Tablet Hardware - Amazing; B&N Decisionmaking - Not So Much

[roustabout]

on Kobo:

"Does the BN Store on the NT/NC have the Kobo app?

If not, why not?

B&N bought the assets of Borders when they went out of business "

I wondered if BN would simply transfer the licenses from Kobo to their own library (where the publishers permit) for the folks whose accounts they've bought.  

But then I realized that Kobo still sells an e-reader, and I don't actually know what-all BN bought., in terms of the legal rights to transfer licenses.   I think Borders was a Kobo reseller rather than an ebook vendor truly in its own right.  

[Marseilles]

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liquidzoo wrote:

This brings a question to my mind...

Does the BN Store on the NT/NC have the Kobo app?

If not, why not?

B&N bought the assets of Borders when they went out of business...  This would basically be saying that they're not even supporting their own business...

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I can't remember if Kobo spun off or not, but regardless, B&N bought ereader.com/fictionwise, and the ereader android app isn't in their store either.  Nor have they offered to import my ereader library to B&N since ereader.com got leveled by agency pricing, which would go a long ways to securing me as a B&N ebook customer.

[LarryOnLI]

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liquidzoo wrote:

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Marseilles wrote:

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PeterDe wrote:

To everyone who keeps pointing to the Apple app store as an example of a closed environment that is no different then BN's attempt at the same thing, I have one question, if Apple is are as restrictive as you say why do they allow their competitors book reading apps on their store and BN and Amazon does not? (And yes,  Apple does sell books.)

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Amazon does allow competitor book reading apps in their store.  See Kobo (formerly border's ereader).  To a lesser extent, there's also Aldiko (which can read any adobe drm'd books) and a gutenburg portal/reader.  I imagine other stores simply haven't tried to get their reader listed.  Though I am wary that Amazon could become anticompetitive in their app store, there's no current evidence that they have done so.

The remainder of your point is well made.  According to others here, the economic superpower that is Apple must not understand economics.

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This brings a question to my mind...

Does the BN Store on the NT/NC have the Kobo app?

If not, why not?

B&N bought the assets of Borders when they went out of business...  This would basically be saying that they're not even supporting their own business...

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I've seen this incorrect assertion repeated many times on this board.

B&N did NOT buy Borders when it went out of business.

B&N did buy the Borders customer mailing list so they could target former Boarders costumers to "come to the dark side" as it were.

[liquidzoo]

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I've seen this incorrect assertion repeated many times on this board.

B&N did NOT buy Borders when it went out of business.

B&N did buy the Borders customer mailing list so they could target former Boarders costumers to "come to the dark side" as it were.

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I was incorrect about Kobo, I admit that.

But I did not say that BN bought Borders...

I said that BN bought the assets of Borders (all domestic trademarks, websites, customer lists)

So it makes sense that the Kobo app isn't on the BN store.

[TnTexas]

JohnF76: As far as the Kindle app, well, why not ask XDA to REALLY fix/enhance the B&N app? If you provide a better experience using the B&N app, why would you use Kindle?

Because between the two, some books can't be found at B&N but they can at Amazon.

[DeanGibson Distinguished Bibliophile]

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moose_tracker wrote:

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Schwa wrote:

It does not surprise me one bit that the top 3 tablet success stories this holiay season (iPad, Fire, Nook) are all tied to locked down (read: focused) user experiences, and the standard Android devices are languishing without any focus.

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I wouldn't say that, I have figured out what I am replacing my two returned Nooks for, and Acer Iconia Tablet a100 7".. Same price of $250.. It will need to be an after christmas purchase since no local stores have them in stock (and they are sold out of every on-line store unless you want to pay $350 or up for it..  I will wait till the stores that sell them for $250 re-stock.

Thing is they are just quietly selling their product with none of this bull... 

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A friend of mine who (like me) bought an NC last spring, sold his a few months ago and bought an Acer A500 tablet at Costco for $350.  I followed his lead a month ago, except that I kept my NC (and added an NT) for battery life reasons.  The A500 has a brighter screen than the NT or NC, and comes with a cover.  The cover is OK, but not as nice as those for the NT/NC, but hey, it's included (that helps change the price comparison).  However, the A500 als has a host USB port (in addition to the slave one that is typical on these devices, like on the Nooks), so using an external keyboard is easy.  Then there's HDMI out, BlueTooth, GPS, etc.

Costco is now also completely sold out of the Acer A500 tablet (they still have the Samsung tablets).  Note that B&N is not sold out of Nook Tablets.

The point is, all this "talk" about what the NT should be, and whether our precious Constitutional rights have been violated (this is my take on this thread), is comical at best and counter-productive (like the "let's petition B&N" threads) at worst.  Unlike nine months ago, there are way too many alternatives in the marketplace today, to (in my opinion) waste any time complaining about the NT, let alone petitioning B&N.  It is what it is, and B&N is what it is.  No one has been made a "promise" (or obligation, etc) that the following B&N policy won't completely cure:

Every purchaser of a Nook Tablet is within the "B&N Christmas return/refund policy" window, and will be for more than another month.

[HumbleCorrespo…]

One thing that everyone seems to be overlooking is that (if what's been discussed on these boards the past year is true) B&N does not push incremental updates. They push a complete new version of the software.  Therefore, you cannot block one update and accept another, thereby bypassing what was in the first update.  If you take the second update, you get what was in the first update, unless that functionality was rescinded (the infamous cookbook for example). So, if you don't want that first update, you probably will not get any others either.

As Dean Gibson has pointed out on more than one occasion, B&N is not a software company.  If you've seen how the various updates have gone, you'll realize that B&N is probably not capable of managing multiple versions of the software on the same device.  So, if they were going to block the side-loading of apps on future devices, then it should be no surprise that they blocked it for existing devices too.

Also, if they are pushing the full version of the software at update time, then there is no guarantee that an update would not break "unauthorized" side-loaded apps, since they have no idea what may be there, and no way to take that into account.  Imagine the outcry if that happened.  This is especially possible since they run a modified Android OS, not a native one.  If you are doubtful, there are B&N App Store apps that have ceased to work, whether fully or partially, after an update.

Finally, app side-loading was not an advertised, offered, delivered feature.  It was a bug.  You may have liked the bug in this case, but it was a bug none the less.  When it was discovered, B&N admitted publicly that it was such, and gave every indication that it would be "fixed".  So, it is a little surprising that anyone is surprised by this.

Now I am not saying B&N did the right or wrong thing here.  I am not saying you should not be annoyed, upset, or disappointed if this affects you.  I'm merely giving a summary of the facts as I understand them, and I am attempting to give a little perspective.

[DeanGibson Distinguished Bibliophile]

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Omnigeek wrote:

...  The term "hacker" has a helluva lot older roots than people who took the Linux kernel apart and applies to more than just software. 

DeanGibson is one such hacker who seeks to find out how things work just because the knowing itself is neat.

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The term hacker comes from the use of a machete to navigate through the jungle, and refers to a blunt-force approach to solving a technical problem.  Tthe term was originally used to refer to those that attempted to breach the AT&T telephone system (albeit cleverness was/is a big part of hacking).

In my mind, "hacker" is the exact opposite of "engineer".

I have a MS in Computer Science, and was a software engineer for 40+ years, not a hacker.  However, as a youth I was insanely curious about how things worked, and often took them apart (and usually got them back together again in a functional manner).  These days I'm much more functionally motivated, and the world has gotten way too complex to try to figure everything out anyway.  My main curiosity these days is usually limited to making sure that I don't make dumb mistakes.

The repartitioning scripts I did for the NC, was the result of over 25 years of experience in working with FDISK in the PC and Linux worlds.

[mohawkx]

I was sorely disappointed with the fact that the B&N upgrade to 1.4.1 would plug the sideloading hole in the NT. Frankly, I felt cheated. In the buying process, I compared the specs and capabilities of the various 7" devices side by side. The clincher for me was the fact that you could sideload apps without rooting the device and the superior hardware of the NT. When I made my decision and purchased the NT that's what I got. A 7" color ereader with limited tablet capabilites but great specs and possibilites. When the "FORCED" update was implimented I really felt burned by B&N and my immediate gut response was to return the NT for a refund and buy a refurbished nook color with a N2A card. But after seeing the good folks at XDA furiously working on the necessary hacks to the NT, I've decided to wait it out for a while and see what develops in the near future.
In all honesty, I have more faith that the developer community can maximize the superior hardware of the NT platform better than B&N can plug the holes in it. At least they have approx 40 days to do so before I need to return the NT for a full refund. (Jan 31st return deadline)

Have faith, and be patient. The gurus and experts are working on it as we speak. If things go well we'll end up with a killer 7" Android Tablet.

If things don't go so well, then when tens of thousands of NTs start getting returned to B&N the last week in January, I'm sure B&N will see the connection and get the message.

[F14Scott]

From a post on the XDA site:

"This update doesn't even comply with the B&N Terms of Service for the Nook Tablet.

The first paragraph says:

1. Using Your NOOK. 

(a) Your NOOK, the Service and Digital Content. Your NOOK is an electronic device that is designed to allow you to read digitized electronic content such as eBooks and digital periodicals ("Digital Content"). Your NOOK is also designed to connect wirelessly to the Internet to enable you to browse, preview, search for, purchase and download Digital Content; access the Barnes & Noble.com Web Site (the "Web Site") and other web sites; interface with social networking sites; and access, use, and participate in other services, features, functions and promotions (all features described in this sentence, collectively, the "Service"). Your NOOK also allows you to load and access your own content onto the device for your personal use ("Sideloaded Content"). 

The TOS gives you explicit permission to load your own Content.

Wouldn't 3rd party apps be considered content as well?"

I have to say, I agree with this train of thought.  "Content" is not narrowly defined in the TOS.  Removing the ability to use one's own content (specifically, apps) seems to be a breach of contract.

I haven't returned my NTs, yet, but that's only because I have until 31 January to return them, if B&N doesn't pull its head out and come up with a better plan.

[flyingtoastr Scribe]

Given that XDA has spent the last year screaming that an EULA isn't binding anyway I find this very ironic.

[F14Scott]

Perhaps the expectation for the corporation to abide by its own TOS precludes a user's desire to abide by it.

[indirect]

Technically speaking as it isnt in the ToS specifically, sideloaded content can include an -entire- OS. Why not allow it? Because they are scared. It's that simple. They have no faith in develpers or the goodness of the community as a whole. I would happily still support the nook tablets sales and buy from B&N.

[flyingtoastr Scribe]

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indirect wrote:

Technically speaking as it isnt in the ToS specifically, sideloaded content can include an -entire- OS. Why not allow it? Because they are scared. It's that simple. They have no faith in develpers or the goodness of the community as a whole. I would happily still support the nook tablets sales and buy from B&N.

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No, it all comes down to money.

BN sells Tablets at a loss (trust me, they are). They are assuming that they'll make it up in content sales. A rooted NOOK has the strong potential to decrease or even eliminate any sales BN would have been getting with a normal device. 

When a large number of rooters run amok in BN's own forum flaunting how they love to buy books from Amazon on the device that BN took a loss to sell them, they are going to take action. BN doesn't see buying a NOOK Tablet and then never buying any content as "support". You're costing them even more money than if that device had sold to someone else who didn't root it.

BN is not going to unlock the bootloader on the Tablet because a bunch of people spammed their forums that they're going to return the device that BN sold them at a loss. The best hope for the future is that BN will just sell unlocked versions of their devices at production/markup costs similar to other Tablet companies (somewhere in the range of $350 for the NT) with no warranty or support and the rooters can go have their fun without all this.

[Reisnice]

I don't like plugging the sideloading hole either, although I can see their developers' desire to do that. I did run out immediately and download anything I thought I'd be interested in. But I think their IT staff made a risky business decision, beyond how many owners might return them. I intentionally only bought my NT BECAUSE I believed it could be rooted or sideloaded. I passed up Borders' products because of the risk of them going under, and they had 3rd party hardware. If I bought a device that could only be used with the BN store, and, heaven forbid, BN follows Borders, I would end up with a mostly useless hunk of plastic and glass (or an expensive library book reader.) The ability to at least be able to get some use out of it after that was a good enough insurance policy to take a $275 gamble on BN staying in business. Taking away my 'insurance' skews my decision point quite a bit - possibly to another product by a less risky company. I'm not giving my NT up any time soon, but, if I were in the market now, I might make a different decision, or wait a little longer. Unfortunately, returned products are easy to count. Products that were never bought - not so much.

[geatdanemomDT]

Reisnice

  Just one thing, you are not locked into buying books from just B&N, any ebook sellers, and there are many of them, that sell epub versions and/or pdfs will sideload to your nook. But maybe you were referring to apps mainly.

[TnTexas]

flyingtoastr: When a large number of rooters run amok in BN's own forum flaunting how they love to buy books from Amazon on the device that BN took a loss to sell them, they are going to take action. BN doesn't see buying a NOOK Tablet and then never buying any content as "support". You're costing them even more money than if that device had sold to someone else who didn't root it.

I think your point is a valid one. Just keep in mind that amongst the number of those who talk about using the Kindle app on the NC or Tablet are some who only buy books from Amazon when they can't find them at B&N. Not all of them are buying a Tablet or NC and then doing all their shopping at the competition.

[Nom-de-Nook]

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flyingtoastr wrote:

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No, it all comes down to money.

BN sells Tablets at a loss (trust me, they are).

Show us the proof, your saying it doesn't make it so, there is no way it cost $50 more to make the NT than the Fire.  Show us a tear down like we have for the Fire and then you can keep making that claim.

They are assuming that they'll make it up in content sales. A rooted NOOK has the strong potential to decrease or even eliminate any sales BN would have been getting with a normal device. 

When a large number of rooters run amok in BN's own forum flaunting how they love to buy books from Amazon on the device that BN took a loss to sell them, they are going to take action. BN doesn't see buying a NOOK Tablet and then never buying any content as "support". You're costing them even more money than if that device had sold to someone else who didn't root it.

BN is not going to unlock the bootloader on the Tablet because a bunch of people spammed their forums that they're going to return the device that BN sold them at a loss. The best hope for the future is that BN will just sell unlocked versions of their devices at production/markup costs similar to other Tablet companies (somewhere in the range of $350 for the NT) with no warranty or support and the rooters can go have their fun without all this.

$350, you must be smoking something.  You can get a 10" tablet with better specs and full Android Market for that much such as the Acer A500.  That is one of the other Tablet companies you are talking about.  The market (other than Samsung who thinks they can charge Apple type prices) for a 7" Android tablet is well under $300 and more like $250.  If BN can't put out a tablet and make money at those prices then they have no business being in the device business. 

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[flyingtoastr Scribe]

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Nom-de-Nook wrote:

 Show us the proof, your saying it doesn't make it so, there is no way it cost $50 more to make the NT than the Fire.  Show us a tear down like we have for the Fire and then you can keep making that claim.

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Usa su cabeza.

Not only does the NOOK Tablet have a host of components that a Fire does not (better screen, more RAM, SD Card Slot, completely unique physical board design), but the margins of the device also have to take into account other costs not related to physical production, such as paying for the brick and mortar stores and the massive shipping charges BN is acruing to keep the things in stock right now. And of course you need to add an actual profit margin, as I'm pretty sure BN wants to make some money off the device if they're never going to see a cent because of how "terrible" everything is from BN.

So yeah, $350 is probably around where I would price a completely unlocked NOOK Tablet.

You're also conviently forgetting that the A500 launched at $450, and is only discounted now becuase no one wanted one.

[Nom-de-Nook]

Even at $450 an open 10" Acer 500 would be a better value than a $350 7" device like the NT.  You want to talk extra components?  The A500 has more features, 2 cameras, GPS, bluetooth...and it is/was sold in retail store who also have to make margin on their bricks and mortar.

Nope, sorry, a $350 NT would be dead on arrival open or not since it has no cameras, GPS, bluetooth, etc.  No way an open NT is worth anywhere near what you would price it for given its relative lack of hardware.

But I hope BN is able to continue selling the NT since I still buy ebooks from them