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DaveAvl
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Registered: ‎04-20-2011
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Re: New NT root method boots from SD card


TnTexas wrote:

But N2A cards, on the Color at least, don't root the device. They provide a totally different operating system for the Color to run off of without touching its internal coding at all. That's one of their selling points. I'm assuming an N2A card for the Tablet would work the same way. Since it won't change any internals on the Tablet (take the card out and you're right back to the stock interface, nothing's been touched there), the biggest risk would simply be getting a card that doesn't work; wouldn't it?

 

 

ETA:  Hopefully somebody who's better informed than I am can clarify the situation for us, but I just looked at the thread DaveAvl linked to. And from my (granted, limited) understanding, it's talking about a totally different process than what is provided by an N2A card.


At some point, when the software is sufficiently debugged, then I'd expect the NT version of a boot-from-SD card to work the same as the NC version.  But to the best of my understanding, the NT software just isn't there yet, if it's the software discussed at

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1481826 .

 

Looking at the first post to that thread, there's a section titled "SD Card Version." That's the only source I've found in the NT section of xda-developers for a bootable Android card.  That's the one which has been withdrawn by its developers for further work... look for the red type above the disclaimer in that thread's first post.  What happened (as explained later in that thread) was that a formatting operation which was supposed to happen on the SD card took place in the NT's internal memory instead, and wiped out part of the system software.  So although it shouldn't have changed any internals in the NT, it did.

 

Maybe I've jumped to an unwarranted conclusion... if the N2A card uses different software than what's been withdrawn from that thread at xda-developers, it could be just fine.  I have no way of knowing one way or the other.  Could the vendor of those cards clear that point up for us? :smileyhappy:

 

 

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Nom-de-Nook
Posts: 956
Registered: ‎08-06-2010
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Re: New NT root method boots from SD card

You would probably have better luck with your specific questions in the forums and support areas at the N2A site.

DeanGibson
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More than one cook ...


DaveAvl wrote:

My NC also has a roll-your-own card which works well.  The problem here is that the NT software is bleeding-edge, not just leading-edge.


I am not familiar with exactly what is in the N2A cards. but note that there are MULTIPLE development efforts in progress, producing MULTIPLE implementations and VERSIONS of Android.

 

Since a lot (most?) of the current XDA development is using Android 4.0, it wouldn't surprise me if that version was highly beta, while a simple port of N2A from the NC to the NT would be using a different version (or build).

 

Absent a clear claim to the contrary, people should not assume that XDA development processes are coordinated.  Heck, I know of four different rooting methods for the NT that were loosely coordinated at best.  Given the egos involved in the XDA forums, I can't imagine that it's much different for a complete bootable system.

2 Nook HD/8GB + 2 Nook HD+/16GB: B&N 2.2.0 rooted
2 Nook Touch (one Ltd. Ed.): B&N 1.2.1 rooted; Dell Venue 8 Pro: Windows 8.1
2 Nook 1stEd/3G: B&N 1.7.0 rooted.; Acer Iconia A500: Android 4.0.3 rooted;
Nook Color: B&N 1.4.3 rooted; Samsung Galaxy Tab2 (7.0"): Android 4.2.2 rooted
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rozsea
Posts: 36
Registered: ‎11-24-2011

Re: More than one cook ...

We will find out sooner than many expected.  I ordered an N2A card for the Tablet on Sunday.  Their web site indicated they will start shipping on 2/10, but I've received an e-mail from them and mine has already shipped.  Estimated delivery date is 2/10.

 

I decided to go with this after reading many posts on these forums about the N2A card for the Color.  People seem pleased with those cards and with the support they've received from N2A.  N2A makes the same claims about their card for the Tablet that they make for the Color, i.e. that it will not void your warranty.

 

I arrived at this decision after briefly trying a 7" Galaxy Tab Plus and realizing how much better I liked the native e-reader and the screens on the Nooks.  The Nook app for android on the Galaxy just wasn't the same, but I was tired of waiting for B&N to support Overdrive Media Console and I really wanted the Kindle app, since I already have some Kindle books and no longer have a Kindle.  I had sideloaded the Kindle app before my Tablet updated to 1.4.1, but after 1.4.1 the whole Tablet became unstable with the SD card inserted.  I was going to just make my own CM7 card for the Color, but every time I looked for the CM7 files I got a message saying the site was off line.  Originally looked at the N2A site to get a card for the Color (my Color is old enough to be out of warranty anyway, and has very low resale/tradein value, so the risk seemed minimal) but when I saw that they were selling a card for the Tablet within a few days, I decided "why not?"  Hope I don't regret it!  

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roustabout
Posts: 3,609
Registered: ‎03-31-2011

Re: More than one cook ...

The threads I've been seeing on XDA make me agree that this may be a highly premature release of a for-money card.  I think there are wrinkles to internal versus external storage in the NT that are not yet understood at all. 

 

That's not a criticism of anyone working on CM7 -- it's very early days yet and no one on the CM7 group I've seen at work is selling anything or making claims of readiness or marketability.  It is a criticism of the n2a folks.  Even if their card is their very own project, either they have not explained their method of addressing this or (more likely) they have rushed a release to market. 

 

Over the weekend, the Cyanogen Mod 7 build project was farther along than CM9 (ICS) as far as I could see. The n2a card is a Gingerbread card, so that points to CM7 as being the project most of interest to them. 

 

The CM7 project had both an internally-installable and an SD bootable version of their release.  It sounds as if n2a is looking to an SD card version, which will leave the internal files alone if you let it and if it operates as intended

 

It starts life as a bootable SD card, and so there's overlap in its construction with the other bootable cards, including bootable cards which are intended to root the native OS, to install Clockwork to internal memory, etc.  Hence some of the confusion.

 

What was going on over the weekend was a situation where some users of the CM7 setup were issuing format commands to what should have been the SD card.  Instead of applying the commands to the SD card and extending a partition on it, the commands were being applied to one or more of the partitions on the internal memory. 

 

Once the bug came to light, a fix for hosed NTs was made available very quickly and the project took its files offline to further examine the issues. 

 

Given that there seem to be some commands that a bootable card can issue which should (according to the GUI) be targeting the SD card but which are in fact targeting the internal memory, as of now I wouldn't think that the n2a card for the NT is as safe as it is for the NC.

 

I spent a fair amount of time over the weekend studying the effects of modifying vold.fstab and vold.conf on my device, and comparing the contents of those files to the files from the NC and from other Gingerbread devices.  I emerged confused at how challenging it had proved to do what I'd hoped, mount the internal memory as both the sdcard and the internal memory when viewed from the GUI.

 

It's not difficult to do from the commandline, but the GUI (and Root Explorer) report that the sdcard is unmounted even when the internal memory is mounted, whether by /dev/block/mmcblk0 syntax, by mount-by-name syntax, or by /dev/block/vold/179:10

 

My guess is that the OS is aware of a hardware arrival event triggered by seating the card and the GUI will not recognize the lower-level mount commands unless physical memeory is inserted. 

 

I am, for instance, able to insert physical memory, then unmount it and mount the internal memory and work with files on internal memory from the GUI. 

 

(I was doing the experiment for a couple of reasons, one being that the sdcard mount at boot time is flaky in my hands, another being that I'm running a birdwatching app that stupidly refuses to install or run unless it has a storage card.  Since I've redone my partitioning such that I have 9 gig of storage available to me as /media, I would much rather have /media and /sdcard point to the same place most of the time and would love to succeed in setting up a second node, perhaps at /sdcard/external, where an inserted card would mount - a behavior I've seen in a few Gingerbread devices and which honestly annoyed me the first time I saw it, as it meant that Titanium would back up to internal memory by default, but which has advantages once you get used to it.) 

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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TnTexas
Posts: 883
Registered: ‎10-22-2011

Re: More than one cook ...

roustabout: What was going on over the weekend was a situation where some users of the CM7 setup were issuing format commands to what should have been the SD card.  Instead of applying the commands to the SD card and extending a partition on it, the commands were being applied to one or more of the partitions on the internal memory. 

 

So the people who were making their own cards from the once-provided files were making mistakes while they were creating the card? Is that what you're saying? If that's the case and assuming the N2A people have formatted their cards correctly then the cards should be safe since the problem was error on the creator's part and not within the files themselves. Right? Just trying to make sure I'm understanding the situation correctly. Not being a techie-type person these kinds of conversations lose me very quickly.

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roustabout
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Re: More than one cook ...

[ Edited ]

TNT asks "making mistakes while they were creating the card?  Is that what you're saying?"

 

No, not at all.  

 

People had successfully made a copy of a very early release of a bootable Gingerbread OS and booted from it. 

 

They were then issuing very normal housekeeping commands in the Gingerbread environment, called CM7 in this case, but very close to a stock Android graphical environment.  

 

The commands were running wrong.

 

Given that these commands are capable of wiping out parts of the NT that must be present for a successful boot, that's a very large bug.  It's exactly the kind of thing that the XDA audience should know to expect in the early days of a project.  

 

It's exactly the kind of thing that an n2a card buyer should never need to know or think about.  

 

I would not recommend buying or using these cards until the XDA folks fully iron this one out, or until the n2a folks share their fix for this with the XDA community.  

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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TnTexas
Posts: 883
Registered: ‎10-22-2011
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Re: More than one cook ...

roustabout: They were then issuing very normal housekeeping commands in the Gingerbread environment, called CM7 in this case, but very close to a stock Android graphical environment.  

 

Ok. What kind of commands might that include? I'm trying to remember what I did with my n2a-running Nook color that would fall under that category. Are you talking abot buying and installing apps, forcing closing an app that isn't working, deleting unwanted apps - that kind of thing? Those are the kinds of things I think of when I hear the phrase "housekeeping commands".

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roustabout
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Re: More than one cook ...

[ Edited ]

The command that was making trouble was a command to format an area (partition) on the sd card if I understand it right.  (It was a formatting command.)  

 

This is something you might do if your n2a card had gotten a storage area corrupted, for instance.  (I have not used the product, but if I understand it correctly it includes both an Android area that your PC cannot see and a shared area that both your PC and your n2a OS can see.)  

 

Instead of formatting that part of the sd card, the part of the device that was formatted was an early partition on the internal memory.  

 

That's huge - wrong bit of the NT getting the command, and that part of the device being absolutely required to  boot.   

 

I just took a spin through XDA;  it doesn't look to me as if the alpha - and the devs are calling this an alpha - is even available for download any longer.  I don't know what n2a intends to release, but either it's this release (most likely given their history) or it's their own modification - but if it's the latter, they are not contributing input to the cm7 project on XDA explaining their fix.  

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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TnTexas
Posts: 883
Registered: ‎10-22-2011

Re: More than one cook ...

[ Edited ]

roustabout: The command that was making trouble was a command to format an area (partition) on the sd card if I understand it right.  (It was a formatting command.)  

 

This is something you might do if your n2a card had gotten a storage area corrupted, for instance.  (I have not used the product, but if I understand it correctly it includes both an Android area that your PC cannot see and a shared area that both your PC and your n2a OS can see.)

 

I don't know about a shared area either; there very well could be one. But if I'm understanding the rest of what you said, someone shouldn't have a problem with the card as long as he/she doesn't mess with it and try to reformat it. Regular use like buying and installing apps, force closing them when necessary and uninstalling them shouldn't pose a problem. Is that correct? I ask because that's the only way I used the card I got for my Color. I never would have dreamed of trying to reformat it since that's a major reason why I bought it in the first place - so I wouldn't have to do things like that. If it had become corrupted, I would have simply replaced the card - not tried to fix it.

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roustabout
Posts: 3,609
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Re: More than one cook ...

Although you personally may never have decided to wipe a partition, it really is a pretty normal thing to do now and again.

 

It's not nearly as hard as remaking the entire card - it's like formatting a floppy disk before using it.  

 

More to the point, though, if the format command does not know what part of the NT it's talking to (internal memory or SD card) what other parts of the OS are similarly confused at this early date?  

 

Hence, my strong caution about buying one of these right now.   

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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n2ative
Posts: 53
Registered: ‎09-18-2011
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Re: More than one cook ...

Posted to facebook earlier toay:

 

Nook2Android Just to let everyone know, there is a delay and we do not want to ship it until it is tested and stable. We decided to change the release date to Feb 15th to allow more time to do so. We are very sorry for the delay but we want to make sure everything is perfect before you receive your new N2A card.
3 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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bobstro
Posts: 3,722
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Re: More than one cook ...

[ Edited ]

It's never too soon to start advertising!

 

The scary thing is, it sounds like N2A was ready to release until the actual devs yanked it.

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rozsea
Posts: 36
Registered: ‎11-24-2011
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Re: More than one cook ...

My credit card has already been billed for this non-existent card, and N2A has not yet given me any indication that there is a problem or that my card did not indeed ship on 2/6.  I chose N2A because so many people said they had great support, but now I don't quite know what to think.  So if the card does show up in the mail today, what do I do?

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BarryV
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Registered: ‎12-27-2011
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Re: More than one cook ...

(My credit card has already been billed for this non-existent card, and N2A has not yet given me any indication that there is a problem or that my card did not indeed ship on 2/6.  I chose N2A because so many people said they had great support, but now I don't quite know what to think.  So if the card does show up in the mail today, what do I do?)



This was posted on facebook yesteday:

Nook2Android Just to let everyone know, there is a delay and we do not want to ship it until it is tested and stable. We decided to change the release date to Feb 15th to allow more time to do so. We are very sorry for the delay but we want to make sure everything is perfect before you receive your new N2A card.

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rozsea
Posts: 36
Registered: ‎11-24-2011
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Re: More than one cook ...

I do not use Facebook, so did not see this post.  Regardless, I think N2A should have contacted me directly to tell me that the card had been delayed; I should not have to read it on Facebook or find out about it by reading this forum, at least not after they have charged me for it and notified me that it has shipped.

 

That being said, I did contact N2A and get a response and an apology, so for now I'm satisfied.  They claim the problem has been solved and the cards will ship by 2/15.

 

I don't mind waiting for a working product.

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BayportBob
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Registered: ‎08-26-2010
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Re: More than one cook ...

really, you should go to the forum on the product website and ask specific questions if you find something that concerns you that you might have found on any other website or facebook or twitter or......................     just sayin'

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roustabout
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Registered: ‎03-31-2011
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Re: More than one cook ...

If I were an n2a card shopper, I would wait until it's obvious that the XDA folks working on Cyanogen Mod 7 are ready and their build has a month or three of testing behind it. 

 

Early CM7 builds for the NC had very short battery lives compared to stock.  It really seems like n2a is ready to ship a product based on a very lightly tested piece of development. 

 

It's essentially luckly for all concerned that the idea of the n2a card didn't emerge until the NC build of CM7 had a lot of testing already done;  this seems to be a very hasty rush to ship a product that almost certainly won't be as nice at launch as the original was. 

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
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rozsea
Posts: 36
Registered: ‎11-24-2011
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Re: More than one cook ...

I did go the N2A web site and post on their forums about this.  The response I received there was that the forums are run by volunteers with no more information than I had.  The only indication of a problem anywhere on that site was the change in the anticipated ship date. 

 

I did not get a response until I directly e-mailed them, by replying to the message that they originally sent saying the card had shipped.

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poiuy
Posts: 104
Registered: ‎10-09-2011
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Re: More than one cook ...

___________________________________________

I did go the N2A web site and post on their forums about this.  The response I received there was that the forums are run by volunteers with no more information than I had.

___________________________________________

 

Same setup as here, we're the last to know.  :smileyvery-happy: