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natalia623
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎05-15-2012

Hard/soft cover books you already own.

Does anyone know why you are not allowed to download soft/hard cover books you already own in e-book format for free?  Why should we have to pay twice for books we love and would like to have available whenever we want?  I think its a little unfair.

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roustabout
Posts: 3,619
Registered: ‎03-31-2011

Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.

Rather than downloading them, you're free to image them yourself -

 

http://www.diybookscanner.org/

 

as to why you can't download them?  It's not completely unlike owning a hardback and not getting the paperback for free - it's a different edition. 

 

It's not completely analogous, either - if you have the paper book, you can sell it used.  There's really no way to sell on an ebook once you've read it, and I think there really ought to be.  Unfortunately, at least for now, the ebook market is being treated as if it were essentially a software licensing market, and in the US, you can't resell software you've bought. 

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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gobasso
Posts: 155
Registered: ‎12-26-2009

Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.

Slightly OT. DTB's are eventually remaindered and sold at a highly discounted price. Ebooks are not.

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gstone
Posts: 1,317
Registered: ‎09-05-2010

Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.

Hard Covers and eBooks are two different products. It's the same as going back to the store and asking for a free paperback of a Hard Cover book you've purchased.

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RHWright
Posts: 1,619
Registered: ‎10-21-2009

Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.


natalia623 wrote:

Does anyone know why you are not allowed to download soft/hard cover books you already own in e-book format for free?  Why should we have to pay twice for books we love and would like to have available whenever we want?  I think its a little unfair.


I should know better than to be baited like this, but what the hell...

 

You own a single copy of the book. Not the right to an infinite supply of copies. I own copies of various musical recordings on LP, cassette, or CD. Does that entitle me to a free download in a new audio format? I own certain books as hardcovers. Does that entitle me to a free paperback copy, too? Or that fancy anniversary edition copy when it comes out?

 

Think it's unfair? Well, the nicest thing I can say is put your thinking cap on again and redo the math. Cuz you got the answer wrong.

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Byteguy
Posts: 611
Registered: ‎06-10-2011
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.

And, when you were a kid and bought that vinyl album from the Beatles you didn't get a free version on cassette later, and then a free 8-track, and then a free CD, and then a free iTunes download.

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keriflur
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Registered: ‎01-05-2010
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.

[ Edited ]

RHWright wrote:

You own a single copy of the book. Not the right to an infinite supply of copies. I own copies of various musical recordings on LP, cassette, or CD. Does that entitle me to a free download in a new audio format? I own certain books as hardcovers. Does that entitle me to a free paperback copy, too? Or that fancy anniversary edition copy when it comes out?


I like this idea.  I have a bible, and by this logic I'm owed a copy of the Gutenberg Bible.  Free.  Come on, Vatican, hand it over.  I've know you've got two of them down in those oxygen-free stacks you have underground that I saw in that Dan Brown movie.  One of those copies is mine.

 

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roustabout
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.

[ Edited ]

Just drop by the Beinecke in New Haven.  I thought that was your copy I saw left behind in the stacks? I know mine didn't have a bunch of dog-eared pages like that one did.  

 

(all kidding aside, if you're within, say, 500 miles of New Haven and you have never been to the Beinecke, it's a fabultously interesting library, or was when I saw it last.  I can't imagine folks who enjoy books wouldn't enjoy stopping through.  In addition to the Gutenberg on public display, the Beinecke is something of the "attic" of Yale - people donate objects to it, as well as books.  When I visited, they had the furniture from Alice Toklas and Gertrude Stein's place on display - seriously, some of the furniture was part of their collection!   They also have a good chunk of the bullet that killed Lord Nelson.)  

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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msmoonlite
Posts: 175
Registered: ‎10-03-2010
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.

What is with the sense of entitlement just because we have a new technology in ereaders? Just because you paid for one edition does not mean you have access to all editions. That is like expecting to get the paperback version of a book after you buy the hardcover. Seriously??

 

I have a nook, and there are countless books on there that I paid for the conventional version and the electronic version. Some of the books I've paid for three times because I'm neurotic and the minute I can't find a book on my bookshelf I'm off to buy another copy, only to find the misplaced copy somehwere else later. Now with my nook I can keep my favorite reads with me all the time, even if I already have multiple copies.

 

Life goes on. If you don't want to pay for multiple editions, you can check out books from the library or the countless ebook sharing websites that are out there.

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MacMcK1957
Posts: 2,193
Registered: ‎07-25-2011

Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.

I really think the best parallel anyone's mentioned is music.  I have over 150 LP's, some from as far back as the early 70's.  Is iTunes going to let me download all those songs for free?  I had the option of copying the songs to cassettes, and did so often, but they're not going to give me fresh, clean digital copies.

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RHWright
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.

What I hate to see (though no one has brought it up here yet, thankfully) is when a moral/ethic equivalency is drawn in this way:

 

1) Copying a CD I own for my use is OK; scanning a book I own for my own use is OK

2) So, since having a "free" electronic copy of what I own is OK, it's also OK to save myself the effort and just download it for free wherever I might find it online, as long as it's for my own use.

 

To which I say, "no, it's not OK." I know it's a very fine distinction. And part of that distinction rests in behaviors that abet, or it least encourage, an environment in which activities that are not OK can thrive.

 

But an "information should be free, abolish all copyright" mentality, as blissfully utopian as it may be, ignores the current state of the world. (And I tend to be a utopian.) And taking content you want, in this context, is not a transformative act of civil disobedience, it's theft.

 

What is transformative is the many ways authors are choosing to change their relationship with their readers. Selling to them directly, often at a better price. Giving away (e)books for free. Reclaiming the rights to old books and reissuing them themselves or through smaller presses.

 

We can create a post-capitalist, "Star Trek" world; we won't do it by taking what is not ours, but by providing new models of the way things can be better.

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keriflur
Posts: 6,644
Registered: ‎01-05-2010

Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.


MacMcK1957 wrote:

I really think the best parallel anyone's mentioned is music.  I have over 150 LP's, some from as far back as the early 70's.  Is iTunes going to let me download all those songs for free?  I had the option of copying the songs to cassettes, and did so often, but they're not going to give me fresh, clean digital copies.


I'll be the first one to say this is completely different, but... if you buy a DVD you can now get a fresh, clean digital copy of the movie on iTunes for free.

 

http://www.apple.com/itunes/digital-copy/

 

The reason this is completely different is that when you bought those LPs you didn't also buy the rights to an additional format.  In this new DVD deal, you would be buying both sets of rights for one price.

 

IMO it's not a bad idea for a rights holder to sell multiple copies in a package deal (including the package where there's no additional cost expressed for the digital copy).  O'Reilly has been doing this for a while, though they make it clear that they're charging for both copies and they're just charging less overall for the package.  That said, until those of us that buy multiple copies stop doing so, there's not a lot of incentive for the publishers to package them or give them away for free.

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keriflur
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.


RHWright wrote:

What I hate to see (though no one has brought it up here yet, thankfully) is when a moral/ethic equivalency is drawn in this way:

 

1) Copying a CD I own for my use is OK; scanning a book I own for my own use is OK

2) So, since having a "free" electronic copy of what I own is OK, it's also OK to save myself the effort and just download it for free wherever I might find it online, as long as it's for my own use.

 

To which I say, "no, it's not OK." I know it's a very fine distinction. And part of that distinction rests in behaviors that abet, or it least encourage, an environment in which activities that are not OK can thrive.

 

But an "information should be free, abolish all copyright" mentality, as blissfully utopian as it may be, ignores the current state of the world. (And I tend to be a utopian.) And taking content you want, in this context, is not a transformative act of civil disobedience, it's theft.


I think it's important to note that number 1 above is not always "OK" if "OK" is meant to mean that it's legal to do so.  I'd read recently somewhere that all the CD copying we've all done isn't actually legal, and this post made me want to look into that more.  It turns out that the jury is still out on fair use, but most experts seem to agree that if you copy a CD to another CD, and you use a regular CD-R and not a music CD-R, then you are breaking copyright law.  There seems to be a mix of thought on digital copies and personal use.

 

So, while yes, most of us think number 1 is true and legal, that may not actually be the case, which obviously voids any argument in number 2 (which is illegal regardless of any argument anyone might want to posit).

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Sun_Cat
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Registered: ‎12-03-2011
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.


roustabout wrote:

Just drop by the Beinecke in New Haven.  I thought that was your copy I saw left behind in the stacks? I know mine didn't have a bunch of dog-eared pages like that one did.  

 

(all kidding aside, if you're within, say, 500 miles of New Haven and you have never been to the Beinecke, it's a fabultously interesting library, or was when I saw it last.  I can't imagine folks who enjoy books wouldn't enjoy stopping through.  In addition to the Gutenberg on public display, the Beinecke is something of the "attic" of Yale - people donate objects to it, as well as books.  When I visited, they had the furniture from Alice Toklas and Gertrude Stein's place on display - seriously, some of the furniture was part of their collection!   They also have a good chunk of the bullet that killed Lord Nelson.)  


The first and last time I visited the Beinecke was just a few months after it opened, in the spring of '64, when, as a high school junior, I was shopping around for a college to attend. I remember seeing the Gutenberg and other treasures, but what impressed me most was the beautiful, atmospheric light that shines throught the translucent marble walls. Worth traveling at least 500 miles to see that. Thanks for the reminder.

Please visit me on Goodreads. Currently reading:
Journey Into Now by Leonard Jacobson
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LarryOnLI
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Registered: ‎01-04-2010
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.


keriflur wrote:

MacMcK1957 wrote:

I really think the best parallel anyone's mentioned is music.  I have over 150 LP's, some from as far back as the early 70's.  Is iTunes going to let me download all those songs for free?  I had the option of copying the songs to cassettes, and did so often, but they're not going to give me fresh, clean digital copies.


I'll be the first one to say this is completely different, but... if you buy a DVD you can now get a fresh, clean digital copy of the movie on iTunes for free.

 

http://www.apple.com/itunes/digital-copy/

 

The reason this is completely different is that when you bought those LPs you didn't also buy the rights to an additional format.  In this new DVD deal, you would be buying both sets of rights for one price.

 

IMO it's not a bad idea for a rights holder to sell multiple copies in a package deal (including the package where there's no additional cost expressed for the digital copy).  O'Reilly has been doing this for a while, though they make it clear that they're charging for both copies and they're just charging less overall for the package.  That said, until those of us that buy multiple copies stop doing so, there's not a lot of incentive for the publishers to package them or give them away for free.


Not the same thing, in the deal described in your link, you bought both a DVD and a digital copy.

 

You can not take an existing DVD you purchased that did not include this offer, and get an iTunes digital copy for free (the iTunes copy isn't and never was free, it was just included in the price).

 

 

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RHWright
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.


keriflur wrote:

I think it's important to note that number 1 above is not always "OK" if "OK" is meant to mean that it's legal to do so.  I'd read recently somewhere that all the CD copying we've all done isn't actually legal, and this post made me want to look into that more.  It turns out that the jury is still out on fair use, but most experts seem to agree that if you copy a CD to another CD, and you use a regular CD-R and not a music CD-R, then you are breaking copyright law.  There seems to be a mix of thought on digital copies and personal use.

 

So, while yes, most of us think number 1 is true and legal, that may not actually be the case, which obviously voids any argument in number 2 (which is illegal regardless of any argument anyone might want to posit).



I used "OK" for just that reason. Legal can change. Legal is open to interpretation in the courts. "Legal" is sometimes what a law firm can sucker you into agreeing to so as to avoid a court fight.

 

By "OK," I meant what most/many people seem to find morally/ethically acceptable. If I own a CD, the average joe on the street will probably think it's OK for me to make a copy for my own personal use. Ditto a book.

 

Big, corporate rights holders seem more and more to want to limit a consumer's rights when they purchase content. There are some that would love a rent-to-access model; you would no longer own any content (as well discussed here, e-book TOS seem to support this view).

 

Believe me, I believe in protecting creators. It's the corporatism that drives me batty.

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Htom_Serveaux
Posts: 146
Registered: ‎03-13-2010
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.


LarryOnLI wrote:


Not the same thing, in the deal described in your link, you bought both a DVD and a digital copy.

 

You can not take an existing DVD you purchased that did not include this offer, and get an iTunes digital copy for free (the iTunes copy isn't and never was free, it was just included in the price).


 

This is true, the idea of getting an e-book with the physical book would be a marketing idea, not something you get for free.  It's been talked to death, but I'd like to see physical books at $x,. and then for something like $x + 2 you'd get the physical book and the e-book version.

 

But then again, the number of people who like to both snuggle into their libraries with "real" books *and* carry their entire collection around on their e-reader may be vanishingly small.

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keriflur
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Registered: ‎01-05-2010
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.


Htom_Serveaux wrote:

 

But then again, the number of people who like to both snuggle into their libraries with "real" books *and* carry their entire collection around on their e-reader may be vanishingly small.


This is true.  For me, I only buy new HCs or PBs of fiction if I hope/plan to have the author sign the copy, or if the book is part of a series where some of the copies are already signed and I believe the complete set will be of value some day.  I also buy used signed and first edition and/or first printing copies of certain books.  I expect that eventually I will get to the point where there is nothing on my shelves that isn't a first ed/printing or isn't signed.

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Byteguy
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Registered: ‎06-10-2011
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Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.


MacMcK1957 wrote:

I... I had the option of copying the songs to cassettes, and did so often, but they're not going to give me fresh, clean digital copies.


Actually, at first it was against the law to copy to cassette.  The record companies tried to get the technology banned and only agreed to drop their suit when the cassette makers agreed to pay them a tiny fee for EVERY blank tape sold.  In exchange, the record companies agreed to grant a blanket license for just that, and only that, purpose.  If you go into your office supply store you might notice "Music CD" blanks that cost more than "Data CD" blanks.  That's a continuation of that fee; you are supposed to buy the "music CDs" to make backups of your purchased CDs.

 

Copyright law is FAR more restrictive than people think.

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gstone
Posts: 1,317
Registered: ‎09-05-2010

Re: Hard/soft cover books you already own.


Byteguy wrote:

 

Copyright law is FAR more restrictive than people think.



And irrational and incoherent. It's a good example of lobyist writing law to specifically benifit their clients.