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penname2
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Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

Any thoughts?

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patgolfneb
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

Legally, they could. I doubt they will unless the number of people choosing to use it increases dramatically.

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2noelle
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

What is this about? CN?
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compulsivereaderTX
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

[ Edited ]

legally?  BN severing the warranty IS a legal consequence. Once the warranty is voided and the legal relationship between BN and the device's owner is severed, I don't see what BN can do about it that would make financial sense. Deny them the ability to purchase from the store?

 

It's a fact, there are people who are going to explore their tech devices, see what they can do with it and how to make it better, at least in their own eyes. They are "problem solvers and tinkerers" and get intense satifaction in successfully solving those problems. How else would all the tech advances have been imagined and brought to life so quickly over the last few decades? Many of those advances were due to the same process and not neccessarily by people who went to college to learn how to do that or were employed by the manufacturing companies. Many of the improvements seen in tech was lifted from such people by the companies that make such devices so they don't have a whole lot of moral room to speak. I can't imagine that any prosecution of such behavior will be successful in stopping it. We're dealing with a mind set that is almost compulsive in the need to figure things out and how to make it better (as to their own needs). They don't see their behavior as illegal or immoral if it's not used for illegal or immoral activities.

 

I speak from experience. My own hubby can not get a tech device in his hands without having to pick it apart and see how it works. I imagine his dad must have lamented over Lawn mowers, etc always being in pieces when DH was a chld. Steve Jobs was hubbys hero, his IPhone and IPad are the only devices he owns that he's never tinkered with, he said he doesn't have to, he likes them as is.

 

Does modifying void the warranty? yes. Does he care? No, he considers it better now and wouldn't trade it for a warranty for any reason. He was one of the geeks that taught me how to build my own computer from scratch 20 or so years ago and he continues to build his own computers and networks. Our first official date was to see and drool over the 486 he built. The house we recently built is a techies dream, he spent hours and weeks, designing and then laying the cables and networking throughout the house as it was built so HAL could live with us and be available in every room. I helped in the laying of those cables, etc. There were times when I thought "really? We are going to need this?" :smileyhappy:  He doesn't see a need to wait for someone else to put what he needs on the market when he can do it himself. He sees the tech gagdets available as a means to an end, not the final product. Lawsuits won't change this behavior. He's a tinkerer, he has to tinker with everything.

 

BN can make the device more difficult to modify but I don't see what they can do legally that wouldn't be a major waste of resources. When the modifications are used to enhance functionality and not to steal or hack, it would be wiser of BN to consider adding those functions to the device, rather than prosecuting others for fulfilling their own needs.

 

Even MS took the modifications by Hackers to the XBOX and incorporated those ideas and functions into the XBOX experience.

 

Many of the tech companies out there are only tinkerers that saw a need and figured out how to improve a device by tailoring it to that need, then took it to the next level and started manufacturing the devices based on what they created from their tinkering. Dell, anyone? Steve Jobs? Bill Gates?

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TnTexas
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

patgolfneb: Legally, they could. I doubt they will unless the number of people choosing to use it increases dramatically.

 

How could B&N go after someone modifying his/her own tablet/ereader for personal use and expect to win the case? Void the warranty and refuse to help them solve problems that might arise? Absolutely. But beyond that? I don't see what they can/could do.

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patgolfneb
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?


TnTexas wrote:

patgolfneb: Legally, they could. I doubt they will unless the number of people choosing to use it increases dramatically.

 

How could B&N go after someone modifying his/her own tablet/ereader for personal use and expect to win the case? Void the warranty and refuse to help them solve problems that might arise? Absolutely. But beyond that? I don't see what they can/could do.


Because, except for cell phones, federal law was modified making these kind of modifications illegal. Civil penalties only, but the law is on the books. No court test yet so it could be overturned for the reasons you listed.

flyingtoastr
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?


TnTexas wrote:

patgolfneb: Legally, they could. I doubt they will unless the number of people choosing to use it increases dramatically.

 

How could B&N go after someone modifying his/her own tablet/ereader for personal use and expect to win the case? Void the warranty and refuse to help them solve problems that might arise? Absolutely. But beyond that? I don't see what they can/could do.


If you modified the NOOK device to circumvent the payments for content from the shop (effectively downloading an item and tricking the server into thinking you had paid for it when you hadn't like what happened to iOS last year) they would probably go after you for theft.

 

Outside of that, meh. Just don't try to get warranty coverage when you brick the thing and it's live and let live.

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5ivedom
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

Depends on what you mean by 'crack down'. Compulsive Reader's answer makes the most sense to me.

 

There's not much they can do legally. They can't really crack down because there's always some new way to circumvent checks.

 

What's your concern? That CN mod would stop working on your Nook. That's very unlikely.

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TnTexas
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

[ Edited ]

patgolfneb: Because, except for cell phones, federal law was modified making these kind of modifications illegal. Civil penalties only, but the law is on the books. No court test yet so it could be overturned for the reasons you listed.

 

There are laws in place that actually say someone can't modify their own entertainment device? I'm not talking about using to do something illegal like downloading books or music from a store without paying for it as mentioned in flyingtoastr's post. That's an obvious no-go. I'm simply talking about hacking it to run a different operating system on it than it was sold with. There are laws on the books that make that illegal? Really? (serious question, by the way)

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patgolfneb
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

Yes, there are, once again cell phones are exempt.
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compulsivereaderTX
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

[ Edited ]

flyingtoastr wrote:

TnTexas wrote:

patgolfneb: Legally, they could. I doubt they will unless the number of people choosing to use it increases dramatically.

 

How could B&N go after someone modifying his/her own tablet/ereader for personal use and expect to win the case? Void the warranty and refuse to help them solve problems that might arise? Absolutely. But beyond that? I don't see what they can/could do.


If you modified the NOOK device to circumvent the payments for content from the shop (effectively downloading an item and tricking the server into thinking you had paid for it when you hadn't like what happened to iOS last year) they would probably go after you for theft.

 

Outside of that, meh. Just don't try to get warranty coverage when you brick the thing and it's live and let live.


I can see prosecution for that. That's actual theft. I didn't even know that was possible, let alone that someone had done it.

 

Bn has known that their devices are hacked since almost day one. There have been a couple of almost successful attempts to stop such hacking. Ironically, my HD+ was the easiest to mod to date. :smileyhappy: I think BN could probably prevent a lot of the hacking by bringing some of the apps hackers are wanting into the BN garden. There will be a few bad apples, but overall, most people are looking for functionality and usefulness when they hack, not to steal. That's a given in ANY situation, not just in modifying devices. But maybe I'm naive in assuming most people are honest. I modded for one reason and one reason only: to find a better solution to getting content to my device when my usb connections refused to work anymore. Dropsync was the closest to working well for me, but lacked a function library system. Then I got spoiled with my Calibre server and I don't want to give up my Calibre Companion app. It solves too many problems for me that BN won't solve. I even use it to catalog my BN Library and find it more stable than BN's shelving system. 

 

I haven't bricked a device yet. Crossing fingers that it stays that way. :smileyhappy: Hoping BN puts a solution in place so I won't have to worry about it having a functioning library system anymore rather than a pile of ebooks.

 

Edit: yes, it took my techie guy forever to fix my PC for me. My old PC always worked perfect when he would look at it to fix it for me when I complained, Like when the car makes funny noises until the hubby drives it, and he doesn't realize there's a real problem until it breaks down somewhere.  He did built me a new one after he had to use it for an afternoon while he rebuilt his own. But I still like my Calibre Companion app, my usb is used for other purposes now. 

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patgolfneb
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

The basis is that the consumer has no right to modify the software functioning of a device. Modification of hardware is different, most examples compare rooting to hardware modification, this is not how dcma and library of congress interpret this. Again action against individuals is not even contemplated. Firms selling assistance or device resellers could be. The official position of the White house does not support this. Reports are that changes in the law protecting consumer choice to root are supported but nothing official is in the pipeline yet.
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compulsivereaderTX
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?


patgolfneb wrote:
The basis is that the consumer has no right to modify the software functioning of a device. Modification of hardware is different, most examples compare rooting to hardware modification, this is not how dcma and library of congress interpret this. Again action against individuals is not even contemplated. Firms selling assistance or device resellers could be. The official position of the White house does not support this. Reports are that changes in the law protecting consumer choice to root are supported but nothing official is in the pipeline yet.

Interesting. But...doesn't this compare to buying and installing software that didn't come already installed onto a PC? Every piece of computer software on the market effectively modifies a computer. Going a step farther, people have been completely removing the original OS on computers for a system they like or that suits their needs better for a very long time.

 

I think the only reason this is now a problem is that many of these device manufacturers are attempting to enforce a walled garden environment in which competition can be deleted from the equation. Modifications now circumvent this "monopoly" on the consumers pocketbook and that is the ONLY reason it is now considered such a "problem" that should be made illegal. The only theft going on is a sale that might go to someone else who provides better service or product and that should not be, nor ever be illegal in my opnion. That doesn't go over very well with me at all. Not at all.

 

 

I hope the laws go ahead and protect our rights to spend our money where we damn well chose. To do otherwise sets a very bad precedence for our future. :smileyhappy:

 

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patgolfneb
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

I am not saying I agree, just what the current law is. In general business has aggressively lobbied for laws protecting business and business owned intellectual property. I find it odd that people who mod their devices assume the law is in their favor, that some basic right is involved. Clearly the body of law does not support this at this time. How we feel about it doesn't make it so.
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5ivedom
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

Compulsive reader, I agree 100% with this:

 

I think the only reason this is now a problem is that many of these device manufacturers are attempting to enforce a walled garden environment in which competition can be deleted from the equation. Modifications now circumvent this "monopoly" on the consumers pocketbook and that is the ONLY reason it is now considered such a "problem" that should be made illegal. The only theft going on is a sale that might go to someone else who provides better service or product and that should not be, nor ever be illegal in my opnion. That doesn't go over very well with me at all. Not at all.

 

*****

 

Historically, if you look at laws. They most often helped create monopolies and unfair advantages.

 

I agree 100% that anyone 'buying' books without paying is doing illegal stuff.

 

However, modifying a device you buy should be OK for legitimate purposes.

 

*****

 

I think we're in a day and age where companies are using lobbyists to get a lot of laws put in place that are completely illegal and a violation of our rights.

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compulsivereaderTX
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

[ Edited ]
I can not think of a single item or piece of work that can not be customied, altered or even destroyed by the purchaser. And then sold by said purchaser as long as the seller is upfront that it is not an original or try to pass it off as an original. Example: cars, dolls, altered art, etc. I've taken barbies, modified them and sold them for hundreds of dollars at the same doll show, across the aisle from the Mattel booth. And had them complimentmy work. As long asi don' t use their name, try to pass it off as a mattel product or pretend that I created the barbie I uses, my ass is covered. So, basically, I have every reason to believe I have the right to modify my device for my own personal use.
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patgolfneb
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

Compulsiveread, you are failing to make the distinction between physical and intellectual property. If you were to modify a computer program and resell it that is clearly illegal. Others could hire you to modify the program, but modifying clearly is restricted. There are gray areas, extensions that don't modify the core program, usually OK. Even reselling your modified dolls, key here reselling, could violate a trademark. It is just not as clear cut as you believe.

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compulsivereaderTX
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

Let me qualify what I just said...as long as the alterations/modifications are not done to promote, condone or enable the piece as a device created for illegal purposes such as theft violence, etc.
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compulsivereaderTX
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

No, I am clearly okay with mattel because I am VERY careful to not violate their trademark. Believe me, Mattel is exrremely protective of their trademark and would have shut me down the second I violated it.
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compulsivereaderTX
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Re: Will BN ever crack down on CN mod? Could it?

My nooks design is intellectual property. The right to manufactur the device is part if that intellectual property rights and does not transfer to whoever purchases the device. Same as the software. But I can do anything to my physical copy as long as I do not violate trademarks or the copyright. Trademarks and copyrights are not as all encompassing as you think but define specific use of the work.