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DeanGibson
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Registered: ‎04-12-2011

Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

[ Edited ]

Notice that the XDA-devs thread about unlocking the NT bootloader, has been locked by the moderators over there (due in part to requests from members), due to off-topic bickering about the GPL.  Too bad, because that thread has been a good source of information about bootloader technical issues for two months.  Sigh.  Never fear, the protagonists will find another thread to attach themselves to.

 

Too bad the moderators here don't do the same regarding similar off-topic bickering that goes on here for far longer (and in much greater volume) than over on the XDA-devs forums.  If the moderators here don't start intervening more aggressively, these forums will become virtually useless for B&N's own purposes (eg, Nook support and the useful exchange of related ideas).

 

Too bad many members here won't stop it as well.  The same "cause and effect" comment above applies here as well, and the phrase "you don't know when to stop" comes to mind.  Laurels used to be given for people that helped other people.  Now, they seem to be given as "I agree with you against your detractor".  Whoopee.  Look at the "Top Laurels" counts (both members and topic) at the right side of every forum.  How many of those are about helping people (and I don't mean helping people see your viewpoint or join your cause)?

 

It used to be that "the American dream" was about taking advantage of the economic and educational opportunities here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream  Now, it seems that "the American dream" is whining about legal rights, entitlement, definitions of words, and (in some cases) putting down those whom you disagree with.

 

2 Nook HD/8GB + 2 Nook HD+/16GB: B&N 2.2.0 rooted
2 Nook Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1
2 Nook 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted.; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted;
Nook Color: B&N 1.4.3 rooted; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 (7.0"): Android 4.2.2 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
Never suspect intent where incompetence will do.
BN_AlexG
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Registered: ‎09-19-2011

Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

Well said Dean.

 

My apologies for not doing the same when needed. I've refrained from policing these threads myself, because conversations in that vein I believe are and can be constructive.

 

But, I have also seen what you and others have noticed. This forum was not intended to be a place to vent frustrations against B&N and was intended for fruitful conversation/support.

 

To that end I have failed, and apologize to all of you. I'll be making a stronger effort to limit those unnecessary activities from here on out.

 

- Alex

Click the Laurel leaf to say thank you for helpful posts. And be sure to come back to click the 'Accept as Solution' button for the post that solved your issue. This may help someone else.
Inspired Correspondent
Nom-de-Nook
Posts: 956
Registered: ‎08-06-2010

Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

Alex,

 

It is a difficult job to balance "free and open" discussion which might benefit all current and prospective owners (and whether or not some folks like it, pointing out the flaws is constructive, but yes, harping on them is not) and recycling the same criticisms again and again and again...

 

That said, you should use your best judgment on how to "police" the boards and not feel pressured either way (make it more open or shut some down).  Either way, that is why BN pays you the big bucks :smileyhappy:

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gb18
Posts: 746
Registered: ‎12-06-2010

Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

Do what you have to do, but this has been fun to watch!

Freedom is not free.
DeanGibson
Posts: 2,121
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Registered: ‎04-12-2011

Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

[ Edited ]

While my comments in another thread about needing a "Nook Therapy" section were satirical in nature, I think the idea of moving lengthy off-topic threads to an "off-topic" area has merit.  It eliminates the "battle cry" of "censorship" (which it isn't), and gives clear notice to viewers that the content is a lengthly off-topic discussion.

 

I don't know all the capabilities of this forum software, but the software I use on my forums (phpBB) has the ability to split a thread, and then move part of that thread to another section.  You could split it with the comment "Subsequent posts to this thread were mostly off-topic, and were moved to the 'Nook Therapy' (or whatever) section."

 

Splitting threads is bit more work, but I think once you do it a few times, the message will get through.  Some people like an audience (including me), but once the expected audience diminishes, so (I think) will much of the bickering.

 

Some forum software also locks threads where the last post is over three (or six) months old.  That keeps threads from being resurrected, that have mercifully died a slow death.

 

2 Nook HD/8GB + 2 Nook HD+/16GB: B&N 2.2.0 rooted
2 Nook Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1
2 Nook 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted.; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted;
Nook Color: B&N 1.4.3 rooted; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 (7.0"): Android 4.2.2 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
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patgolfneb
Posts: 1,720
Registered: ‎09-10-2011

Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

I suspect a lot of us are used to being the early adopter and having our opinions sought by others in our circles. We become frustrated when our points of views are dissed. Or maybe its just me?
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phoneboy
Posts: 1,904
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Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

"Change the Channel" comes to mind whenever this topic comes up.

 

:smileywink:

Don 't interfere with somethin' that ain't bothering you none. ~Unknown
DeanGibson
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Registered: ‎04-12-2011

Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs


phoneboy wrote:

"Change the Channel" comes to mind whenever this topic comes up.


There are two problems with that:

 

  1. There is so much posting of off-topic messages, that useful threads that don't get very frequent replies, quickly scroll to the second or third pages, and can be missed unless people check the forums several times a day.  Once a topic scrolls, few people make the effort to scroll to a second page to read.  Often (especially new users looking for solutions), they just start a new thread, which just exacerbates the problem.
  2. Skipping reading a thread that starts out obviously off-topic is easy;  reading a thread that starts out useful and then degenerates into bickering is tiresome, trying to find out if the thread will come back on target.

 

2 Nook HD/8GB + 2 Nook HD+/16GB: B&N 2.2.0 rooted
2 Nook Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1
2 Nook 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted.; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted;
Nook Color: B&N 1.4.3 rooted; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 (7.0"): Android 4.2.2 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
Never suspect intent where incompetence will do.
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roustabout
Posts: 3,574
Registered: ‎03-31-2011

Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

[ Edited ]

Once a thread degenerates into partisan squabbling that needs to be locked, with posts being laureled up just to advance one or another side, perhaps all laurels from all posts in that thread should be removed.  

 

That would probably only need to happen twice to get folks' attention.  

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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phoneboy
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Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

This is a tuff 1 cause I agree that some of the arguement threads do clutter up the 1st page BUT if forum members are posting then I guess thats the thread they want to particpate in. Just cause some dont like the negative vib does not give them the right to lock or delete the thread.

 

Its not just the trolls and the flamers that participate in the Neg threads.

 

"Don't like gay marriages? Don't get one. . . . . Don't like cigarettes?  Don't smoke them. . . Don't like abortions? Don't get one. . . . .  Don't like sex? Don't have it. . . . .  Don't like drugs? Don't do them. . . .  Don't like porn? Don't watch it. . . .  Don't like alcohol? Don't drink it. . . .  Don't like guns? Don't buy one. . . . .Don't like negative threads on a forum? Don't read/post in them.... 

Don't like your rights taken away??? Don't take away someone else's."


Its not just the trolls and the flamers that participate in the Neg threads.

 

As always JMHO

 

:smileyhappy:


 

 

Don 't interfere with somethin' that ain't bothering you none. ~Unknown
DeanGibson
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Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

[ Edited ]

phoneboy wrote:... 

Don't like your rights taken away??? Don't take away someone else's."

 


You appear to have a fundamental assumption (which is false) that anyone except B&N has any rights here.  Read http://www.barnesandnoble.com/include/terms_of_use.asp?z=y  You have a (revocable) license to use the forums here, nothing else:

 

Barnes & Noble.com grants the User a limited, nonexclusive, revocable license to access ...

 

Not only does no one except B&N have any rights here, and B&N has no obligation even to treat forum users equally or fairly.  They may decide to do so, but for business reasons, not "fairness" or any concept of "rights".  The XDA-devs message board is even more restricted and subject to thread locking, because they don't really have to care what anyone thinks of them.

 

Barnes & Noble.com reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to reject, refuse to post or remove any posting or other User Created Content (including private messages) by you, or to deny, restrict, suspend, or terminate access to all or any part of the Interactive Community services at any time, for any or no reason, with or without prior notice or explanation, and without liability.

 

"Free speech" is a restriction on the government, and does not apply to private interactions, whether it be in the workplace or online.

 

2 Nook HD/8GB + 2 Nook HD+/16GB: B&N 2.2.0 rooted
2 Nook Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1
2 Nook 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted.; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted;
Nook Color: B&N 1.4.3 rooted; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 (7.0"): Android 4.2.2 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
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patgolfneb
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Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

It's really not about rights it's about judgment. Rather who's judgment is exercised. I don't envy Alex or BN. When posts degenerate to competitions about who is the smartest one in the room or on the forum, where do you draw the line? Allowing posters to exercise their wit is worthwhile as is healthy exchanges of ideas. When a person or group starts campaigning and facts and mutual benefits become less important than getting your way (winning) we are abusing BN hospitality. I feel Alex and BN have been generous and acted when left no choice. It might be a good idea to look at forum activity on Fridays. There are more members and guests and more posts than any other day. Most of them by people interested in the literary reviews and free Fridays books. When we get all worked up about sideloading or other issues that might restore a little humility.
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sisquack
Posts: 11
Registered: ‎01-11-2012

Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

[ Edited ]

"This forum was not intended to be a place to vent frustrations against B&N and was intended for fruitful conversation/support."

 

While I agree that the topics in the recently locked threads where getting ridiculously off track. What concerns me about this statement is that it basically says there can be no fruitful discussion possible if it involved a subject matter that B&N doesn't like. It's a common problem with web forums that the moderator doesn't know the difference between "moderating" and being power drunk.


I'm not accusing you of this, I'm just saying that it can easily look that way if done without tact and preferably, an explanation.

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phoneboy
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Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

If someone is attacking an individual, following from thread to thread posting neg things about the individual then by all means, warn em then ban them if they continue.

 

Even Ideas that we dissagree with should be allowed. Or lets be fair and lock all the "Nook color/tablet is the greatest device ever" threads too (be kinda fishey if B&N only baned the long threads that speak negativly of there device.)

 

Example. I don't think B&N has ripped anyone off by closing the sideload ability. I have posted strongly that the people that do should stop bringing it into every thread that comes close to the topic. That's just my opinion. They are voicing theirs. They feel they want to be heard. As long as they don't get to personnel they should be allowed to do it.

 

The "Rights" was just part of the quote . I stick with my 1st post in this thread "Change the channel if you don't wanna watch"

 

Why should Alex have to try and decide what threads should be locked?

 

Hell this 1 should be locked since its turned into a disagreement that has been beaten to death on this site.  Right?

 

 

:smileyhappy:

 

 

Don 't interfere with somethin' that ain't bothering you none. ~Unknown
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patgolfneb
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Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

Phoneboy, it's a shared TV and some were making every channel show the same program.
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phoneboy
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Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs


patgolfneb wrote:
Phoneboy, it's a shared TV and some were making every channel show the same program.

Yeah I get that( i.e. all the B&N ripped me off rants)

 

Just like TV there are sev channels to surf. if you stop on 1 and its not to your liking you can move on til you find 1 you like.

 

I have been here over a year and I dont recall ever having the whole 1st page of any sub forum(NC general, NC support etc etc) being about the same topic. Well except maybe a month or so the 1st time the nook color was rooted...lol

 

What I have seen is members responding over n over to these rants with rants of their own (I'm guilty) who is right, who should get to continure the thread, who decides and what is the line that has to be crossed. 

 

Maybe if people stopped LOOKING for these threads or responding to the negative posts it would not be an issue.

 

Move along people, nothing to see here 

 

As always...JMHO

 

:smileyhappy:

 

 

Don 't interfere with somethin' that ain't bothering you none. ~Unknown
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Omnigeek
Posts: 878
Registered: ‎01-25-2011

Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

phoneboy, there are so many things wrong with your conception of rights and responsibilities that it's hard to know where to begin -- but I'll try.  Unlike the airwaves, this forum is not a public resource, B&N has no obligation to let you say whatever you want -- this is the reverse of the situation with cable or encrypted satellite TV where the government can't restrict what they say or show because the content isn't accessible to John Q. Public without going to some special effort.

 

B&N is therefore under no obligation to allow someone to use their resources and private "space" to say whatever they want.  Said person is not being censored -- they are free to create their own domain and forum space and pronounce their opinions to the world.  B&N's customers shouldn't have to "change the channel" to get away from "talk" solely aimed at raising a ruckus and disparaging the host.  It would be like me coming into your restaurant, grabbing a seat and then loudly complaining that you used inferior ingredients and lousy cooking techniques and that you shouldn't keep me from bringing my own bottles of rotgut in to drink because I don't like the selection from your wine menu.  If I did that, you would have every right to refuse me service again.

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sisquack
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Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

I decided to return my NT today. Got the money back and will probably wait for the iPad 3.


It's too bad, it was a Christmas's present and the hardware was great. I was really enjoying it. But the way B&N tried to force me to buy everything for the device from them, was just rediculous.It made this great hardware pointless.


Just glad my wife understands.

flyingtoastr
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Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs


sisquack wrote:

I decided to return my NT today. Got the money back and will probably wait for the iPad 3.


It's too bad, it was a Christmas's present and the hardware was great. I was really enjoying it. But the way B&N tried to force me to buy everything for the device from them, was just rediculous.It made this great hardware pointless.


Just glad my wife understands.



sisquack wrote:

Got the money back and will probably wait for the iPad 3.


It's too bad, it was a Christmas's present and the hardware was great. I was really enjoying it. But the way B&N tried to force me to buy everything for the device from them, was just rediculous.It made this great hardware pointless.



sisquack wrote:

Got the money back and will probably wait for the iPad 3.


...force me to buy everything for the device from them, was just rediculous.


/boggle

 

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roustabout
Posts: 3,574
Registered: ‎03-31-2011

Re: Deja vu all over again: bickering on XDA-devs

It's true any software on an ipad is going to come through Apple. It's also true that there's such a huge diversity of good software for it that it's very easy to forget that.  The itunes store doesn't feel to me like buying from Apple in the way browsing the BN app store feels like buying from BN.

 

Then there's the diversity of media and reading options for the iPad.  These can be either purchased from Apple or sideloaded as with the NT or NC.  (I'm constantly sideloading things for my mom from her music libary - an exercise which doesn't fill up her ipad as fast as it would an NT without and SD card, since although doing it pretty much obliges you to use itunes, itunes exists and doesn't limit you to writing to a small fraction of the available space, though it does impose very annoying silos on what apps can see what you loaded.)

 

I think that the Nook and Kindle apps on the iPad are free, it's just that you can't purchase content inside them.  but even if they cost a few bucks apiece, the platform would still feel a lot more open because it is open to apps in a way that nook devices are not. 

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.