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orb9220
Posts: 1,195
Registered: ‎06-16-2010
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So Why can't B&N do it?

From the Amazon Kindle world.

 

"The gift card option is your solution if you don’t want to add a credit card or debit card to your account. You’ll still have to provide a default billing address, but instead of a credit or debit card number you can enter the code on a gift card and the available balance will be used each time you make a 1-Click purchase."

 

So what am I missing about the why's of B&N needing a credit card? And why I can't use a gift card like at Amazon or Apple without the need to do a credit card?

 

Curious about the "Because that's the way B&N does it!" model. Isn't a satsifying morsel to swallow.

 

And wondering if others think that is a major negative selling and marketing point for B&N. As at the store I was mislead a bit. As ask them if I could purchase ebooks with gift cards and they said yes. Tho they didn't atriculate that a CC is required also.

 

My bad as I made a fatal assumption based on what the rest of vendors out there where doing with gift cards and made a supportless assumption after they said yes. And didn't dig for more details.

.

 

"All I Know is...Last Night the Tele-Tubbies came out of the wall and Held Me Down while they put Devices in my Head!"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/orb9220/
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vvlovesu
Posts: 92
Registered: ‎12-31-2010
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?

Well I think that it's mostly just a back up reassurance for them to make sure they get their money. I doubt that they will change this becuase it's not like they're stealing your information or your money. Also it doesn't have to be a CC my DC is on my account. ALSO, in many states you cannot get BN gift cards like where I am. It's 3 BN stores in my entire state. The only way to get a gift card would be drive 3.5 hours to the nearest store. I imagine there's many states like that. So it makes since to require a CC or DC, and it would be unfair to change that just for those with access to gift cards.

Reading isn't a "hobby". It's a lifestyle.
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Ya_Ya
Posts: 3,334
Registered: ‎09-29-2010

Re: So Why can't B&N do it?


orb9220 wrote:

 

So what am I missing about the why's of B&N needing a credit card? And why I can't use a gift card like at Amazon or Apple without the need to do a credit card?

 

Curious about the "Because that's the way B&N does it!" model. Isn't a satsifying morsel to swallow. 


This is copied (with a few edits) from another of my posts, but it applies here as well:

 

Every content-seller has a DRM scheme.


Kindle's DRM scheme limits the number of devices a book can be displayed on -- for most things it's 6, but some it's 2 or even 1.  The other epub sellers (excluding Apple) use Adobe Adept which limits the book to only being displayed on devices registered to the same ADE account.

 

B&N uses Adobe's Social DRM which allows a purchased book to be displayed on an unlimited number of devices as long as one has access to the unlock information, ie; name and credit card number on file as default when the book is downloaded.  So, I can place my own books on any number of devices as long as I'm willing to type my credit card number into them.  (And, it can't be reverse-engineered -- so if the device is lost, someone finds it, they can't get my card number back out and buy things.)

 

It's the least-restrictive DRM scheme and one of the things I most like about B&N/NOOK.  I've shared a few books with my father-in-law and another few with my BFF, which I couldn't do if the books had come from any of the other vendors.

 

I really hope they don't change it.  :smileywink:

 

I understand why this DRM scheme doesn't work for some, and perhaps NOOK isn't the device for them.  But, for those for whom it works, it works very, very well.  

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vvlovesu
Posts: 92
Registered: ‎12-31-2010
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?

Very well said

Reading isn't a "hobby". It's a lifestyle.
Distinguished Bibliophile
roustabout
Posts: 3,571
Registered: ‎03-31-2011

Re: So Why can't B&N do it?

YaYa writes " if the device is lost, someone finds it, they can't get my card number back out and buy things"

 

I am not 100% clear that this is true.  From what I have read, some of the implementations of this DRM do, in fact, leave the information in a database on the computer that's reading them.  If the database can be accessed, the card and name are at risk. 

 

I have also seen an argument that the hash used in the file itself is well within the range of reversible functions, because it contains quite a lot of very predictable information - the number of digits and their values in a card # is highly constrained.  The content of a file, if it's a book that you already know something about, is completely constrained.  That leaves the name as the biggest source of wildcard data, but again it's actually pretty constrained - 26 values per position. 

 

On the scale of things to be concerned about, using a credit card to pay for dinner out is probably much higher - you're handing over a card to someone you don't know;  there's no SSL involved :smileyhappy:

 

Still, many folks recommend using a one-time number from your card issuer in preference to a credit or debit card for registering your BN device and purchases. 

 

I think that's a good recommendation, in part because what I know of the trust they put in the hashing in their files, and what we learned with the release of the Nook Tab about their software audit process together don't give me a really warm fuzzy about just how secure data in transit through BN necessarily is.  I'm more concerned about the risk of their servers being popped and perhaps having a store of unencrypted card data available than I am about my device being compromised. 

 

This is in no small part because I take my devices apart and give them the full Gene Hackman / Enemy of the State treatment, complete with radio frequency detonators. 

 

(and it is a source of disappointment that I cannot locate a clip to link to of the scene in question.) 

 

 

"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
Inspired Contributor
BeachCatFan
Posts: 242
Registered: ‎09-06-2011

Re: So Why can't B&N do it?

I'm sorry, but I just do not see why this is such a big deal!

 

You give your credit card to strangers every time you use it. You give your credit card number to nameless, faceless people every time you order something online. If you think everyone out there is trying to steal your credit card information or your identity every day, then just cut your credit card up and use cash................and sideload library books only to your NOOK.

 

 

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Ya_Ya
Posts: 3,334
Registered: ‎09-29-2010
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?


roustabout wrote:

YaYa writes " if the device is lost, someone finds it, they can't get my card number back out and buy things"

 

I am not 100% clear that this is true.  From what I have read, some of the implementations of this DRM do, in fact, leave the information in a database on the computer that's reading them.  If the database can be accessed, the card and name are at risk. 



Well, someone capable of doing this is probably smart enough to not worry themselves over my pitififul little credit limit; they'd go after someone with way more money than I have.  :smileylol:

 

Seriously, though, there's no such thing as complete security when dealing with credit in our modern world, short of not using anything other than cash, and while I may be lax, I try not to dwell on the worst-case scenarios....

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tuck229
Posts: 177
Registered: ‎09-02-2011
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?

Ya Ya makes a very good point indeed.  I prefer B&N's DRM method.  I imagine a family all sharing one e-reader account would be a major pain in the butt.  I like being able to buy a book, and then if I want to share it, side load it to my teenage sons' Nooks or other family members' Nooks.  I give B&N a thumbs up for their method. 

 

 

I did not want my two sons sharing my Nook account because I didn't like the idea of common books getting all out of sync when two people happened to be reading the same title.  Or that a book like the Bible would be unable to have independednt notes and highlights. 

 

I used a pre-paid American Express debit card to set up my sons' Nook accounts.  It worked just fine.  Now they each have their own account and can't use up the other's gift card balances.  They can buy whatever books/apps they want without running up my credit card bill and without having to ask me to type in a password every time.  I don't know what is so special about AmEx, but Visa pre-paid debit did not work.  I'd suggest doing this.  It's like a $4 investment to buy the card.  However, be sure to keep the card even after it is at a zero balance and worthless.  The card number is attached to the DRM of every book you purchase and will be needed if you ever side load a copy of it to another Nook or computer.

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Ya_Ya
Posts: 3,334
Registered: ‎09-29-2010

Re: So Why can't B&N do it?


tuck229 wrote:

 However, be sure to keep the card even after it is at a zero balance and worthless.  The card number is attached to the DRM of every book you purchase and will be needed if you ever side load a copy of it to another Nook or computer.


If you were to throw the card away, all you'd have to do is archive the book, delete the copy downloaded from your NOOK for PC downloads, then redownload it.  It would then be encrypted using the current default credit card; it's the card at the time of download, not the time of purchase.

 

They're usually the same, but not always.

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petesnook
Posts: 381
Registered: ‎12-08-2010
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?


Ya_Ya wrote:


If you were to throw the card away, all you'd have to do is archive the book, delete the copy downloaded from your NOOK for PC downloads, then redownload it.  It would then be encrypted using the current default credit card; it's the card at the time of download, not the time of purchase.

 

They're usually the same, but not always.


Nice to know, Ya_Ya.  Thanks. A laurel to you.

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NikiGunn
Posts: 158
Registered: ‎01-28-2010
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?


vvlovesu wrote:

ALSO, in many states you cannot get BN gift cards like where I am. It's 3 BN stores in my entire state. The only way to get a gift card would be drive 3.5 hours to the nearest store.


Do you have a Best Buy nearby? You can buy them there. I think most places that sell Nooks sell gift cards, too. Try Target, Costco, CVS, grocery stores, places that sell lots of gift cards.

 

I used to buy mine at Best Buy for the Reward Zone points until I found out their Reward Zone Online Mall gives extra points if you click through there. I buy the egift card from the B&N website but after clicking through so I get 3 points for every dollar. Then, I buy my ebooks the same way, getting another 3 points. It makes the gift certificates rack up faster.

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BFCoughlin
Posts: 649
Registered: ‎03-08-2011
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?


BeachCatFan wrote:

I'm sorry, but I just do not see why this is such a big deal!

 

You give your credit card to strangers every time you use it. You give your credit card number to nameless, faceless people every time you order something online. If you think everyone out there is trying to steal your credit card information or your identity every day, then just cut your credit card up and use cash................and sideload library books only to your NOOK.

 

 


I'm with you on that.  It's just not a big deal to me.  I bought a Nook, and I buy Nook books from B&N.  sure, there's a risk iin just having a credit card; but in our society, most of have accounts that hold onto our credit card numbers from convenience.  This is just one of them.

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kcladyz
Posts: 126
Registered: ‎04-23-2011
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?

What is making me to want to go to another book ereader is they will try every credit card on file till one pays. EVEN if you go online and remove a credit card they have it stored behind the scenes and can and will charge on it. i know this for a fact for it happened to me

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Nevermore1
Posts: 632
Registered: ‎04-13-2010

Re: So Why can't B&N do it?


vvlovesu wrote:

Well I think that it's mostly just a back up reassurance for them to make sure they get their money. I doubt that they will change this becuase it's not like they're stealing your information or your money. Also it doesn't have to be a CC my DC is on my account. ALSO, in many states you cannot get BN gift cards like where I am. It's 3 BN stores in my entire state. The only way to get a gift card would be drive 3.5 hours to the nearest store. I imagine there's many states like that. So it makes since to require a CC or DC, and it would be unfair to change that just for those with access to gift cards.


I don't mean to sound like a smart a$$ so apologies in advance if I do. :smileywink:  You don't need to purchase a physical gift card unless you only want to use cash to purchase them.  You could purchase a gift card online through the BN website then add the card to your BN acct.  I usually do the GC's I get for myself this way so that I don;t have a buch of little plastic cards laying around and possibly getting lost.  I keep the e-mailed GC in my inbox until I have used it so I have a record of it in case it mysteriously disappears from my acct (I have read of some people having this issue but have never had it happen myself) up then delete the e-mail once I have used up the balance on the card.  So far I have had no issues with purchasing the GC's online and usually receive them within 5 minutes.

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orb9220
Posts: 1,195
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?

Thanks all for taking the time to respond. And understand the workarounds. But still feel B&N is missing out on revenues. As gifting others with e-book GC is still the assumption other has CC and they want to tie it to a B&N account. Or missing the perfect Grandpa & Grandma gift to their grandchildren without Ma & Pa having to intervene setting up and jumping thru hoops to get books on their childrens devices without the alternate CC workarounds.

 

And not interested here to whine about B&N so much as expand the options customers have. As can gift card a I-tunes to teens and kids and know they can use it without hassling their parents. And as to Amazon limiting to number of devices. Sure but for the majority of us is not a concern. As we read on one or maybe two or three devices max.

 

And know for a fact it could be done if B&N was motivated. As A GC with a unique series of numbers can be encrypted to drm and unique device number as easily as CC can.

 

And yep agree that no system is going to cover all situations and all users needs. But this seem to me like a no-brainer easy to implement and put monies in B&N's pockets affair.

 

Or it could just be me and my limited perspective and limited knowledge of limitations from a business sense why it isn't a good idea. Was just a musing of mine and thought to get feedback from others. Which helps me modify my understanding of a situation.

.

 

 

"All I Know is...Last Night the Tele-Tubbies came out of the wall and Held Me Down while they put Devices in my Head!"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/orb9220/
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geertm
Posts: 1,188
Registered: ‎02-09-2010

Re: So Why can't B&N do it?


orb9220 wrote:

Thanks all for taking the time to respond. And understand the workarounds. But still feel B&N is missing out on revenues. As gifting others with e-book GC is still the assumption other has CC and they want to tie it to a B&N account. Or missing the perfect Grandpa & Grandma gift to their grandchildren without Ma & Pa having to intervene setting up and jumping thru hoops to get books on their childrens devices without the alternate CC workarounds.

 

And not interested here to whine about B&N so much as expand the options customers have. As can gift card a I-tunes to teens and kids and know they can use it without hassling their parents. And as to Amazon limiting to number of devices. Sure but for the majority of us is not a concern. As we read on one or maybe two or three devices max.

 

And know for a fact it could be done if B&N was motivated. As A GC with a unique series of numbers can be encrypted to drm and unique device number as easily as CC can.

 

And yep agree that no system is going to cover all situations and all users needs. But this seem to me like a no-brainer easy to implement and put monies in B&N's pockets affair.

 

Or it could just be me and my limited perspective and limited knowledge of limitations from a business sense why it isn't a good idea. Was just a musing of mine and thought to get feedback from others. Which helps me modify my understanding of a situation.

.

 

 


You are missing the point of a social DRM. The DRM is there to prevent sharing of a book. With a social DRM there are no technical restrictions to prevent sharing of a book (like a Kindle  book being tied to the hardware ID of a specific ereader). Instead the information used to encrypt the books needs to be something you do not want to share, or put on the Internet.

You probably do not want to share your credit card number and name with too many people, or put it on the Internet. But you are lot more likely to share a gift card number, or put it on the Internet. So the social part of the DRM would not work.

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orb9220
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?

[ Edited ]

"You are missing the point of a social DRM. The DRM is there to prevent sharing of a book. With a social DRM there are no technical restrictions to prevent sharing of a book (like a Kindle  book being tied to the hardware ID of a specific ereader). Instead the information used to encrypt the books needs to be something you do not want to share, or put on the Internet."

 

What's that got to do with Unique numbered Gift Cards tied to the Nook Hardware ID. As that would prevent sharing on other then registered devices? Must be missing something here?

 

As all I want to promote is Gift Cards capable of purchasing ebooks for people like kids that don't do CC.

What difference would it make if  a CC or GC number is encrypted DRM for a specific device. They both would only allow on that device or if they wanted on any registered B&N devices.

 

And nope sorry don't get the "Don't want us to share ebook" argument. As can do many things with a DTB share,sell,give.

.

"All I Know is...Last Night the Tele-Tubbies came out of the wall and Held Me Down while they put Devices in my Head!"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/orb9220/
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ProfReader
Posts: 1,135
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?


orb9220 wrote:

"You are missing the point of a social DRM. The DRM is there to prevent sharing of a book. With a social DRM there are no technical restrictions to prevent sharing of a book (like a Kindle  book being tied to the hardware ID of a specific ereader). Instead the information used to encrypt the books needs to be something you do not want to share, or put on the Internet."

 

What's that got to do with Unique numbered Gift Cards tied to the Nook Hardware ID. As that would prevent sharing on other then registered devices? Must be missing something here?

 

As all I want to promote is Gift Cards capable of purchasing ebooks for people like kids that don't do CC.

What difference would it make if  a CC or GC number is encrypted DRM for a specific device. They both would only allow on that device or if they wanted on any registered B&N devices.

 

And nope sorry don't get the "Don't want us to share ebook" argument. As can do many things with a DTB share,sell,give.

.


The purpose is so books are not tied to a device or an account. This makes it the most flexible of all the the copy protection methods. It is the best method that has been devised so far. If it doesn't work for you get somethng else.

Bibliophile
bklvr896
Posts: 4,781
Registered: ‎12-31-2009

Re: So Why can't B&N do it?


orb9220 wrote:

"You are missing the point of a social DRM. The DRM is there to prevent sharing of a book. With a social DRM there are no technical restrictions to prevent sharing of a book (like a Kindle  book being tied to the hardware ID of a specific ereader). Instead the information used to encrypt the books needs to be something you do not want to share, or put on the Internet."

 

What's that got to do with Unique numbered Gift Cards tied to the Nook Hardware ID. As that would prevent sharing on other then registered devices? Must be missing something here?

 

As all I want to promote is Gift Cards capable of purchasing ebooks for people like kids that don't do CC.

What difference would it make if  a CC or GC number is encrypted DRM for a specific device. They both would only allow on that device or if they wanted on any registered B&N devices.

 

And nope sorry don't get the "Don't want us to share ebook" argument. As can do many things with a DTB share,sell,give.

.


I think you are missing the point in that the B&N DRM isn't tied to a device, most people apparently don't want it tied to a device and B&N isn't going to set up multiple DRM schemes.  You're confusing the two systems.  You don't need encrypted gift card/cc or other numbers if you tie the book to the devices registered to the account.  They simply can't be read on other devices.  With B&N DRM you're not limited to the devices registered to the account, it can be read on any device where you are willing to input the cc number.

 

As far as the Don't want us to share ebook" argument, I don't entirely understand your sentence, but the fact that you can share a DTB with anyone is irrelevant to the discussion, the DRM is to prevent you from easily sharing the books, because they don't want you to be able to.  That's why it's on the books to begin with.

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joestravels
Posts: 69
Registered: ‎04-25-2011
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Re: So Why can't B&N do it?

I too am not happy with this. I had to register a credit card to use the gift card I thought I read that if you run out of money from the gift card the balance come from your gift card. Is it a credit card make money thing?