Why do free NOOKbooks require a credit card number when no purchase is necessary?

[BR_miT]

You are failing to see the point so I'll spell it out to you.  MarinoR is not concerned with the free downloads being charged to the government credit card it is the inadvertent download of a priced book which would automatically charge to the card.  I agree it would be much more simple if one could enter credit card numbers on an as needed basis. 

And yes I do understand that BN has some screwed-up version of DRM that requires the CC.

[KingAl]

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BR_miT wrote:

You are failing to see the point so I'll spell it out to you.  MarinoR is not concerned with the free downloads being charged to the government credit card it is the inadvertent download of a priced book which would automatically charge to the card.  I agree it would be much more simple if one could enter credit card numbers on an as needed basis. 

And yes I do understand that BN has some screwed-up version of DRM that requires the CC.

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It would help if you used the quote function so we know who you are talking to...

[bklvr896]

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BR_miT wrote:

You are failing to see the point so I'll spell it out to you.  MarinoR is not concerned with the free downloads being charged to the government credit card it is the inadvertent download of a priced book which would automatically charge to the card.  I agree it would be much more simple if one could enter credit card numbers on an as needed basis. 

And yes I do understand that BN has some screwed-up version of DRM that requires the CC.

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I like B&N version of the DRM and don't think it's screwed up.  It's not tied to a device or devices (Kindle) and it's not tied to an account (Adobe).  I only have to deal with ADE when I sideload books. I can lend books to anyone I'm willing to share my credit card number with.  This lets families have separate accounts but only buy those books multiple people want to read one time.  It works great for me and my mom.

And this thread is over a month and you can password protect the device for purchases, so to purchase something, the user would have to actively input the password.

[Sleeplessbooks]

This thread is quite interesting, and I'll tell you why.  We have a number of people complaining about being required to enter a credit card number in for free content.  Many people are complaining about having to put *anything* in.  Free means free, and it shouldn't need a form of payment. Ever.  Nobody seems to be adequately addressing this.  The responses vary from "Use a prepaid card" to "you should've googled this before, I guess a nook isn't for you." But the point remains valid:

Asking for a credit card for free content is a TERRIBLE idea.  It's terrible for the customer, and it'e terrible for business.  If there's free content you're making available, it should be readily available with as few roadblocks in the way as possible.  Now that there's a Nook Tablet, this is also relevant because of the apps available.  I can't get the Smithsonian Institute Channel app on my nook without a credit card.  I can't browse through and see the free ebook, see how easy it is to download and start reading it, and then fall so much in love with it that I don't mind going on and snagging a few non-free books... providing a credit card at that point, and not a moment sooner.

I'll say this one more time: Asking for a credit card for free content is a TERRIBLE idea.

I won't do gift cards of prepaid cards or any of the workarounds discussed in this thread, because it's still such a huge hassle.  This stuff should just work.

Am I a bad person because I want things to work seemlessly? No.

Should I have done my research before buying a nook? Yes?

With this in mind, should I have purchased a nook? No.

And I hope Barnes & Noble recognizes this trend. But they won't. Because my feelings are magically invalidated when they can point to competition that's worse.  Because being the least awful option out there is apparently the same as being the best.

I'm challenging you to be better.  Please do away with the credit card requirement for free content. I don't know what you need to do. Just figure it out & share with us what you're doing to try to make that happen. I'm waiting.

[RHWright]

@Sleeplessbooks: While I agree with you in principle that there should be as few roadblocks as possible to getting free content, I think you may be overlooking the practicalities of the issues of content delivery.

(I preface these comments with the caveat that I am not a programmer, so I can't evaluate precisely the requirements. These impressions are based on observation only. Anyone who knows better, please feel free to correct me.)

B&N is in the business of providing content, much of which is paid for. Almost all of this will have DRM. Much of the free content (for various reasons) will have DRM as well. They need to have a system in place to manage/verify DRM. (Whether DRM is a good/wise thing is a totally different discussion.)

In B&N's case, the DRM involves having a valid CC# on file at the time of download.

I don't think it's practical to have two systems of DRM verification, one for paid content and one for free. Especially when promotional titles may switch from one to the other. If it's even possible, I don't know if that added layer of complexity is desirable in a system with enough known quirks as it is.

If all you want is free content, there are better ways out there, many of which require no DRM or even any kind of identifying information (e.g. manybooks.net).

However, if you plan to or already do deal with both paid and free content, what is the harm in having a CC# on file with your B&N account? What is so onerous about that?

If you're worried about absolutely 100% secure information, then you probably shouldn't be on the Internet at all. Heck, you probably shouldn't be a citizen in any technological nation, because information about you is somewhere in a computer system that cannot be guaranteed, without fail, to be 100% secure.

Maybe the solution is for B&N to have a distinct "free content" site—think the manybooks model—for content that is DRM-free and would not require an account set-up or associating personal information? I can think of several pluses to this, from both user and marketing perspectives.

[Tarheelgal]

I just purchased a nook a few days  ago and was wondering how this works.  I to debated putting my cc info online.  But this is really helpful information.  I think I am going to enjoy the nook once I get started and even take to school and let my class enjoy the technology they indirectly brought me with  gift cards they gave for me Christmas this year.  But this info really helps.  Thanks for saving me the trip and phone call to BN.

[wisdombunny]

Thanks for the info guys. 

[CorndogSS]

Why should I have to have a prepaid CC when I have a giftcard balance entered?  This positively makes no sense whatsoever.  We bought this for a gift for our 9 year old daughter and bought her gift cards to go with it.  Maybe it will have to be returned.

[robertVA]

CorndogSS:

Because the eBook publishers insist on Digital Rights Management (DRM). The eBooks are data files which are encrypted using some of the same concepts that have been protecting communications from prying eyes for decades. The technology requires a key, in the form of a sequence of letters or numbers, to translate the encrypted material to a readable form. Barnes & Noble decided to make credit card numbers a part of their key because people would be reluctant to share such information in connection with illegitimate file sharing. Without some form of DRM Barnes & Noble would  have no books to sell.

Even when publishers charge nothing for material they might want to restrict the ability for others to distribute it. They might want to protect the option to charge for the material in the future. There has even been some cases where some third party has been charging people for material that their customers weren't aware was free from the  original source.

Nooks include an optional function that requires the entry of the account password to squire a publication through B & N. As there is material available that most parents wouldn't consider appropriate for minors you should consider activating the password for purchases option for that purpose alone. I suspect the sites operated for the other readers also have some material that would be inappropriate for minors.

[Pippa-Feathers…]

It sounds to me as if you are simply looking to fight someone by saying they have a sense of "entitlement". Really? You couldn't be more understanding that sometimes we buy something we don't know a lot about? Have you never done this in your life? Who is truly toting the sense of entitlement here?

[bklvr896]

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Sleeplessbooks wrote:

I'm challenging you to be better.  Please do away with the credit card requirement for free content. I don't know what you need to do. Just figure it out & share with us what you're doing to try to make that happen. I'm waiting.

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I know this is 2 weeks old but if this poster ever returns, you do realize that the DRM is a publisher requirement, not a B&N requirement.  They don't make the decision on whether or not the book has DRM, the publisher does.  And if the publisher does require it, then they are going to use the system they have in place, not set up a separate system for free books.  Any DRM is going to require some extra steps.  If it the DRM used by Kobo, Sony, etc, it requires the use of the store's reader or Adobe Digital Editions to download and transfer the book.  

[robertVA]

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Pippa-Featherstone wrote:

It sounds to me as if you are simply looking to fight someone by saying they have a sense of "entitlement". Really? You couldn't be more understanding that sometimes we buy something we don't know a lot about? Have you never done this in your life? Who is truly toting the sense of entitlement here?

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Who are you responding to?

It takes quite a bit of thought and time to create a book, magazine, song or video/movie, especially one that most people would want to read/view. Some of the people with the talent to create interesting works use that talent to make a living. DRM provides the additional incentive to make readers/listeners/viewers financially compensate artists for their efforts. Some of the free material is essentially an extended sample to allow readers to decide if they are interested in other material generated by the same artist(s), but the DRM preserves the artist's right to charge for that work should they decide to do so in the future (as in the case of the "Free Fridays" promotions).

[Sleeplessbooks]

@RHWright: Public domain works never require DRMs. The publishers probably don't exist anymore, anyways. Or in instances where they're government publications, they're still not copyrighted...

Yes.  B&N is in the business of providing content, much of which is paid for.  Right now, I have zero plans for dealing with paid content, purely because I disagree with the B&N DRM plan.  My mom has a nook with loads of paid eBooks on there.  Her credit card expired, she got a new one... and suddenly, her ebooks stopped working, and Barnes & Noble refused to unlock them until she gave her another credit card number.  A credit card number to unlock the content she already purchased.  So right there, they're still not getting my CC#. (One more reason why I'm calling for them to abandon their system and go for one that allows full access to persist even after a customer chooses to withdraw their credit card number from Barnes and Noble's servers.)

"If you're worried about absolutely 100% secure information, then you probably shouldn't be on the Internet at all."

This is not a very good argument.  It's not that I'm worried about security everywhere.  I'm worried about security HERE.  So far, I don't see reasons why linking a credit card number to my nook (by ANY means) can be considered a good idea. It's too dangerous.  When I deal with other merchants, I ensure that my credit card number does not stay on file.  With B&N, this is apparently not an option -- based on everything I've read, anyways.  What I need to be able to do is remove my CC# at will and have all my content still work.  (Hint: you can't do that.)

bklvr896: DRMs are never required for public domain works.  B&N made the decision to add the DRM requirement to ALL transactions, regardless of copyright status.  This is a B&N decision, not a publisher decision.  That's #1.  #2 is that it's a problematic system that forces customers to forever link their nooks and their B&N ebook purchases up with a current credit card on file.  Barnes & Noble should be fighting back with the publishers and asking for something that works better for the customer.  Maybe they are.  I really hope they are.

To sum everything up, there needs to be SOMETHING out there that doesn't require a credit card number.  Something that shows how painless the process is, so we're more likely to *want* to go ahead and buy digital content.

And when I buy the digital content, it can't be linked to a credit card number.  I NEED to be able to remove my CC# from file at will & still have access to all my content.  At the moment, I can't.

One final note: My free PDF ebooks from archive.org don't work very well due to the native PDF reader's inability to load them with any kind of reliability.  In terms of apps, it's no longer possible to side-load apps (due to B&N restrictions), so I'm inclined to say that I won't be able to get the Smithsonian Channel app without having to fork over my credit card number.

What'd be really nice is if I could find a better PDF reader, download it for free w/o CC, and then have a nook that works better.  And then, that'll be one more thing that entices me to make the switch to eBooks.

In summary, I am publicly protesting Barnes & Noble's requirement to link DRMs to credit card numbers.  Paid or free content, it puts customers in an unfair position.  I won't give them mine. Not under current conditions.

[MT59]

A credit card requirement is not only counter-intuitive, it's an inappropriate invasion.  I bought an underprivileged child a Nook & $100 in gift cards this Christmas to continue the early passion shown for knowledge and reading.

Imagine assisting this "young adult" (12) through the excitement of setting up an account only to discover that he can't actually have any items unless I provide B & N with my credit card number!  What a great way to insure cash flow!

Forgive my oversimplification, but if DRM requires a number sequence, why not use the "hidden, secure" one included on the gift card?  That way, when the money is gone, a child I may never see again in my life doesn't have access to my credit card for his entertainment!

[robertVA]

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MT59 wrote:

A credit card requirement is not only counter-intuitive, it's an inappropriate invasion.  I bought an underprivileged child a Nook & $100 in gift cards this Christmas to continue the early passion shown for knowledge and reading.

Imagine assisting this "young adult" (12) through the excitement of setting up an account only to discover that he can't actually have any items unless I provide B & N with my credit card number!  What a great way to insure cash flow!

Forgive my oversimplification, but if DRM requires a number sequence, why not use the "hidden, secure" one included on the gift card?  That way, when the money is gone, a child I may never see again in my life doesn't have access to my credit card for his entertainment!

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You could have bought a prepaid "credit" card at the supermarket, aquired a web based eMail account for the recipeint and used both to start an account at B&N. Then the recipient could use gift card(s) or the balance on the prepaid card without the risk of them accessing your normal accounts.

I suspect the CC information was chosen for the DRM key for the very reason that people would be reluctant to share it. If gift card codes were used the numbers from empty cards would be spead all over the Internet.

[Doug_Pardee Distinguished Bibliophile]

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MT59 wrote:

Imagine assisting this "young adult" (12) through the excitement of setting up an account only to discover that he can't actually have any items unless I provide B & N with my credit card number!

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Someone 12 years old can't legitimately have a B&N account anyway. In the US, the Child Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA) forbids it without verifiable parental consent, and that is echoed in B&N's Terms of Use:

we do not knowingly collect or solicit personal information from children under the age of 13 or knowingly allow such persons to register for an online account

The word knowingly is in keeping with the Federal rules regarding general web sites — those not intended for use by children. For sites like B&N, age is a "don't-ask-don't-tell" sort of thing.

More info: http://business.ftc.gov/privacy-and-security/children%E2%80%99s-privacy

A reasonable approach is to create an additional account with your credit card number and a password that you do not give to the child, then register the child's NOOK to that account. Use password-locking to prevent the child from being able to buy any e-books on their own. If they want an e-book, they ask you and you purchase the e-book for them.

[bklvr896]

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robertVA wrote:

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MT59 wrote:

A credit card requirement is not only counter-intuitive, it's an inappropriate invasion.  I bought an underprivileged child a Nook & $100 in gift cards this Christmas to continue the early passion shown for knowledge and reading.

Imagine assisting this "young adult" (12) through the excitement of setting up an account only to discover that he can't actually have any items unless I provide B & N with my credit card number!  What a great way to insure cash flow!

Forgive my oversimplification, but if DRM requires a number sequence, why not use the "hidden, secure" one included on the gift card?  That way, when the money is gone, a child I may never see again in my life doesn't have access to my credit card for his entertainment!

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You could have bought a prepaid "credit" card at the supermarket, aquired a web based eMail account for the recipeint and used both to start an account at B&N. Then the recipient could use gift card(s) or the balance on the prepaid card without the risk of them accessing your normal accounts.

I suspect the CC information was chosen for the DRM key for the very reason that people would be reluctant to share it. If gift card codes were used the numbers from empty cards would be spead all over the Internet.

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Robert, that's the issue.  To create the encryption key it has to be (1) something verifiable, which is why a DL won't work and (2) it has be something people are reluctant to share with others, which is why the gift card number won't work.

The other option is to tie it to the device, like Amazon does.  

People tend to forget, because most of us are honest, that there are people out there who have no problem stealing, and because of that, the honest folks are inconvenienced.

[sparks16]

I don't know much about encryption or DRM.  It seems to me that if B&N wants to make the Nook a success, I shouldn't have to.  I do know that I have started to read a Kindle book on my laptop, switched to my cell phone and then switched to my ipad.  I know Amazon doesn't need my credit card for that to happen.

The Nook process is a bit frustrating: my daughter got a B&N gift card for christmas, so I installed the Nook app on the iPad, created a B&N account, added the gift card to it, then tried to buy the book, and THEN was told I needed a credit card.**  By this point the gift card was already in my account -- I would have been happier letting her keep the gift card to use at the store and using an amazon gift card for a kindle book.

Especially coming off the Kindle app, that's counter-intuitive -- credit cards are for buying, just like gift cards.

(** it was more painful, because after my first attempt at the credit card, I got a screen that said that there was server maintenance.  Then, when I finally entered the credit card in and downloaded the book, the iPad App said that it couldn't open it.  So, I archived it and it disappeared completely from the app -- I actually had to go back to the webpage to unarchive it.  All told, a 20-minute experience.  If I didn't already have the gift card in the system, I would have punted.)

[bklvr896]

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sparks16 wrote:

I don't know much about encryption or DRM.  It seems to me that if B&N wants to make the Nook a success, I shouldn't have to.  I do know that I have started to read a Kindle book on my laptop, switched to my cell phone and then switched to my ipad.  I know Amazon doesn't need my credit card for that to happen.

The Nook process is a bit frustrating: my daughter got a B&N gift card for christmas, so I installed the Nook app on the iPad, created a B&N account, added the gift card to it, then tried to buy the book, and THEN was told I needed a credit card.**  By this point the gift card was already in my account -- I would have been happier letting her keep the gift card to use at the store and using an amazon gift card for a kindle book.

Especially coming off the Kindle app, that's counter-intuitive -- credit cards are for buying, just like gift cards.

(** it was more painful, because after my first attempt at the credit card, I got a screen that said that there was server maintenance.  Then, when I finally entered the credit card in and downloaded the book, the iPad App said that it couldn't open it.  So, I archived it and it disappeared completely from the app -- I actually had to go back to the webpage to unarchive it.  All told, a 20-minute experience.  If I didn't already have the gift card in the system, I would have punted.)

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That is because the DRM that Amazon uses is tied to the device.  In other words, each device you want to read the book on has to be registered to the account.  So a family, in order to share books, would have to all be registered on the same account and I think there is a limit of 6 devices.  I have the Kindle App on my computer and phone and each one of those is registered to the account.

With the B&N DRM, it's not tied to the device.  So families can share books without sharing an account.  Which means if husband and wife generally don't read the same books, but occasionally do, rather than having their Nooks cluttered with books they'll never read, they have separate accounts, and simply sideload the books to the other's device.

It's simply a different method of DRM.  B&N chose not to tie it to specific devices.  For some, the B&N DRM is a better option, for those who don't want to put a cc on file for whatever reason, it may not be the better option.  I prefer the B&N DRM, as I can share books with my mother but I don't have to share an account with her.

As far as the gift card goes, as long as you still have the card, you can use it in the store.  You can easily remove it from your account.

[Wylee]

I was a little annoyed when i first discovered i had to have my cc on file in order to download free books. Then i was irritated when i downloaded one, and when i wanted to read it, i got a pop up message saying i have to enter the cc number to unlock the book. Wow, talk about frustrating! Then i read on this discussion panel that if for some reason i get a new cc, all my previously purchased ebooks and apps will be gone. WTH, electronic or not, i paid full price for them and they should be mine forever, no matter what! So now, the rest of my life, if i wanna keep my stuff, i gotta keep on giving B&N my cc? I guess i should have gotten the kindle. i know i'm gonna avoid buying my ebooks here from now on. Anyone got some other sites for buying ebooks they can recommend?