come out of her allowance.
Contributor
nooktwo
Posts: 21
Registered: ‎01-09-2013
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Re: Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

I finally figured out a workaround. You must have a CC to purchase eBook. And by "purchase", it includes both free eBook on B&N and Read-in-Store. I don't think the owner's manual mention about the requirement.

 

Using expired CC or cancelled CC does not work because B&N will attempt to charge your card (even for free eBooks) and it will fail.

 

Getting a prepaid CC is the way to go but it is not ideal because it cost money and even has a front load purchase fee.

 

The best free workaround I found is the ever popular credit cards given for rebates. I have several of these cards per year. I first use up the balance like I normally would. Then I can enter the card numbers into the Nook and it will work until the card expires!