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bobstro
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

[ Edited ]
flyingtoastr wrote:
Bobstro is the one strawmanning myself and MG.
It's not strawmanning. You and MG are the ones drawing comparisons between customers complaining about B&N and Apple. I am not misrepresenting what either of you wrote. Your exact words regarding iWork were "... rarely used functionality". Read the thread.
I see zero relationship between the companies, the products or even the particular issues under discussion. If you insist on making those sorts of comparisons, then I'll point out that Apple has a history of fixing persistent issues.
I know or care nothing about Apple's iWork product, but I bet they add AppleScript back before B&N adds functional shelving. 
B&N dismissed complaints about the HD/+ line by pointing out that Apple does the same thing. They're still paying for that mistake. They should pay attention when customers with years of experience with B&N products point out shortcomings.

 

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Mercury_Glitch
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

Fine, B&N isn't apple.

 

The software world is littered with examples of new versions not doing things the same as the old version, of some features being changed.  Sometimes they aren't for the better sometimes they are, sometimes the change is unavoidable. 

 

I also never said that the shelving was great, in any version we've seen.  Nor did I say that those who had issues with it should just deal.  I pointed out that other issues that have been talked about on this forum HAVE been tackled.

 

I've also not questioned the concerns about non-physical issues folks have with the NGL.  Lets look at them on a one by one basis, we can start with the storage.  As I've pointed out in other threads, it affects a small group, that is not to say it is an unimportant group just that it is small.  B&N has offered cloud storage, and while you may not like it, it is still a viable option.  It's hard to imagine most of even the intial small group needing to read all 500 some odd ebooks (going with your figures rather than B&Ns) between having wifi access.  Sideloaded content is content not purchased from B&N, again the group that uses this is small, probably smaller than the group that would have issues with the other limitation.  Yes library books are sideloaded, but most libraries only allow you to have so many ebooks checked out at a time, and you've got time limitations on them.

 

I feel the need to make this a nice new line.  I am not saying the concerns of those groups are unimportant.  I am not saying they should suck it up.  I am not saying they are wrong.  I am saying that from a fiscal perspective they are a small group and there are options to help address some of the issues.

 

The color of the device.  I don't love the white either, I have found in selling the HDs that the white is often the color women pick while the grey is the one men pick.  This is obviously not a hard and fast rule.  However when it comes to varriance the grey HD is the one more often selected by women than the white is by men.  So I'm not sure why B&N went with white.  Is it something that should really prevent you from buying the device if you like it otherwise?  No, there are skins out there that can change the color fairly easily.  I'm sure we'll see more cases from B&N and/or third party vendors as well.

 

The buttons, it's been mentioned that removing them kept the cost down.  The NGL has a more responsive screen making the need for the buttons even less.  The removal does put limitations on the cases you can use, no more waterproofing the Nook in a baggie.  As to sand, I've had one customer come in from the beach with an unresponsive NSTG, took about 10 seconds to get the sand out.  And that's allowing for it to settle in and possible be pushed further in.  As to the waterproofing, sorry I got nothing for you. 

 

Now let me stress I don't think these issues are unimportant.  However some of the concerns can be easily adressed.  However B&N has shown in this new software version that they are listening.

 

People asked for the homescreen to be cleaned up.  Done.  It's a very clean UI there now, and it allows you to see the books you've been reading and the book you're reading now.  They also seem to have removed the smuty book suggestions from the homescreen (I haven't seen any on my NGL nor on the demos in store).

 

People asked for a better shop UI, again done.  Along with better recomendations.  Again done.

 

Is shelving still an issue, yes.  But I think the "never going to change" mentality that gets repeated almost any time shelving is discussed is proving to be false.  Change is happening, it just hasn't trickled down to the all the features. 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and we are only the thread of the Pattern.
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keriflur
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

[ Edited ]

B&N does NOT offer cloud storage.  If you're calling "archive your B&N books because they don't fit" cloud storage, then you are mistaken.

 

Also, sideloaded content could be content purchased from Fictionwise or the other service that B&N owned (Books on Board, I think) that was not converted to the B&N account.  That's a LOT of books, and there are/were plenty of forum members who had 500+, even 2000+, of these books.  So, basically, the longest-term B&N ebook customers are getting the shaft here.

 

Also, people like Nallia and Ya_Ya, who both exceeded the limit of what they could store FROM B&N.

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keriflur
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions


Mercury_Glitch wrote:
I don't love the white either, I have found in selling the HDs that the white is often the color women pick while the grey is the one men pick.  This is obviously not a hard and fast rule.  However when it comes to varriance the grey HD is the one more often selected by women than the white is by men.  So I'm not sure why B&N went with white.

I'm pretty sure you've answered your own question here.  Julie, as you may recall, is a woman (and we all know how all of us women are all the same).

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bobstro
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

[ Edited ]
Mercury_Glitch wrote:

[...] The software world is littered with examples of new versions not doing things the same as the old version, of some features being changed.  Sometimes they aren't for the better sometimes they are, sometimes the change is unavoidable. 

 

Those should server as a cautionary tale for B&N, not an example to emulate!

 

[...] we can start with the storage.  As I've pointed out in other threads, it affects a small group, that is not to say it is an unimportant group just that it is small.  B&N has offered cloud storage, and while you may not like it, it is still a viable option.  It's hard to imagine most of even the intial small group needing to read all 500 some odd ebooks (going with your figures rather than B&Ns) between having wifi access.

 

Do you know for a fact that this small group in terms of individuals is actually accounts for only a small percentage of overall ebook purchases? It's common for a small population to account for the vast majority of sales of some products. Does B&N really want to ignore the ebook one-percenters?

 

I wouldn't be so annoyed by this if it weren't for the fact that addressing the storage needs of this small population would have taken a minimal amount of effort on B&N's part. Since they didn't upgrade the underlying OS, there's a very good reason to expect that the techniques that NST users have used for years to get around internal storage limits would have worked exactly the same way. It's a bit of a slight to be overlooked because you wanted a capability to use the product. It's an insult to be overlooked because they didn't bother.

 

Sideloaded content is content not purchased from B&N, again the group that uses this is small, probably smaller than the group that would have issues with the other limitation.  Yes library books are sideloaded, but most libraries only allow you to have so many ebooks checked out at a time, and you've got time limitations on them.

 

I think you (and B&N) are underestimating how important this will be. I cited examples of downloading Wikipedia content and Instapaper content as epubs. Keri cited excellent examples of legacy collections. There's more content than just "new books" coming out in epub format now. Here again, this comes across as a case of B&N simply not bothering. The fix for B&N content storage would also have alleviated some of the concerns about space for sideloaded content. Instead of pre-allocating storage based on where purchased, we'd just have storage for our stuff.

 

Telling users to manage a large collection on the device when they haven't fixed shelving yet really rubs salt in the wound. If you're not going to fix on-device functionality, at least let us do it on a desktop app. Keep in mind, this assumes everybody has a computer handy. Wouldn't it make sense to clean up on-device management features?

 

I feel the need to make this a nice new line.  I am not saying the concerns of those groups are unimportant.  I am not saying they should suck it up.  I am not saying they are wrong.  I am saying that from a fiscal perspective they are a small group and there are options to help address some of the issues.

 

MG, I do not doubt that you are sincere. I think you can understand how frustrating it would be for me to show up at your store with my existing NST, let you tell me all about the new features, then tell me I'm going to have to spend time pruning back my collection to make it fit. It's not that the NGL has a small amount of storage. It's that it has less than the legacy product it is meant to replace (depending on the specific balance of books.) At least on the NST, there was a work-around if I needed more of either type of storage.

 

The color of the device.  I don't love the white either [...] Is it something that should really prevent you from buying the device if you like it otherwise?  No, there are skins out there that can change the color fairly easily. 

 

On this, I agree. I don't like white, but the $39 deal on the Kobo Mini was only for white when I purchased, so I went with it. In retrospect, it's not that bad. It does look sort of like page margins. I can spend $12 on a skin to bury it if it really bugs me. I did put a wood skin on my old NST.

 

[...] The buttons, it's been mentioned that removing them kept the cost down.  The NGL has a more responsive screen making the need for the buttons even less. 

 

Try this. Open up a NST and NGL each with a large number of books side by side. Compare which is quicker to scroll through: The NST pressing and holding the button, or the NGL doing swipes for each screen. I'm not saying that buttons are the answer, but some way of moving more quickly through the collection would be nice. Does one exist? I suppose this is another case that only affects that small percentage of heavy ebook buyers. 

 

The removal does put limitations on the cases you can use, no more waterproofing the Nook in a baggie.  As to sand, I've had one customer come in from the beach with an unresponsive NSTG, took about 10 seconds to get the sand out.  And that's allowing for it to settle in and possible be pushed further in.  As to the waterproofing, sorry I got nothing for you. 

 

The problem isn't obstructing the IR sensors. The NST/G collect dust in there even without sand. The problem is that requiring screen swipes to navigate increases the odds of grit damaging the screen. The screen is advertised as scratch resistant, but notably doesn't seem to be on par with Gorilla Glass. How easy it is to scratch remains to be seen, but without a screen protector, it concerns me.

 

Now let me stress I don't think these issues are unimportant.  However some of the concerns can be easily adressed.  However B&N has shown in this new software version that they are listening.

 

I think they're listening selectively!

 

People asked for the homescreen to be cleaned up.  Done.  [...] They also seem to have removed the smuty book suggestions from the homescreen (I haven't seen any on my NGL nor on the demos in store). [...] People asked for a better shop UI, again done.  Along with better recomendations.  Again done.

 

To paraphrase Chris Rock, "what do you want, a cookie?" Those features are supposed to work. On the NST/G! Are those fixes worth upgrading for? Why haven't those long-requested features made it to the customers that purchased the older devices? I'm happy for Connie that her ebooks now sync properly between devices, but they were supposed to all along!

 

Is shelving still an issue, yes.  But I think the "never going to change" mentality that gets repeated almost any time shelving is discussed is proving to be false.  Change is happening, it just hasn't trickled down to the all the features. 

 

Change is promised. Change is hinted at. But change tends to only come through product upgrades. B&N doesn't even do a good job explaining what updates are supposed to fix. Too often, they include surprises that break things ("Surprise! No more page numbers in ToC!")

 

I'd be willing to buy into the "fixes are coming" line if I thought there was any way that B&N would fix the storage issue. It's a real problem for me today, on day one, and I don't consider myself a ravenous reader like some here.

 

 

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Mercury_Glitch
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions


keriflur wrote:

Mercury_Glitch wrote:
I don't love the white either, I have found in selling the HDs that the white is often the color women pick while the grey is the one men pick.  This is obviously not a hard and fast rule.  However when it comes to varriance the grey HD is the one more often selected by women than the white is by men.  So I'm not sure why B&N went with white.

I'm pretty sure you've answered your own question here.  Julie, as you may recall, is a woman (and we all know how all of us women are all the same).


Possibly, seems odd that they'd ignore the variance I mentioned where more women bought grey Nooks than men bought white ones.  Though it's not the first time they've not done what the real world would indicate they should. 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and we are only the thread of the Pattern.
flyingtoastr
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions


bobstro wrote:
flyingtoastr wrote:
Bobstro is the one strawmanning myself and MG.
It's not strawmanning. You and MG are the ones drawing comparisons between customers complaining about B&N and Apple. I am not misrepresenting what either of you wrote. Your exact words regarding iWork were "... rarely used functionality". Read the thread.

 


AppleScript in iWork is rarely used in the same sense that shelving is - almost a negligible percent of the customer base even knows it exists, but it's a huge deal for a very vocal group of people on the internet. In my 4+ years selling the damn things I've had maybe a few dozen people even ask about the system, much less use it (and some of those people had far more books that you). Both are niche services, both were reduced in functionality with an otherwise good update (N1E to NST/NGL, iWork 09 to 5). It's a fair comparison.

 

If you don't believe me just go read Ars' review of iWork 5 and the comments to see all the people going ballistic in the same manner that we sometimes witness here.

 

More to the point, do you really want to play the thread history game? Here's some choice quotes from yourself.

 

Your examples trivialize legitimate concerns about actual device limitations.

 

I get annoyed when you and FT try to make it sound like pointing out significant shortcomings in core device functionality is idle carping about things nobody cares about.

 

No, you didn't say that, but your comparison certainly trivializes the issues. 

 

You're fine until you start dismissing legitimate users, FT. This is your history.

 

I'm very curious where in this thread I told users who aren't happy with the shelving system to be quiet and sit in the corner. In fact, I'm pretty sure I said the opposite a couple of times.

 

You are strawmanning the thread, trying to paint it as the evil BN ignoring their users. No one has said anything close to that here. I just pointed out that the shelving system for the N1E was programmed for an Android so old it can't be just plopped onto the new devices, and was designed for a device with seperate I/O displays that don't translate to the new devices. MG only stated that the loss of features on updates was an industry-wide phenomenon, and not unique to BN. Somehow you took this as "trivializing legitimate users" - how I'm still not quite sure.

 

Is stating that maybe everything isn't black or white somehow an affront to customers now? If so, I think I'm pretty much done with capitalism.

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bobstro
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

[ Edited ]
flyingtoastr wrote:

AppleScript in iWork is rarely used in the same sense that shelving is [...]

 

Shelving is a long-standing (and unfixed) issue. The lack of storage is the new problem. (Apple may yet fix that issue, but I seriously don't care about it.) 

 

[...] It's a fair comparison.

 

If you were only comparing those two specific items, that was unclear. Your post came across more like "all these people complaining about the NGL are just like..." due to lack of specificity. If that was not your intent, I apologize.

 

Your examples trivialize legitimate concerns about actual device limitations.

 

I certainly feel they do, though if you meant it otherwise, then that was unclear. I feel it trivializes issues that affect numbers of potential purchasers on day one to effectively say "ah, but even Apple has issues". What exactly is a customer supposed to do with that information?

 

I get annoyed when you and FT try to make it sound like pointing out significant shortcomings in core device functionality is idle carping about things nobody cares about.

 

With Apple, things get better. With B&N, only a few things get better. I'd say storage qualifies as a pretty serious shortcoming if it affects you. 

 

No, you didn't say that, but your comparison certainly trivializes the issues. 

 

It did as written.

 

You're fine until you start dismissing legitimate users, FT. This is your history.

 

I'd point you back to your Yo! post for that one. Your weird little feint trying to take me to task for insulting iWork users after you described it as a little used feature underscores the impression.

 

 

[...] You are strawmanning the thread, trying to paint it as the evil BN ignoring their users.

 

If I'm misrepresenting B&N, please show us how B&N has addressed these user concerns. Otherwise, I'd say my portrayal is accurate.

 

No one has said anything close to that here. I just pointed out that the shelving system for the N1E was programmed for an Android so old it can't be just plopped onto the new devices, and was designed for a device with seperate I/O displays that don't translate to the new devices.

 

I did not respond to that post.

 

MG only stated that the loss of features on updates was an industry-wide phenomenon, and not unique to BN. Somehow you took this as "trivializing legitimate users" - how I'm still not quite sure.

 

Because it comes across as condescending. It suggests that these aren't real issues, but just something people like to complain about. The thread is about early impressions.

 

Is stating that maybe everything isn't black or white somehow an affront to customers now? If so, I think I'm pretty much done with capitalism.

 

How are these issues not black or white? Storage limitations? Shelving? They seem to be pretty cut & dried. If you don't see how a comeback to the effect of "well, Apple has issues too" is an affront to customers, I can't help you.

flyingtoastr
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

[ Edited ]

bobstro wrote:

How are these issues not black or white? Storage limitations? Shelving? They seem to be pretty cut & dried.


Because nothing is ever black and white!

 

Nothing here exists in a vacuum. You demand that BN fix issues that are important to you, but prioritizing those issues means other ones (that other customers find more important) will fall by the wayside. BN does not have infinite resources, they have to triage out their projects. For myself, shelving is useless and what happens to it doesn't matter to me in the slightest. So I would personally rather have the team work on better UI/UX design and ignore shelving. Does that make me right and you wrong? No. But someone at BN does have to make those triage decisions about what they are going to spend their limited amount of time working on. 

 

You want SD card slots? The devices will have to cost more (both for materials and the requisite patent licensing - look to add about $5-10 per device)

You want multiple memory sizes and colors? Be ready for some drastic price increases as BN loses the ability to buy in commoditized bulk.

You want a new OS based on Android 4 so you can muck around with MTP? Better be ready for a lot of development and bugs to crop up as the system is rebuilt from scratch again.

 

And all of that is fine - just please understand that there are reasons for why things are done.

 

There are always trade-offs. There are always reasons why things happen, even if the reason is unsatisfying and annoying. All I've ever argued for - whether it was why BN had a closed app ecosystem to why autoupdates are becoming the norm to why why BN is more expensive than Amazon - is for people to stop and think about what reasons (business, technical, legal, etc.) there are for the way things are done at BN. Think about marginal costs before demanding lower prices and better hardware. Think about copyright law before complaining that Kindle books aren't compatible with a NOOK device when you can strip the DRM yourself easily. Think about having to try and please as many people as possible with limited resources even when it means you might have to ignore a smaller minority for the short-term. You may not find the answers satisfactory, but at least acknowledge that they exist instead of defaulting to "BN hates customers!".

 

And, along the same lines, you are never willing to give BN credit for the things they do right. Pushing the NOOK Video apps to a nearly 3 year-old device that was running a version of Android so old they had to write a special app just for it? Listening to customer feedback and completely rebuilding their website from the ground up? Completely reorienting the focus of the entire NOOK Media division to get the HD series devices GPS certified and hooked in in less than 3 months? Giving up 3-5% of the profit of every ebook sold to license ADEPT for no reason other that to let customers purchase books at other vendors, even when they have their own DRM schema they could be using for free. Even the little things, like just putting the battery level in the quick settings or changing the B1G1 weekend offer to offer genres instead of random blobs. Every. Single. Example. there is a response to customer feedback. 

 

I've never seen you once say "well gosh, BN did something good." Just look at your response to Connie stating that synching seems to work better: "Please understand, though, that sychronization was always supposed to work." It's not "cool BN finally fixed this issue and I hope they can backport it to the other devices." It's "well it doesn't matter if they fixed a problem because it wasn't fixed quickly enough". No matter what BN does, it's never good enough.

 

And that's the thing that bothers me most. It's always negative. It's always BN stomping on the little man. It's always BN employees being so high in their ivory tower that they can't hear the wails of their "true customers". It's never constructive, always destructive. This forum is toxic because no one is willing to say "I dislike this, and I really hope they change it in this manner, but I understand at least the intent behind why it happened this way". There's no reasonable discourse, just hyperbole.

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bobstro
Posts: 3,720
Registered: ‎01-01-2012

Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

[ Edited ]
flyingtoastr wrote:
Because nothing is ever black and white!

Do we at least agree that storage and shelving are known issues?

 

Nothing here exists in a vacuum. You demand that BN fix issues that are important to you, but prioritizing those issues means other ones (that other customers find more important) will fall by the wayside.

 

I am not demanding anything. This is a thread discussing first impressions of the NGL, which I am providing. I am stating the criteria that I use to evaluate the product and make my buy/no-buy decision. Thus far, the NGL fits the latter category.

 

BN does not have infinite resources, they have to triage out their projects.

 

That said, I have seen little from B&N to indicate that they are following any sort of prioritized or triage-like system. Indeed, they seem to make a point of making some unasked for change (page numbering) in the midst of pusing an update to fix an unrelated problem (wifi, as I recall, though B&N rarely clarifies what they've "fixed").

 

For myself, shelving is useless and what happens to it doesn't matter to me in the slightest. So I would personally rather have the team work on better UI/UX design and ignore shelving.

 

Not a great early impression for anybody who does care about shelving. My first impression is "Looks better, does less!" (How to convey that ShamWow voice in writing?)

 

Does that make me right and you wrong? No. But someone at BN does have to make those triage decisions about what they are going to spend their limited amount of time working on.

 

 We're talking about new product development here, right? I'd expect resources to be allocated to making the device a compelling improvement over the previous generation in order to actually sell the things a pretty high priority. Seriously, FT, are you expecting violin music for those poor beleagured developers who I'll be forking my money over to B&N to pay?

 

You want SD card slots? The devices will have to cost more (both for materials and the requisite patent licensing - look to add about $5-10 per device)

 

At that price (though I have to wonder if a socket adds that much), they'd still cost less than the nearest competitor with a slot (Kobo), and have a compelling differentiator over the Kindle. Then you can explain why the device with the slot costs less.

 

You want multiple memory sizes and colors? Be ready for some drastic price increases as BN loses the ability to buy in commoditized bulk.

 

How about simply linking B&N storage to sideloaded storage (or to be more exact, link the filesystems as necessary) to provide a common pool of storage. No hardware costs involved. One time developer cost. It's been done and the code is available for review.

 

You want a new OS based on Android 4 so you can muck around with MTP? Better be ready for a lot of development and bugs to crop up as the system is rebuilt from scratch again.

 

I personally was prepared to buy the new device without that, though I think some of the stability gains up through 2.2 or 2.3 would be worth considering. Again, this is hardly unexpected for new product development.

 

There are always trade-offs. There are always reasons why things happen, even if the reason is unsatisfying and annoying. All I've ever argued for - whether it was why BN had a closed app ecosystem to why autoupdates are becoming the norm to why why BN is more expensive than Amazon - is for people to stop and think about what reasons (business, technical, legal, etc.) there are for the way things are done at BN.

 

Believe it or not, FT, I've actually read your points. While I'm dubious about some of them (why can't B&N clarify what a fix includes?), others provided enough clarification for me to re-think my position on ebook pricing, for one. However, I think you are carrying it to hand-wavy extremes with some of these points...

 

Think about marginal costs before demanding lower prices and better hardware.

 

Erm. I'll think about what your competition manages to provide at similar price points. I'll think about how my existing NST already does most of what I need without troubling those poor folks at B&N with my selfish demands. Does that work for you?

 

Think about copyright law before complaining that Kindle books aren't compatible with a NOOK device when you can strip the DRM yourself easily.

 

This affects B&N costs of production how?

 

Think about having to try and please as many people as possible with limited resources even when it means you might have to ignore a smaller minority for the short-term. You may not find the answers satisfactory, but at least acknowledge that they exist instead of defaulting to "BN hates customers!".

 

I've never said B&N hates customers. In fact, I've often provided recommendations as to how they might better serve customers. B&N has even implemented some of those (GoPS access) though I'm sure not based on my suggestions. I overall like the new device. If there were some means of addressing the storage issue, I might yet buy one (though perhaps when costs drop a bit).

 

And, along the same lines, you are never willing to give BN credit for the things they do right. Pushing the NOOK Video apps to a nearly 3 year-old device that was running a version of Android so old they had to write a special app just for it?

 

Erm. Wasn't this supposed to have been provided all along? Is this another cookie request? I did notice that this allows B&N to sell more content. Sorry, but that doesn't put them in Mother Teresa's class in my book.

 

Listening to customer feedback and completely rebuilding their website from the ground up?

 

That hasn't been done yet. It's promised in 2014. Again, though, isn't a functional web site sort of assumed if you're going to ask for my money? "Buy from B&N because our website is supposed to work soon!" isn't a good tag line either.

 

Completely reorienting the focus of the entire NOOK Media division to get the HD series devices GPS certified and hooked in in less than 3 months?

 

To add functionality that many of us made clear was important all the way back to the NC? In order to move a tremendous inventory of devices that still exists? No, FT, my heart does not bleed for B&N on that count.

 

Giving up 3-5% of the profit of every ebook sold to license ADEPT for no reason other that to let customers purchase books at other vendors, even when they have their own DRM schema they could be using for free.

 

Is that the extent of the B&N DRM relationship to Adobe's? Seriously? Does not the term "licensing" come up in the DRM discussion? Is that truly done out of the goodness of B&N's heart? Is there no underlying commerical incentive ("we might sell some books publishers won't otherwise let us peddle!") behind these altruistic actions of which you speak?

 

Even the little things, like just putting the battery level in the quick settings or changing the B1G1 weekend offer to offer genres instead of random blobs. Every. Single. Example. there is a response to customer feedback. 

 

With the exception of the battery indicator, you seem to be describing things that allow B&N to sell product. For which I give them money. That is the attaboy.

 

I've never seen you once say "well gosh, BN did something good."

 

Perhaps it's not clear.  When I respond here trying to help users with problems, I'm saying that it's worth the effort to use a B&N device. When I overlook some features I don't like to buy a device despite its limitations, so long as I can use it how I need to, that's my saying "you done good." Whenever I purchased every one of the 6 NOOK devices I own, or hundred or so ebook titles and various subscriptions from B&N, I was saying "you did good." (Well, well enough perhaps.)  Do you want a card?

 

Just look at your response to Connie stating that synching seems to work better: "Please understand, though, that sychronization was always supposed to work."

 

Well... WASN'T IT? The feature was advertised as working!

 

It's not "cool BN finally fixed this issue and I hope they can backport it to the other devices." It's "well it doesn't matter if they fixed a problem because it wasn't fixed quickly enough". No matter what BN does, it's never good enough.

 

They didn't backport a fix, did they? Or do you want preemptive thanks, cookies and flowers?

 

And that's the thing that bothers me most. It's always negative.

 

That is the nature of support forums, yes. In some cases, someone -- and not just B&N employees -- identifies a fix or workaround, and the customer is happy. In others, they're directed to places to get help. Sometimes, as in this instance, potential purchasers are made aware of an issue that might result in their not purchasing a product that doesn't meet their needs, and venting their frustrations on the hapless store employee because B&N wasn't clear about the limitations.

 

It's always BN stomping on the little man.

 

... from whom they took money. They're called customers elsewhere.

 

It's always BN employees being so high in their ivory tower that they can't hear the wails of their "true customers". It's never constructive, always destructive. This forum is toxic because no one is willing to say "I dislike this, and I really hope they change it in this manner, but I understand at least the intent behind why it happened this way". There's no reasonable discourse, just hyperbole.

 

What is hyperbolic about the shelving or storage issues? They affect paying customers. They certainly relate to first impressions of a new device.

flyingtoastr
Posts: 3,011
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Registered: ‎11-11-2009

Re: New Glow Light, early impressions


bobstro wrote:

What is hyperbolic about the shelving or storage issues? They affect paying customers. They certainly relate to first impressions of a new device.


 

As the saying goes, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. I happen to agree with most of the people on this forum for a lot of issues (yes, I think dumping the SD card wasn't a great idea, though the SD support for the NST/N1E was always so half-baked I don't personally see much of a difference). I'm willing to bet MG does as well. But your default response in this thread has been "BN is anti-customer!" to everything, even if it's just MG pointing out (in response to the "BN is the only company that does this kind of thing!" response we get here all the time) that feature removal happens everywhere. That isn't constructive, especially when you start lacing it with personal attacks on how BN employees hate kittens.

 


bobstro wrote:

Is that the extent of the B&N DRM relationship to Adobe's? 

 


Getting off topic here:

BN developed their own DRM (BN Social) when they launched the NOOK store. When they launched their devices a few months later, BN also chose to license ADEPT (Adobe Digital Editions DRM) from Adobe. The licensing costs are confidential, but they're estimated around 3 - 5% of the cost of every ebook BN sells.

 

BN doesn't need ADEPT licensing - they have their own DRM solution that they use for free. The only reason they have to do so is to allow BN devices to interface with ADE and sideload books from vendors who do use ADEPT (like Google, Kobo, and Sony). They literally get no financial return from doing so - in fact the licensing hurts BN's bottom line, as it allows customers to purchase ebooks elsewhere and load them onto a NOOK easily.

 

Contrast this with Amazon, who also developed their own DRM solution, kept it proprietary, and won't allow any other DRM'd files on their devices. ADEPT licensing is one of the most consumer-friendly things BN ever did, and they really don't get enough credit for it.

 


bobstro wrote:

(why can't B&N clarify what a fix includes?)


Yeah, well that one stumps me too. I think it involves the intern who is supposed to write patch notes being terrible at his job. Or something. Maybe unicorns.

Distinguished Bibliophile
bobstro
Posts: 3,720
Registered: ‎01-01-2012

Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

[ Edited ]
Ah, we're crossing posts here. I added a bit to the DRM above...
flyingtoastr wrote:
As the saying goes, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.
Yes, FT. If you go into a store with a problem and the salesperson is then overheard complaining about customers who come to them with annoying problems, it might be taken as related. It works both ways.
I happen to agree with most of the people on this forum for a lot of issues [...]
Most of the time, after the dust settles, you make good points. It's your quick, short answers that come across as dismissive.
[...] But your default response in this thread has been "BN is anti-customer!" to everything, even if it's just MG pointing out (in response to the "BN is the only company that does this kind of thing!" response we get here all the time) that feature removal happens everywhere.
The thread subject is first impressions. I actually refrained largely from responding about specifics because I've been hoping there would be a follow-up announcement. In any case, the device doesn't meet my needs in its present form. However, the "happens everywhere" certainly indicates to me failure to understand how important some of these issues are to some of us. Yes, it happens everywhere, but so what? You (B&N -- not you anymore, FT) are trying to sell me this thing. My first impression is that that's a bad way to go about it.
That isn't constructive, especially when you start lacing it with personal attacks on how BN employees hate kittens.
You don't hate kittens. You often give short snarky comments that aren't helpful.

[...] BN developed their own DRM (BN Social) when they launched the NOOK store. When they launched their devices a few months later, BN also chose to license ADEPT (Adobe Digital Editions DRM) from Adobe. The licensing costs are confidential, but they're estimated around 3 - 5% of the cost of every ebook BN sells.

 

Is not BN Social based on ADEPT? My understanding was that B&N had to pay those licensing fees regardless. B&N has to apply DRM to satisfy publishers, and most insist on ADEPT. BN's variant is acceptable to them because it's based on the guarantees of Adobe. Or do I have that wrong?

 

 

[...] The only reason they have to do so is to allow BN devices to interface with ADE and sideload books from vendors who do use ADEPT (like Google, Kobo, and Sony).

 

ADEPT is also a requirement for most DRM-encumbered epub library ebooks, isn't it? B&N advertises library book access as a feature. While the licensing no-doubt costs B&N, it's not done for humanitarian purposes.

 

They literally get no financial return from doing so - in fact the licensing hurts BN's bottom line, as it allows customers to purchase ebooks elsewhere and load them onto a NOOK easily.

 

This could turn into another walled garden thread, which we don't need to rehash. I'd counter that this also lets people migrate from other products to B&N's. There's a positive for B&N underneath, if only picking up Borders refugees.

 

Contrast this with Amazon, who also developed their own DRM solution, kept it proprietary, and won't allow any other DRM'd files on their devices. ADEPT licensing is one of the most consumer-friendly things BN ever did, and they really don't get enough credit for it.

 

You may recall that I've posted to that effect. While I decry DRM overall, B&N's is a better deal for friends and family situations. DRM sucks, but if you have to have it, B&N's is at least more usable.

 

[...] Yeah, well that one stumps me too. I think it involves the intern who is supposed to write patch notes being terrible at his job. Or something. Maybe unicorns.

 

Interns are the new gremlins! Must be the intern that worked at the NTSB: Enid "Mo" Spaice

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laurieb52
Posts: 1,132
Registered: ‎12-13-2009
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

[ Edited ]

Frankly, Bobstro, your arguments would carry a lot more weight if you were a targeted customer. From what I can see, your B&N library contains about 30 books, of which at least half were offered on free Fridays. B&N really doesn't care about offering an ereader at cost to someone who doesn't buy their ebooks or other digital content.

 

It seems you must have graphic intensive ebooks or 1000+ page ebooks if your 250 library cannot sideload to the 500 mg space for non B&N books. I was able to sideload 300 ebooks and still have 200 mg left.

 

As mentioned previously, power users ARE NOT necessarily power customers. Power customers who spend hundreds or thousands a year on ebooks certainly have a right to complain about shelving and storage because they are B&N's bread and butter. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Life's a chair of bowlies...and it's all about Plan B!
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keriflur
Posts: 6,552
Registered: ‎01-05-2010

Re: New Glow Light, early impressions


laurieb52 wrote:

Frankly, Bobstro, your arguments would carry a lot more weight if you were a targeted customer. From what I can see, your B&N library contains about 20 books, of which at least half were offered on free Fridays. B&N really doesn't care about offering an ereader at cost to someone who doesn't buy their ebooks or other digital content.

 

Plus, if you have a library of 250 non B&N books, they will certainly fit on the 500 mg non B&N section of the ereader, with a margin of space for another 200 or so sideloaded ebooks, as long as they are not the more memory intensive graphics heavy pdf's.  or 1000+ page ebooks.  I sideloaded 300 ebooks and still have 200 mg left.

 

As mentioned previously, power users ARE NOT necessarily power customers. Power customers who spend hundreds or thousands a year on ebooks certainly have a right to complain about shelving and storage because they are B&N's bread and butter.

 


How about me?  I BUY all my books, and I buy most of them on release day, meaning I pay the HIGHEST POSSIBLE price.  In the last four years, I've bought over 500 books from B&N, which equates to about $5000 just from me on ebooks only, or $1250 a year.  I've also bought nooks for both of my parents, who now buy ebooks exclusively from B&N (before that they bought no books and just borrowed from the library), and I talked my FIL out of buying my MIL a kindle, and instead he bought her a nook, so ultimately I responsible for the revenue from three other people who buy exclusively from B&N.

 

And I'm complaining about storage and backing Bobstro's issues.  Does that carry enough weight?

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laurieb52
Posts: 1,132
Registered: ‎12-13-2009
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

keri,

You're a power Customer. You can complain all you want.

Life's a chair of bowlies...and it's all about Plan B!
Distinguished Bibliophile
bobstro
Posts: 3,720
Registered: ‎01-01-2012

Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

[ Edited ]
laurieb52 wrote:

Frankly, Bobstro, your arguments would carry a lot more weight if you were a targeted customer.

 

I'm not sure who you think you are to make that assumption, as obnoxious as it is, but let's go with it...

 

From what I can see, your B&N library contains about 30 books, of which at least half were offered on free Fridays. B&N really doesn't care about offering an ereader at cost to someone who doesn't buy their ebooks or other digital content.

 

You're looking at a smattering of 27-odd items I opted to set to publically viewable when I was playing with the B&N social stuff. You don't see all of them. Your detective-fu is weak.

 

Just for fun, though, I went through the last 18 months of purchases that B&N tracks for my personal (no family members) account. I made 57 paid purchases of ebooks, plus $300 in gift cards. B&N says I made 114 purchases over that period. I don't buy anything but ebooks from B&N these days, so safe to say, they were book purchases. Some were $0.99 shorts, but most are in the $10-20 range. Some in the $40+ range. 17 items over that period were freebies. At one point, I had 4 magazine subscriptions with B&N until they stopped working on my NST.

 

Is 3 books per month not a good customer? At an average of $10, that comes to $360 per year, but perhaps you care to use a different average. 

 

The shelving problems most dramtically affects users with far larger collections, but I gave up on managing less than 100 ebooks with it. In any case, there seems to be an upper limit after which it's essentially unusable. What might that be? What is this sweet spot of customers that B&N deems worthy of catering to, not too few yet not too many?

 

It seems you must have graphic intensive ebooks or 1000+ page ebooks if your 250 library cannot sideload to the 500 mg space for non B&N books. I was able to sideload 300 ebooks and still have 200 mg left.

 

I've cited the actual values for the collection of ebooks currently on my eInk reader. These aren't graphic novels (not on a 5 inch Kobo Mini!), but they do have a number of pictures, particularly the programming books with screenshots. They're a mix of fiction and non-fiction, technical and non-technical. Some commercial, some self-generated. All I can tell you is that it is, for me, an average collection of stuff I like to read. I'd be interested to see how other collections weigh in, but mine seem to average about 3.48 MB per title.

 

As mentioned previously, power users ARE NOT necessarily power customers. Power customers who spend hundreds or thousands a year on ebooks certainly have a right to complain about shelving and storage because they are B&N's bread and butter. 

 

I can tell you I easily spend hundreds of dollars per year on ebooks. I spent several hundred over the last 18 months just on gift cards to make purchases easier (different CC#, fewer dings against my corporate card). I've also purchased 6 NOOK devices since they shipped (2 NST, 3 NC, 1 NT). Do I meet your criteria for a "customer of good intent"? (Shades of 5ivedom here!) How do your numbers stack up, Laurie? Care to share? (Nice to be asked, isn't it?)

 

I buy devices. I buy ebooks. How am I not B&N's target demographic?

 

I will go update my profile page since apparently somebody does look at it. I'm surprised that the actual percentage of my purchases from B&N is so high, now that I look at it. Must make sure geeky hobby titles aren't listed!

 

Always read something that will make you look good if you die in the middle of it.

– P.J. O’Rourke

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BFCoughlin
Posts: 651
Registered: ‎03-08-2011

Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

<<People asked for the homescreen to be cleaned up.  Done.  It's a very clean UI there now, and it allows you to see the books you've been reading and the book you're reading now.<<

 

I love the new home screen. My biggest gripe with the NST (not that I had many) was that it only offered easy access to the last book that I read on it.  Typically, I read three or four books and once, switching among them.  I'd usually have to search for any book other than the one I had just immediately been reading.  Now, the home page shows my the last three.  Big improvement for me. 

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keriflur
Posts: 6,552
Registered: ‎01-05-2010
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions


BFCoughlin wrote:

<<People asked for the homescreen to be cleaned up.  Done.  It's a very clean UI there now, and it allows you to see the books you've been reading and the book you're reading now.<<

 

I love the new home screen. My biggest gripe with the NST (not that I had many) was that it only offered easy access to the last book that I read on it.  Typically, I read three or four books and once, switching among them.  I'd usually have to search for any book other than the one I had just immediately been reading.  Now, the home page shows my the last three.  Big improvement for me. 


I use the library sorted by "recent" for this purpose.  It works like a charm. :smileyhappy:

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Mercury_Glitch
Posts: 1,380
Registered: ‎06-07-2011
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Re: New Glow Light, early impressions


keriflur wrote:

BFCoughlin wrote:

<<People asked for the homescreen to be cleaned up.  Done.  It's a very clean UI there now, and it allows you to see the books you've been reading and the book you're reading now.<<

 

I love the new home screen. My biggest gripe with the NST (not that I had many) was that it only offered easy access to the last book that I read on it.  Typically, I read three or four books and once, switching among them.  I'd usually have to search for any book other than the one I had just immediately been reading.  Now, the home page shows my the last three.  Big improvement for me. 


I use the library sorted by "recent" for this purpose.  It works like a charm. :smileyhappy:


That still works on the NGL, but the homescreen option works better as the 'n' button brings you to the homescreen directly now. 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and we are only the thread of the Pattern.
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keriflur
Posts: 6,552
Registered: ‎01-05-2010

Re: New Glow Light, early impressions

So you HAVE to use the home screen? Eew.