The tablet wars are on. [ Edited ]

[TnTexas]

DeanGibson: 2. If your prices are too low (in order to support the sale of other products), some customers will buy the low-priced product and then find a work-around to buying the offsetting product.

It occurs to me that there's something else to consider here, though. While the initial customer of these circumstances may not provide a lot of extra revenue himself, there's always the possibility that he may be responsible for quite a bit of extra revenue through recommendations of the device to others - people who will use the device to buy things from B&N. 

 .

Flyingtoastr: Pretty much the first thing mentioned whenever rooting comes up on these boards is "you can install the Kindle app!". You're making the assumption that the people who want an "open" BN tablet are still going to help offset the subsidized price by buying BN content, when that strongly doesn't appear to be the case from a number of the "modders" just here on this forum.

If I were a BN exec I would consider people like that a lost cause anyway. *shrug*

They may be a lost cause personally, but what about what those who come to them for advice about what product to buy? Most of those would probably use the device as intended. 

[bobstro]

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DeanGibson wrote:
[...] Why is that not good for B&N, if those customers are not making money for B&N ???  This is the assumption that gets repeated here over and over, that the loss of "customers" is, ipso facto ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipso_facto ) bad for B&N.  The motorcycle manufacturers are not upset by the loss of customers that want to use the motorcycle to tow their boats.

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I don't agree that using a NOOK to its potential is in the realm of unreasonable expectations alongside boat-towing bikes (or anything else). I also don't think that we "techies" are the only market share B&N's strategy is losing. So long as "app availabiity" remains one of the criteria on which B&N NOOK devices are compared to Amazon Fire devices, I think it will result in loss of sales lost to Amazon. After all, the techies already know how to circumvent B&N's restrictions (so far). It's the non-technical folks reading the comparisons and take them at face value when reading that app and media selection favors picking Amazon. I'm not talking about rooting, only breadth of app and media selection.

I certainly have no numbers better than anybody elses, but I do recall that until recently, ease of rooting or booting alternate firmware was often cited as a plus in some of the same review sources. Now, there's no mention of that. Is that a plus or minus to B&N sales? I suspect the latter. So long as the app selection remains meager -- as cited in the media -- then this seems to be a losing battle for B&N. A fix of any sort lets them focus on what makes their devices superior. If they don't expect to generate substantial profits from apps sales, what is lost?

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[...] Raise prices to be in line with other tablets, and then offer the full Android tablet experience, limited only by the hardware.

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Ah, now that I do agree with. I was surprised to see an "official" (at least I think it was) B&N eBay sale with new NTs priced at $150. I have to wonder how the B&N brick-and-mortar stores feel about that. I think simply opening up app availability -- even sideloading -- would negate some of the advantage Amazon holds without having to take even more of a beating on the NOOK hardware costs. Low costs are generally a good thing, but seeing that does make me regret being a NT early adopter.

I'm still a B&N fan, despite my criticisms of their software choices. Their hardware is absolutely stunning, and still a good value for the price. While I probably won't buy another NOOK "media tablet" device (having opted for the Samsung GT2) for "serious" use, I still quite like my NCs and NT (rooted, of course). Until late last year, I would have counted myself amongst the B&N loyal, and not considered another device. I'm just tired of fighting them to use it as I see fit.

It will be interesting to see what impact the expanding field of "full" 7 inch tablets in the sub-$250 range has on both B&N and Amazon. Amazon is, I suspect, better prepared to handle any loss of Fire sales since they can still get ebook, app and music sales out of these devices. B&N really only has ebooks. Perhaps focusing on NOOK apps (yes, including for Win8 and iPad) and not fighting the hardware battle to the death is the winning strategy. Has anybody seen any numbers breaking out B&N content sales by device type? B&N is still making sales to me through their Android app. I just wish it was more full-featured!

[bobstro]

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flyingtoastr wrote:

[...] Pretty much the first thing mentioned whenever rooting comes up on these boards is "you can install the Kindle app!". You're making the assumption that the people who want an "open" BN tablet are still going to help offset the subsidized price by buying BN content, when that strongly doesn't appear to be the case from a number of the "modders" just here on this forum.

If I were a BN exec I would consider people like that a lost cause anyway. *shrug*

---

Count me as an exception then. While I've grown tired of fighting B&N on how I should use my NOOK, I've continued my B&N subscriptions and continue to make eBook purchases on my new Samsung tablet. I was doing the same for a year running CyanogenMod firmware on my NC. Prior to buying and rooting my device, I'd only purchased a few Amazon ebooks. Now I'm a regular B&N customer. I've bought more from B&N for my NOOK than I have hardcopy content from B&N over the last 5 years.

The thing I think you're overlooking, FT, is that the Kindle app is pretty damned poor! Yes, people with existing Amazon purchases want it, but that doesn't mean they're poisoned against other formats for eternity. It's not a zero sum game. Hell, we bought the B&N device! Most "modders" I've had exchanges with still use their device to access B&N content. That's a major decision for those rooting B&N firmware versus running alternate firmware. The "modders" are not exclusively anti-B&N!

Why should a B&N exec care what device I'm using if their profits are truly driven by media and I'm buying media?

[bobstro]

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TnTexas wrote:

[...] It occurs to me that there's something else to consider here, though. While the initial customer of these circumstances may not provide a lot of extra revenue himself, there's always the possibility that he may be responsible for quite a bit of extra revenue through recommendations of the device to others - people who will use the device to buy things from B&N. 

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Don't forget the profit on NOOK accessories! I wasn't comfortable buying a (then) expensive NC without a $40 case and $20 screen protectors. An easy $60 on some pretty overpriced goodies. Even the most die-hard "modder" wants a nice case. And don't forget that $25 charge kit the time I left mine at home.

As one of the "modder" commuity that B&N seems to anxious to dismiss, I've purchased 6 B&N devices for my family. I'd be happy to buy more (the glow is appealing) if only B&N would quit insisting on controlling every aspect of how I use my device. It's gotten to the point that I've moved away from the NOOK media tablet type devices.

[flyingtoastr Scribe]

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bobstro wrote:

Count me as an exception then. While I've grown tired of fighting B&N on how I should use my NOOK, I've continued my B&N subscriptions and continue to make eBook purchases on my new Samsung tablet. I was doing the same for a year running CyanogenMod firmware on my NC. Prior to buying and rooting my device, I'd only purchased a few Amazon ebooks. Now I'm a regular B&N customer. I've bought more from B&N for my NOOK than I have hardcopy content from B&N over the last 5 years.

The thing I think you're overlooking, FT, is that the Kindle app is pretty damned poor! Yes, people with existing Amazon purchases want it, but that doesn't mean they're poisoned against other formats for eternity. It's not a zero sum game. Hell, we bought the B&N device! Most "modders" I've had exchanges with still use their device to access B&N content. That's a major decision for those rooting B&N firmware versus running alternate firmware. The "modders" are not exclusively anti-B&N!

Why should a B&N exec care what device I'm using if their profits are truly driven by media and I'm buying media?

---

You're not looking at it right.

Look at this whole issue from the perspective of a BN executive. Your company is fighting for its life againt a company with a market capitalization nearly a hundred times larger, that has more mindshare thanks to simple logistics and the ability to loss-lead you into oblivion. You're selling a product with razor thin margins on the hope that the customers will stick with your store and make up the loss with content sales.

That executive pops on to their own company's customer forums and sees a bunch of people who are "passionate" about their product - and modifying that product (sold at nil margin) to buy content from that competitior. What's going to be the response - the perfectly logical business response? Lock it down. Remember, BN isn't in this business for the hardware sales, they're in it for the content. That's why a rooter "recommending" that people buy a NOOK isn't a great endorsement, given that the next sentence always seems to be "and then make yourself a CM7 card and download the Kindle app!".

I do think you're generally right that a decent portion of people who root their devices continue to buy some content from BN. But when you take a quick honest look about these forums, does it really seem that way?

[TnTexas]

Flyingtoastr: You're not looking at it right.

Look at this whole issue from the perspective of a BN executive. Your company is fighting for its life againt a company with a market capitalization nearly a hundred times larger, that has more mindshare thanks to simple logistics and the ability to loss-lead you into oblivion. You're selling a product with razor thin margins on the hope that the customers will stick with your store and make up the loss with content sales.

That executive pops on to their own company's customer forums and sees a bunch of people who are "passionate" about their product - and modifying that product (sold at nil margin) to buy content from that competitior. What's going to be the response - the perfectly logical business response? Lock it down. Remember, BN isn't in this business for the hardware sales, they're in it for the content. That's why a rooter "recommending" that people buy a NOOK isn't a great endorsement, given that the next sentence always seems to be "and then make yourself a CM7 card and download the Kindle app!".

I do think you're generally right that a decent portion of people who root their devices continue to buy some content from BN. But when you take a quick honest look about these forums, does it really seem that way?

And if that's the case, I think the exec is missing a few important things: 1.) The community here is a microscopic portion of his customer base and is not representative of the base as a whole. They're anamolies. 2.) The modding community may be small; but because it (as a whole) understands technology, it has a lot of influence with those around them when it comes to recommending products. They're often the go-to people when others are looking into buying something. 3.) Because of that, the modding community is not necessarily an enemy. It has the potential to be a strong ally.

[bobstro]

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flyingtoastr wrote:
You're not looking at it right.

---

---

Look at this whole issue from the perspective of a BN executive. Your company is fighting for its life againt a company with a market capitalization nearly a hundred times larger, that has more mindshare thanks to simple logistics and the ability to loss-lead you into oblivion. You're selling a product with razor thin margins on the hope that the customers will stick with your store and make up the loss with content sales.

That executive pops on to their own company's customer forums and sees a bunch of people who are "passionate" about their product - and modifying that product (sold at nil margin) to buy content from that competitior. What's going to be the response - the perfectly logical business response? Lock it down.

---

Look at the AFN and N2A enthusiasts. They're certainly not evil techies. No self-respecting techie would buy such a thing! They're just "normal" folk who want a bit more functionality but -- this is the key part -- they still want B&N functionality! For what, if not to buy B&N content?

Reading through these forums, the vast majority of folks "modding" seem more interested in getting more app access in general, not specifically in buying Kindle content on it exclusively. Those that are asking for the Kindle app often preface it with "I'm buying B&N ebooks now, but have a substantial investment in Kindle books".

With all due respect, FT, I think our hypotentical B&N exec is the one looking at it wrong: A customer with a B&N device in-hand is more likely to buy B&N content than one without. While they may not buy 100% of their content from B&N, they'll buy more than zero. In my case, most. 

If I were to have options to load other apps whilst I wait for NOOK-optimized versions to appear in the B&N app store, I wouldn't be in this silly position of haivng to fight B&N. Before I gave up, I loaded several (free) apps. My6Sense was actually very nice in the NOOK version. It just isn't enough on its own to make me give up all else for the promise of "more to come".

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Remember, BN isn't in this business for the hardware sales, they're in it for the content. That's why a rooter "recommending" that people buy a NOOK isn't a great endorsement, given that the next sentence always seems to be "and then make yourself a CM7 card and download the Kindle app!".

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Why would you bother with a CM7 card if you never want to buy from B&N again? (I'm thinking NC here) 

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I do think you're generally right that a decent portion of people who root their devices continue to buy some content from BN. But when you take a quick honest look about these forums, does it really seem that way?

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Most emphatically yes! Here, on XDA and Android Forums, there are a lot of users who want to maintain full B&N functionality while getting access to more apps! We are not the enemy! If I were to walk into your store and list the NOOK devices, accessories and content I've purchased, you'd probably think I was a pretty good customer. Why does my having other apps loaded modify our relationship?

[flyingtoastr Scribe]

I need to make this clear:

I personally have no dog in this fight aside from making my life easier*. I really believe that BN should have just left the unrecognized install box available for customers, along with a quick rewrite of the warranty to state that checking it forgoes any further BN support. Add a nice little dialogue popup when you try to check the box (along with a password confirmation) informing the customer that installing any non-BN .apk's voids the base warranty for the device.

My only major pet peeve with the rooting community is the entitlement to warrenty converage that many seem to presume. If you are doing something you know is not within the normal operation of the device, you're on your own. Yes, booting from an SD card isn't expressly against the EULA/TOU, but it sure is against the spirit of the agreement. What you're basically saying by trying to claim warranty coverage while rooting a device is that you don't want to play by the rules but still have BN foot the bill if you screw something up. Unsupported software modifications should be completely unsupported.

I think BN's general treatment of the modding community has been incredibly odd. They were very hands-off during the Color days, then decided to lock down the Tablet (probalby having a lot to do with the agreement for the HD Netflix stream). Combined with the company's communication issues, it created a lot of backlash with the modding community who felt like BN was betraying them. I do worry that it's too late at this point to rectify the damage - the other generic Android OEM's have finally caught on to the $250 price-point, even if the NT's hardware still outclasses it.

*Normal caveat that my views reflect myself solely and are not indicitive of Barnes and Noble Inc. LLC, it's affiliates, or subsidiaries.

[BruceMcF]

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bobstro wrote:

So long as "app availabiity" remains one of the criteria on which B&N NOOK devices are compared to Amazon Fire devices, I think it will result in loss of sales lost to Amazon. After all, the techies already know how to circumvent B&N's restrictions (so far). It's the non-technical folks reading the comparisons and take them at face value when reading that app and media selection favors picking Amazon. I'm not talking about rooting, only breadth of app and media selection.

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A big chunk of Amazon's sales of their skinnytab are to customers for whom the Fire is a better choice irrespective of how much app availability the Nook may have. They have (1) a big selection of Kindle format ebooks and/or (2) are an Amazon Prime customer, for which the Fire is the best 7" platform.

Its an open question how many people are swung by "app availability", which in terms of the Amazon app store is due in part to Amazon's broader online customer base so that people who already have an Amazon account that they use for online sales and do not have a method of payment tied to their Google account will obviously prefer to get paid apps from the Amazon app store. Their market exposure allows them to get favorable terms, which allows them to fund special promos like the free apps.

Its also an open question what B&N can productively do about it. Rather than the Google Play store which has all the best stuff swimming in a massive sea of junk, they have a small pond of junk and have only a small selection of the best stuff. Strategies they could pursue would include: (1) having staff that peruse the "best app" lists, identify holes in the existing Nook app store offerings, and pursue those app developers; (2) open up a "side-market", in which a marketplace app from one of the broader cross-platform appstores is introduced as a Nook app, allowing approved downloading apps from that cross-platform appstore, (3) open up the access to the 3rd party checkbox, under some form of warranty exclusion, (4) ... well, you already know 4, both, so I'll leave it to one side.

(1) requires staff funding, and the return to that effort is uncertain and difficult to evaluate. (2) could be a revenue source, if the cross-platform marketplace app is itself a paid app (say, $2.99). (3) is kind of paying people to take Nook devices for uncertain and difficult to evaluate return to B&N in the form of people who eventually get tired of playing around with their apps and decide that they want to read a good book after all.

[DeanGibson Distinguished Bibliophile]

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TnTexas wrote:

Flyingtoastr: ...

If I were a BN exec I would consider people like that a lost cause anyway. *shrug*

They may be a lost cause personally, but what about what those who come to them for advice about what product to buy? Most of those would probably use the device as intended. 

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That last sentence is a great big assumption, and I disagree with it.

[DeanGibson Distinguished Bibliophile]

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bobstro wrote:

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flyingtoastr wrote:

... If I were a BN exec I would consider people like that a lost cause anyway. *shrug*

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...

Why should a B&N exec care what device I'm using if their profits are truly driven by media and I'm buying media?

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Just you, Bob, or everyone together???

We forget that it should be absolutely trivial for B&N to track the profit made on each purchaser.  Heck, they have (and it shows on the B&N web site for each person's accoount) each book they've bought, and which Nooks they've bought.  They know which users have been profitable and which have not.  They know the profit profiles for each of the Nooks.  They've been able to collect this data for a couple of years.

In other words, B&N doesn't have to guess.  Those of use here (including me) have ZERO hard data, and B&N has a easy way to get very exact data, down to the individual user level.

B&N is making decisions on that hard data, and unless they are fools (which I think a number of people here believe), they are not going to throw away profits when they have such precise data.

[bobstro]

FT: First, I'd like to thank you for your candor.

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flyingtoastr wrote:

My only major pet peeve with the rooting community is the entitlement to warrenty converage that many seem to presume. If you are doing something you know is not within the normal operation of the device, you're on your own. Yes, booting from an SD card isn't expressly against the EULA/TOU, but it sure is against the spirit of the agreement. What you're basically saying by trying to claim warranty coverage while rooting a device is that you don't want to play by the rules but still have BN foot the bill if you screw something up. Unsupported software modifications should be completely unsupported.

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I think this is a good example an opportunity to take advantage of what (I believe) TnTexas was describing: Enlisting the "modder" community as allies rather than enemies. Or at least, free technical support.

It's true that there are people who screw up their device, then try to return it to B&N. Offsetting this somewhat, the technical community has demonstrated that it's fairly difficult to permanently damage a NOOK device -- certainly the NC, and perhaps less so, the NT -- in software. If you look through XDA, you'll see plenty of "I bricked my Nook" posts, usually followed by a flow of advice on how to simply recover the device.

You'll also see lots of "my battery life is poor/I get lots of FCs" messages from users of unmodified devices, also followed by a flow of helpful advice. Very often, this advice is going beyond what B&N's telephonic support provides, and also very often, resolves the issue. I doubt this offsets the number of screw-ups, but I think it illustrates that this community is willing to help users of all abilities. There's very much an air of "no man left behind" on XDA, and some impressively competent developers and others often lend a hand. Let's face it: A lot, if not most, of the "modding" is done for little more than recognition. I find it ironic that CyanogenMod and ClockworkMod are available from the actual developers on XDA for free, while firms active here reap the glory for profit on work they didn't do.

Imagine if B&N gave those same developers a bit of recognition? It looks like they may have identified solutions, or at least pinpointed the causes of some persistent software bugs that plague many users. Wouldn't it be wonderful if B&N harnessed that, and with a bit of goodwill, encouraged it?

I don't expect this to happen overnight, mind you, and I'm certainly not demanding it. I just think it's something B&N should consider among their strategies.

[bobstro]

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DeanGibson wrote:

... Why should a B&N exec care what device I'm using if their profits are truly driven by media and I'm buying media?

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Just you, Bob, or everyone together???

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I only presume to speak for myself, sir! I can also only assume that I'm a fairly typical technical guy, based on my own observations of other discussions.

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We forget that it should be absolutely trivial for B&N to track the profit made on each purchaser.  Heck, they have (and it shows on the B&N web site for each person's accoount) each book they've bought, and which Nooks they've bought.  They know which users have been profitable and which have not.  They know the profit profiles for each of the Nooks.  They've been able to collect this data for a couple of years.

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And, to the best of my knowledge, none of us has any better data than the others. While I'd certainly consider these factors, general experience has shown us that often lawyers and committees make technical decisions. What I would like to do -- in the spirit of hoping B&N execs actually peruse these threads as FT describes -- is urge them to consider these other perspectives. As a faithful B&N customer invested in 6 devices, I don't think that's unreasonable.

[DeanGibson Distinguished Bibliophile]

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TnTexas wrote:....

In other words, your analogy has a major flaw. ..

DeanGibson: Raise prices to be in line with other tablets, and then offer the full Android tablet experience, limited only by the hardware.

If it weren't for the existence of the Fire, I might agree; but I can't see B&N raising its prices significantly higher than its most direct competitor as being a good answer to the problem.

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The analogy was intentionally simplistic, but made a point.  Your observations to that effect have merit as well.  Note that users that jump from B&N because of the "limitations" of the Nooks, may jump to Amazon if that's what they want, but there's a good argument that most will just jump to a generic Android tablet instead.  After all, the Kindle Fire hardware is more limiting that the B&N hardware.

[TnTexas]

Flyingtoastr: ... If I were a BN exec I would consider people like that a lost cause anyway. *shrug*

TnTexas: They may be a lost cause personally, but what about what those who come to them for advice about what product to buy? Most of those would probably use the device as intended.

DeanGibson: That last sentence is a great big assumption, and I disagree with it.

Why? From what I've heard, the modding community is a pretty small one. Therefore it seems like the vast majority of any device's consumer base either uses it as it was intended, returns it if they wind up not liking it, or buying something else; they don't spend time trying to make it do what they want it to do.

DeanGibson: B&N is making decisions on that hard data, and unless they are fools (which I think a number of people here believe), they are not going to throw away profits when they have such precise data.

But the data they can't have on everyone is exactly why he/she chose to buy the Nook in the first place. 

[DeanGibson Distinguished Bibliophile]

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TnTexas wrote:

But the data they can't have on everyone is exactly why he/she chose to buy the Nook in the first place. 

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While that would be an interesting statistic, it doesn't predict anything financial, and it's fluid.  My reasons for buying Nooks (and B&N media) have changed significantly over the past year, and I'll bet that's true for most users.

Even the statistics for devices that don't buy anything afeter the sale, don't tell us whether the unit is rooted, or simply unused (most of the sales on Craigslist fall into one of those categories).  Of course, either way, B&N is making the same amount of profit, so I wonder if it matters.

[bobstro]

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DeanGibson wrote:

[...] Note that users that jump from B&N because of the "limitations" of the Nooks, may jump to Amazon if that's what they want, but there's a good argument that most will just jump to a generic Android tablet instead.  After all, the Kindle Fire hardware is more limiting that the B&N hardware.

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Yes! Exactly. We also need to consider those who never buy a NOOK or Fire in the first place and go directly to something else. If the B&N Android App is made into a reasonable functional equivalent of a good reader -- even if not identical to the NOOK firmware -- B&N has a good chance of retaining customers among those "lost" users. At least those who don't decide Apple is always the safe bet.

Which brings us to my point that alternate app selection doesn't hurt B&N in any great way. They make as much from selling me an ebook on an Android tablet as on a NOOK Tablet (I assume). If the profit isn't in the NT anyhow, does it matter to them?

Which brings me back to the NOOK devices themselves. 3rd party apps are being added, regardless of what B&N does. Users will still buy NOOK app versions when/if those B&N-tailored versions are actually better. By making a simple decision to not actively fight user's ability to enable 3rd party apps, using any one of the options outlined here in this thread, B&N goes from goat to hero, and starts scoring number one in more comparisons rather than number two.

To address BruceMCF's point:

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 Strategies they could pursue would include: (1) having staff that peruse the "best app" lists, identify holes in the existing Nook app store offerings, and pursue those app developers; [...]

(1) requires staff funding, and the return to that effort is uncertain and difficult to evaluate.

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What of a "curated Android Market", something along the lines of a cleaned up AppBrain tailored towards the NOOK? Looking at these pages, it wouldn't be hard to entice regular readers/posters to compete to earn "app expert" status on a specific topic, then let them (the community) curate the vast market offerings. I'm not saying this would be zero cost to B&N, but considering the benefits, it might be well worthwhile. Point to the "NOOK Ehnahced" versions, pointing out what they offer for those apps B&N does have available, or point out the best-in-class otherwise.

I do wonder if it would really be necessary to even have a NOOK-only version once NOOK versions become commonplace enough to drive developer efforts in the larger Android app market, though B&N could certainly keep a "premium" shop open if it's profitable.

B&N goes from offering a fraction of what Amazon does to offering more (even if those numbers reflect a lot of chaff), B&N can retain profit on the "premium" NOOK-optimized versions, B&N further engages rather than enrages a vocal subset of their community, and a whole lot of people who love spending time here get further recognition and a chance to positively benefit this community.

[TnTexas]

Flyingtoastr: I personally have no dog in this fight aside from making my life easier*. I really believe that BN should have just left the unrecognized install box available for customers, along with a quick rewrite of the warranty to state that checking it forgoes any further BN support. Add a nice little dialogue popup when you try to check the box (along with a password confirmation) informing the customer that installing any non-BN .apk's voids the base warranty for the device.

This would have made the most sense to me. I suspect a large part of why they didn't (maybe the reason) was due to contractural reasons.

My only major pet peeve with the rooting community is the entitlement to warrenty converage that many seem to presume. If you are doing something you know is not within the normal operation of the device, you're on your own. Yes, booting from an SD card isn't expressly against the EULA/TOU, but it sure is against the spirit of the agreement. What you're basically saying by trying to claim warranty coverage while rooting a device is that you don't want to play by the rules but still have BN foot the bill if you screw something up. Unsupported software modifications should be completely unsupported.

Just to keep the record straight, using an N2A or AFN card is not the same as rooting the device. Neither of them affects the device's internal coding in any way. Pop the card out and you have a stock, out-of-the box Nook. Since nothing done with the card affects the internals of the device itself, if something goes wrong with it during the warranty period, I think B&N should take care of it as promised -  even if the person was using one of the cards. On the otherhand, rooting the device does change the internal coding, and I agree that people who do that shouldn't expect B&N to take care of any problems that pop up - within the warranty period or not

I think BN's general treatment of the modding community has been incredibly odd. They were very hands-off during the Color days, then decided to lock down the Tablet (probalby having a lot to do with the agreement for the HD Netflix stream). Combined with the company's communication issues, it created a lot of backlash with the modding community who felt like BN was betraying them. I do worry that it's too late at this point to rectify the damage - the other generic Android OEM's have finally caught on to the $250 price-point, even if the NT's hardware still outclasses it.

Agreed. And your second sentence is why I didn't buy into the argument that said everyone who bought the Tablet before it was locked down should have known it was going to be locked down eventually. B&N's past history up until than had indicated that the "loophole" would probably be left alone. 

[bobstro]

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TnTexas wrote:

[...] Just to keep the record straight, using an N2A or AFN card is not the same as rooting the device. Neither of them affects the device's internal coding in any way. Pop the card out and you have a stock, out-of-the box Nook.  

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Well... there are those folks who decide they must flash CWM onto their device even if they don't know why! But here's an example of where enlisting the XDA and developer community makes more sense: Anybody doing this and getting stuck usually has a workaround within hours, if not minutes, when they post to XDA.

I could even see something on the B&N NOOK FAQ:
Q: I rooted my NOOK and ...

A: B&N does not support rooting on the NOOK platform, and doing so voids your warranty. If you have rooted your device and are experiencing problems, please go to http://forum.xda- ....

Q: My N2A/AFN card doesn't work and ... 

A: B&N does not support any alternate firmware booting. If you are running alternate firmware and are experiencing problems, please refer to the support site for your card (or list them here).

B&N doesn't substantially change positions, but acknowledges that there are users doing these things. Their position is clear, but they're not actively fighting it. The only other requirement would be, I think, an option to disable OTA updates.

[TnTexas]

DeanGibson: The analogy was intentionally simplistic, but made a point.  Your observations to that effect have merit as well.  Note that users that jump from B&N because of the "limitations" of the Nooks, may jump to Amazon if that's what they want, but there's a good argument that most will just jump to a generic Android tablet instead.  After all, the Kindle Fire hardware is more limiting that the B&N hardware.

General android tablet or the Fire - either way, a sale that could have gone to the Nook and therefore strongly encouraged people to buy from B&N didn't. 

DeanGibson: While that would be an interesting statistic, it doesn't predict anything financial, and it's fluid.  My reasons for buying Nooks (and B&N media) have changed significantly over the past year, and I'll bet that's true for most users.

Even the statistics for devices that don't buy anything after the sale, don't tell us whether the unit is rooted, or simply unused (most of the sales on Craigslist fall into one of those categories).  Of course, either way, B&N is making the same amount of profit, so I wonder if it matters.

It may be something that can't predict anything solidly on a financial level, but many people buy things (especially technology) on word-of-mouth recommendations. So why be so quick to dismiss the possibilities?