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roustabout
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

[ Edited ]

I think part of what's happening is that BN didn't want to commit staff time to another quixotic attempt at keeping the tide from rising, and part of it is that they realized that Julie is not going to set up ADB on her laptop to install software.  (The mythical customer was named Julie, right?)

 

I expect that they get a LOT fewer returned devices from folks who modify their devices than from Julies, also - most of these thngs really don't break per se, and the more effort you have in setting something up, the less likely you are to return it and the more likely you are to be able to fix it yourself. 

 

As far as sideloading and rooting:  getting ADB set up to see the HD+ is harder than it's been for other devices I've used.  And you have to have ADB going before you can sideload;  my memory is that on the tablet, you could do software installs at launch without even setting up ADB.  Once ADB is running, rooting is pretty simple, getting other appstores going is apparently easy to get wrong - and if you do get something wrong, the device does a full format. 

 

I got things wrong a few times as I was looking at the process, and that too would be a significant hurdle to a lot of folks.  Last night, I was seeing that there are folks on XDA triggering reformats after doing database edits on the device, though none of us know why. 

 

As far as FT goes, I think people should give him a break.  Yes, he and BN ruffled a lot of folks' feathers a year ago;  the folks from XDA didn't exactly do themselves any favors. And it seems that XDA may still be holding a grudge against BN - one of the XDA mods shut down one of the HD discussion threads that was happening in the nook color forums before XDA had chosen to set up an HD forum. 

 

There's no forum despite the fact that at least three of the folks who've been key in working on the NC and NT are actively interested and that the HD devices have been booted into Cyanogen succesfully.  (I think more than that, but I have to admit that I tuned out of the LCD nook discussions on XDA once they went septic last year.) 

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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Wulfraed
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

[ Edited ]
One should probably give some allowance for the fact that the Andoid Debug Bridge is the means by which a developer would load something they've written for testing before submitting it to the shop. So, yes, ADB information will be rather obscure to the common user. (Reminds me... I still need to sign up for the developer package; there are a few programs on my ancient PDA that I've not seen equivalents for). Oh, and per the documentation, these ADB loaded apps still need a slow combination to access -- hold volume+ button and touch the "Apps"heading on the apps display tobring up an "Extras" page.
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DeanGibson
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If I had it to do again ...

[ Edited ]

bobstro wrote:

roustabout wrote:

You can sideload apps to the hd+ without rooting, and this is a feature documented for the device. It is not as easy as using an appstore, but works well if you want to set it up.

https://nookdeveloper.zendesk.com/entries/21846516-quick-start-for-android-developers


Wait... seriously? So all those arguments about how allowing sideloaded content to our OTHER NOOK devices would be the downfall of B&N have fallen away now? Or is this going to be a repeat of the NT experience?

 


The issue is not the universal availability of ADBD on the Nook devices;  the issue is getting to ADBD:

 

  • On the Nook 1stEd, you repeatedly access a specially-designed web page that causes the browser to crash.  Sometimes, that will enable ADBD.  If you find ADBD enabled, you quickly download and run a program that gives you root (via another Android bug/hole), and then (if that's successful), you quickly edit a file that gives you permanent ADB access.  If that sequence fails because you weren't quick enough, you reboot the device and start over.  Due to retries, this process can take from 15 minutes to three hours (that's from my personal experience).
  • On the Nook Color, Touch, and Glow, you insert a specially-designed bootable SDcard that gives you access to the file systems on the internal storage, from which you can easily enable root (which then gives you ADB access).
  • On the Nook Tablet, you have two choices: #1 (early solution) you must first revert to B&N v1.4.0, then attempt to install any app via the browser, and in that process, enable ADBD, and then you download and run a program that gives you root (via another Android bug/hole), and then you edit a file that gives you permanent ADB access;  or  #2 (later solution) you can use a specially-designed bootable SDcard that circumvents the locked bootloader scheme to give access to the file systems on the internal storage, from which you can easily enable root (which then gives you ADB access).
  • I haven't looked at the details for enabling ADB access on the Nook HD/HD+, because I'm not going there.

 

Yep, all it takes is to enable ADB access ...

 

To be fair, you have to go through similar shenanigans on other Android devices in order to root them, but there's one catch:  you don't need to root to get ADB access, and that's assuming you even want/need it.  Getting ADB access is just a user-visible configuration setting.  That's the same user-visible configuration setting that was in v1.4.0 of the Nook Tablet, before B&N closed that hole.

 

What I don't understand is, what is all the fighting about?  For me:

 

  1. You do research ahead of time, and select the device that best meets your wants/needs.
  2. If the device needs some "tweaking" to do what you want/need, you research that as well.
  3. Then you buy the device, tweak it, and use it.
  4. As new products become available or your needs change, you repeat the process.

If I had it to do all over again:

 

  1. I would buy the Nook Color (as I did).
  2. I would skip the Nook Tablet.  I bought the Acer A500 10" tablet at the same time, and I thought I would use the Nook Tablet as a backup.  However, I ended up rarely using the Nook, and it turned out to be more trouble than it was worth.  The A500 does everything I need, without much fuss.
  3. I would buy a used Nook 1stEd w/ 3G (as I did), root it, add a few apps, and use it as a backup instead.  Too bad the battery life is not better.
  4. I would buy a Nook Touch at a bargain price and experiement with it.  Wonderful battery life.
  5. My next tablet will be a larger Android-capable (preferably color) e-Ink device with excellent battery life.  Could be from B&N.

Nevertheless, being retired, I have the time, and so for me the journey was fun and educational.

Nooks: 2 HD+/16GB & 2 HD/8GB: B&N 2.2.0 (Android 4.0.4) rooted;
    2 Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted
Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 7.0": Android 4.2.2 rooted
LG G3 & G Pad 8.3 Android 4.4.2 rooted; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
Never suspect intent where incompetence will do.
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roustabout
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Re: If I had it to do again ...

[ Edited ]
On the hd devices, adb is enabled via development settings as normal for android. The challenge is getting the host computer to see the device; in addition to a fairly involved driver install, adb_usb.ini must be set. The process is more involved than on many devices on the computer end, and installing adb is itself enough work that relatively few folks do it.
"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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TnTexas
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

This ADB thing has always been available for developers; hasn't it? If so, I'm not sure there's really been a change on B&N's part. People willing to go through the same hoops developers go through for testing their apps on the device can use the process to sideload apps. Those who either can't do it because the process makes no sense to them or aren't interested in jumping through the hoops still can't sideload 3rd party apps to the devices. Right? How is that different from how it's been since the "bug fix" for the Tablet?

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bobstro
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

My understanding is that is no longer necessary to root to enable ADB. I won't own one of the new B&N devices, but it sounds like they try to do a Mission Impossible-like system wipe and reset if they detect system changes such as rooting (still obnoxious, mind you), but don't do so if apps are side loaded via ADB. Have I got that right, Roustabout?
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roustabout
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

[ Edited ]

On the nook color and nook tablet, to install software on unmodified device BN had to give you a provisioning file.  I was never offered one.  It was a file that BN gave only to people they wanted to be able to install and test software on the device.

 

On the HD and HD+, anyone can install software on the device, without an invitation from BN.  This is a huge change in stance and reflects what many of us have been asking for for 2+ years. 

 

(My guess is that it was a special APK that enabled the ADB daemon on the device, probably installed much like the update files for us are:  drop a zip file into main memory, reboot, and your device installs the software.)

 

The HD and HD+ do not require a provisioning file.  On an unmodified device, you go to a menu in settings and tick "debugging," and your device listens for ADB connections.  This is far more open than the NC and NT were as delivered. 

 

It does require a fair amount of attention be paid to get ADB working.  The sensitivity to having the adb_usb.ini file in the right place and correctly written, in particular, is new to me. 

 

The biggest change, though, is that installing apps via ADB is now a documented feature of the HD/HD+ device family. 

 

Also, the bootloader on the HD and HD+ is locked but uses a debugging setting which means that you can in fact boot other OSes.  CM10 is already in development for the device. 

 

One interesting addition to the description of the system update is that BN has added apps to the list of things they won't blow out with a system update.  That's a new addition, and a promising one. 

 

They do use a manifest file that checks whether or not the filenames you have in /system match what BN thinks you should have in /system.  If there's a mismatch, they do a device wipe.  However, they don't care if there are new directories, only new files in the directories they're scanning.  They also don't look very carefully at the files - so, for instance, folks are removing build.prop, creating a symlink to an alternate build.prop and the device is booting fine.  Earlier today, looking at an issue with the card reader on my device, I changed permissions on a system binary (to prevent it from running.)  My device didn't wipe, as I'd expected it to. 

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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5ivedom
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

Yes, this is right:

 

*****

My understanding is that is no longer necessary to root to enable ADB. I won't own one of the new B&N devices, but it sounds like they try to do a Mission Impossible-like system wipe and reset if they detect system changes such as rooting (still obnoxious, mind you), but don't do so if apps are side loaded via ADB. Have I got that right, Roustabout?

*****

 

IN Color and Tablet what had to be done to sideload (for developers) was to

 

1) Get developer rights.

2) Get a povision file and put it on Color or Tablet.

3) Install drivers for Nook.

4) Install ADB

5) Install apps via Adb.

 

In HD and HD+ the entire provision part is removed. So ANYONE can use HD and HD+ for testing.

 

all you have to do is go to settings and choose general and then developer and enable ADB.

 

However, you still need to do the following

 

1) Install drivers so Nook HD or HD+ will be recognized as Composite ADB interface.

2) Install Android SDK and ADB.

3) Run Adb and install apps via that.

 

*****

The tough part was always the part that's left i.e. getting your PC or Mac to recognize Nook as something that works with ADB.

 

You also still need to add 0x280 to the androidusb ini file in the .android folder.

 

The tough (and to be precise, random, since it sometimes work and sometimes doesn't) is installing the drivers. That's still a big block.

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roustabout
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

5 notes:  "The tough (and to be precise, random, since it sometimes work and sometimes doesn't) is installing the drivers. That's still a big block."

 

First thing I did after getting root was to install adb wireless, but honestly, I find my wired ADB connection to be very solid.  I uninstalled all the other ADB cruft around on my system, took a run through the registry to be sure it was gone, and it's been working great over the cable. 

 

Once folks start making bootable SD cards and writing their own boot, someone will put together a nice rooting package like the Nook Color has. 

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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bobstro
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

Is the driver issue a Windows issue? I had few problems with devices under Linux, but need to rebuild my development setup. With the provisioning file, do apps loaded via ADB show up as normal NOOK apps? The NC and NT aren't B&N's focus anymore, but an update to bring them in line with the newer devices would be classy. It does sound like B&N have officially adopted a new stance, albeit only on new platforms. As an early adopter of 3 NC and an NT, I hope not completely forgotten!
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TnTexas
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

@roustabout & 5ivedom: Thanks for the clarification. Not being a developer, I wasn't aware of the hoops that have been removed. Sounds like this is a bit of a step forward for them then. Maybe they are beginning to change their minds a bit.

DeanGibson
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ADB idiosyncracies

[ Edited ]

5ivedom wrote:
...

 

You also still need to add 0x280 to the androidusb ini file in the .android folder.

 

 


Unless it's a new value for the HD/+ devices, 0x2080 in the adb_usb.ini file.

Nooks: 2 HD+/16GB & 2 HD/8GB: B&N 2.2.0 (Android 4.0.4) rooted;
    2 Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted
Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 7.0": Android 4.2.2 rooted
LG G3 & G Pad 8.3 Android 4.4.2 rooted; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
Never suspect intent where incompetence will do.
DeanGibson
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There is only one true PATH

[ Edited ]

roustabout wrote:
...

 

They do use a manifest file that checks whether or not the filenames you have in /system match what BN thinks you should have in /system.  If there's a mismatch, they do a device wipe.  However, they don't care if there are new directories, only new files in the directories they're scanning..... 


Are the directories /system/sbin and /system/xbin still in the PATH, and if so, do those directories exist, and if so, are there any files in them from B&N???

Nooks: 2 HD+/16GB & 2 HD/8GB: B&N 2.2.0 (Android 4.0.4) rooted;
    2 Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted
Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 7.0": Android 4.2.2 rooted
LG G3 & G Pad 8.3 Android 4.4.2 rooted; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted
Customer loyalty is earned, not commanded or deserved, and easily lost.
Never suspect intent where incompetence will do.
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roustabout
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Re: There is only one true PATH

That is the trick exactly, Dean -- both are in PATH but only xbin arrives on the device. sbin is created and linked to a writable path in /data to get persistent root. BN could add a live sbin to /system next week, of course, although I think the install would fail on devices that already have sbin present. Also interesting, build.prop can be a link rather than a file....
"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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5ivedom
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

Dean, thanks for the correction.

 

TnTexas, I think B&N has definitely taken a step forward.

 

I wonder if they should just add an option - Pay $15 and get rooting ability. That will cover their costs for subsidizing the hardware (or rather - add some profits). And it will help people avoid all the jumping through hoops.

 

Of course, then you'll get an endless stream of people complaining about having to pay to get root access.

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bobstro
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?


5ivedom wrote:

[...] I wonder if they should just add an option - Pay $15 and get rooting ability. That will cover their costs for subsidizing the hardware (or rather - add some profits). And it will help people avoid all the jumping through hoops.

 

Of course, then you'll get an endless stream of people complaining about having to pay to get root access.


Wait... what's the $15 for? NOT using B&N's stuff? That I would fuss about.

 

I'd suggest they just allow users to have the option and void their warranty when they choose to do so. Put it in big, bold, unmistakable letters, and what's B&N's objection at that point? Yes, some will still grouse but they'll have no leg to stand on. I've always understood that I undertake such things at my own peril. I can understand FT and others' annoyances at those who try something beyond their skills, fail, and expect B&N to eat the cost.

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keriflur
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?


bobstro wrote:

5ivedom wrote:

[...] I wonder if they should just add an option - Pay $15 and get rooting ability. That will cover their costs for subsidizing the hardware (or rather - add some profits). And it will help people avoid all the jumping through hoops.

 

Of course, then you'll get an endless stream of people complaining about having to pay to get root access.


Wait... what's the $15 for? NOT using B&N's stuff? That I would fuss about.

 

I'd suggest they just allow users to have the option and void their warranty when they choose to do so. Put it in big, bold, unmistakable letters, and what's B&N's objection at that point? Yes, some will still grouse but they'll have no leg to stand on. I've always understood that I undertake such things at my own peril. I can understand FT and others' annoyances at those who try something beyond their skills, fail, and expect B&N to eat the cost.


I'd pay $15 to be able to root without voiding my warranty.

 

Also, if they'd allowed app loading through ADB on the NT without rooting, I'd have a nook in my bag right now instead of an N7 (if I thought there was a chance B&N's fall tablet release would have had that ability, I would have waited for it).

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5ivedom
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?

I'd pay $15 too.

 

At the same time I understand people who don't want to pay.

 

The fundamental problem is that B&N is selling its Tablets so cheap not so that rooters can have a cheap Android Tablet.

 

It's so that they can have lifelong customers who generate profit every year for B&N.

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bobstro
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?


5ivedom wrote:

[...] The fundamental problem is that B&N is selling its Tablets so cheap not so that rooters can have a cheap Android Tablet.

 

It's so that they can have lifelong customers who generate profit every year for B&N.


Why do you assume those two things are mutually exclusive, 5ivedom? I root, and yet I have bought hundreds of dollars of B&N content, and have purchased 6 of their devices. I am even struggling to justify maintaining subscriptions to magazines through B&N, even though B&N seems determined to frustrate me. (humor).

 

You have touched on this theme many times, 5ivedom, and I'm puzzled as to why. Why do you think that the desire to load additional apps makes me a "bad customer", despite my spending with B&N? B&N is getting a lot of it, even if they're not getting all of it. I suspect I've spent more with B&N than many of what you seem to think are "good" customers (those who do not root or run apps from other sources.) What taints my money?

 

Anybody have numbers on the average spending per NOOK on B&N content? I'm curious to see where I stand.

 

 

 

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keriflur
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Re: Difference between the Nook Color, Nook Tablet, and Nook HD?


bobstro wrote:

5ivedom wrote:

[...] The fundamental problem is that B&N is selling its Tablets so cheap not so that rooters can have a cheap Android Tablet.

 

It's so that they can have lifelong customers who generate profit every year for B&N.


Why do you assume those two things are mutually exclusive, 5ivedom? I root, and yet I have bought hundreds of dollars of B&N content, and have purchased 6 of their devices. I am even struggling to justify maintaining subscriptions to magazines through B&N, even though B&N seems determined to frustrate me. (humor).

 

You have touched on this theme many times, 5ivedom, and I'm puzzled as to why. Why do you think that the desire to load additional apps makes me a "bad customer", despite my spending with B&N? B&N is getting a lot of it, even if they're not getting all of it. I suspect I've spent more with B&N than many of what you seem to think are "good" customers (those who do not root or run apps from other sources.) What taints my money?

 

Anybody have numbers on the average spending per NOOK on B&N content? I'm curious to see where I stand.

 

 

 


Agreed.  My desire to watch HBO GO or use K-9 Mail* has no impact on how many ebooks I buy, but it directly impacts who I buy my tablet from.

 

*Yes, I know K-9 is now in the B&N app store, but that's new.