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efeigenbaum
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?


bobstro wrote:

I can say, though, that they often seem to think that we're "stuck" with whatever they offer, and will utlimately buy whatever they decide we can have. I think that's a bad mistake on their part. B&N took a bold step with the 1st NC, they need to stay bold and trust their users to help them get to the next level.



I have heard this particular line of reasoning before.  When people purchase a Nook Color, they are buying a Barnes & Noble ereader.  So, yes, they are "stuck" with what B&N offers.  If they want something more, they should buy something more.  What you are saying is akin to someone buying a Ford Festiva and complaining because it isn't a Mustang.  If you want a Mustang, spend the money and get one.  It's the same principle.

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bobstro
Posts: 2,187
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?


efeigenbaum wrote:
I have heard this particular line of reasoning before.  When people purchase a Nook Color, they are buying a Barnes & Noble ereader.  So, yes, they are "stuck" with what B&N offers.  If they want something more, they should buy something more.  What you are saying is akin to someone buying a Ford Festiva and complaining because it isn't a Mustang.  If you want a Mustang, spend the money and get one.  It's the same principle.

Ford takes feedback from customers all the time, and has benefitted greatly from it over the years. You're confusing idle whining with suggestions for improvements. There's a big difference between complaining that the device can't do something it is clearly incapable of, and asking that it be allowed to do something it clearly is capable of. If we must use the car analogy, the current situation is more akin to Ford not allowing any other brand of tire to be mounted on a car because they have a lucrative relationshilp with Goodyear. Beneficial to them, perhaps, but not necessarily the customer.

 

You don't seem to be a big fan of B&N's DRM and lending limitations. Do you think your actions help improve B&N's service to customers more than someone speaking up for improving the situation? Just working around a problem in a way that only benefits you isn't improving the world.

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efeigenbaum
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

I never said I was trying to improve the world.  I simply found a solution that solved the problem for me and I share it with others.

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tmr4
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

Ford taking feedback will help them sell more Fords. B&N allowing third party readers might sell more NCs, not its main line of business, but probably wouldn't result in as many ebook sales, which is its main line of business. It is wishfull thinking nowadays to think a company is going ignore its bottom line to satisfy the fringe of its customer base. They are actually better off by having these folks migrate to the systems that actually meet their needs.

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patgolfneb
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

[ Edited ]
tmr4, I agree with your reasoning, but BN does weaken the argument by seeking investment and beating the drums for a higher igher valuation for their nook business. If it is to be valued separately then it is competing with tablets not intended as reader first devices. They may wish to have it both ways? I don't think the expectation that every device have every feature, since Ford was mentioned, car features vary even at similar price points. Criticism should be based on failure to perform intended functions. If other devices have other features someone desires it is understood. I just don't get why trashing products for not doing things they were not intended to do is is considered fair. It's the equivalent of complaining because my 35,000.00 v6 Mustang isn't as good in the snow as my 35,000.00. V6 Edge or because the Edge is slower and doesn't handle as well as the Mustang. Of course both can be modified, cm7 card? But if you don't want the added features, why should you pay for them?
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bobstro
Posts: 2,187
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

[ Edited ]

tmr4 wrote:

Ford taking feedback will help them sell more Fords. B&N allowing third party readers might sell more NCs, not its main line of business, but probably wouldn't result in as many ebook sales, which is its main line of business. It is wishfull thinking nowadays to think a company is going ignore its bottom line to satisfy the fringe of its customer base. They are actually better off by having these folks migrate to the systems that actually meet their needs.


It's a combination of factors. B&N is least served by selling something to a user that will eventually frustrate them and cause them to leave the B&N marketplace. B&N would be better served by allowing users to select a 3rd party reader than departing the B&N ecosystem altogether. B&N would be best served by taking customer feedback and improving some of the long-standing deficiencies in their reader to make the the best-in-class for reading material from any source. 

 

Now that I'm happy with the level of control I have over my epub collection, I'm buying more titles from B&N than ever before. B&N has benefitted from my satisfaction, even though I no longer use their reader software on my devices. For a company that repeatedly empasizes that they make their money from content, this should be significant.

 

I think most customers try the B&N reader first -- it is nicely integrated and pretty -- before moving to something else. I struggled with it for several months, and really wanted it to meet my needs. If it were a.) fixed and b.) improved, there'd be little inentive to move. You'd think a company producing readers would put a real emphasis on the reading software, after all.

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bobstro
Posts: 2,187
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

[ Edited ]

patgolfneb wrote:
[...] I just don't get why trashing products for not doing things they were not intended to do is is considered fair. It's the equivalent of complaining because my 35,000.00 v6 Mustang isn't as good in the snow as my 35,000.00. V6 Edge or because the Edge is slower and doesn't handle as well as the Mustang. Of course both can be modified, cm7 card? But if you don't want the added features, why should you pay for them?

You're using a poor analogy. A closer one would be Ford locking the bolts so you can't put non-Ford rims on your $15,000 ride because they sell a small (but growing!) line of mediocre rims they want you to buy.

 

Nobody's talking about making a sedan into an off-road monster or a sports car here. These are things the hardware is perfectly capable of. B&N has just put software locks on functionality to try to enforce lock-in.

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orb9220
Posts: 1,124
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

[ Edited ]

+1 bobstro

Wholeheartedly agree!

" I struggled with it for several months, and really wanted it to meet my needs. If it were a.) fixed and b.) improved, there'd be little inentive to move. You'd think a company producing readers would put a real emphasis on the reading software, after all."

 

And the reason I started the thread for letting in other ereaders to get the job done. As that is how they handled abysmal pdf support. Let a 3rd pary app take up the slack instead of fixing theirs!

"All I Know is...Last Night the Tele-Tubbies came out of the wall and Held Me Down while they put Devices in my Head!"
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jaquellae
Posts: 201
Registered: ‎08-27-2010
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

[ Edited ]

bobstro wrote:

patgolfneb wrote:
[...] I just don't get why trashing products for not doing things they were not intended to do is is considered fair. It's the equivalent of complaining because my 35,000.00 v6 Mustang isn't as good in the snow as my 35,000.00. V6 Edge or because the Edge is slower and doesn't handle as well as the Mustang. Of course both can be modified, cm7 card? But if you don't want the added features, why should you pay for them?

You're using a poor analogy. A closer one would be Ford locking the bolts so you can't put non-Ford rims on your $15,000 ride because they sell a small (but growing!) line of mediocre rims they want you to buy.

 

Nobody's talking about making a sedan into an off-road monster or a sports car here. These are things the hardware is perfectly capable of. B&N has just put software locks on functionality to try to enforce lock-in.


I'm not sure that's a good analogy either. Ford is in the business of selling cars, not accessories. It's not in their interests to lock the accessory market out (something the probably can't fully compete in even if the wanted to). B&N is in the business of selling books, and is selling nooks to further that goal. A better analogy might be Gillette selling shavers so they can sell you the razor blades. You can still sideload books from other stores that use Adobe Digital Editions DRM, and that is a selling point over the Kindle (at least for me). It doesn't surprise me, however, that they don't allow competing store's apps on their product. Just my 2 cents.

 

edit, added: Just a side note: Someone else had said if you bought a Ford Fiesta, you shouldn't complain it's not a Mustang. Yes, the Nook Color & tablet can be rooted to be a basic Android tablet, but they were never sold or advertised as such. They were sold as ereaders with some tablet functions. If your goring to buy one, use it with the existing software, root or dual boot it (like I did), or buy something advertised and sold as a more open tablet.

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patgolfneb
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

Bobstro, my analogy was in the context of the Ford customer feedback post. Cars capable of much higher speeds are often electronically limited to much less. The point is whether the product is capable of more or not is not completely fair criticism. A balanced view acknowledges that the product could do more and you desire that. A balanced view also acknowledges how well it does what it was intended to do. That is missing from the criticism on this forum. This constant refrain has added little of a constructive nature in many months. Every one gets it, you feel BN should open up their products. You are dissatisfied that they have not. The case for doing so, from your perspective, is that it would be a better product. I don't disagree, but I am not convinced it would be a more profitable product. Competition head on with Samsung and other huge tech firms is an almost business suicide. BN has chosen to target a consumer less interested in how leading edge the technology is, and more focused on obtaining core products, books, children's games etc, in a central location. Yes they are trying to get a piece of the rest, but thats just gravy. The verdict on the success of this strategy is pending, but it is a valid strategy.
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JinSC
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

Ok, I've tried to saty out of this discussion because I don't know if I can express what I want to say and there may be some facts I have wrong.  I'm sure someone will be along shortly to point out my errors.

 

First, I acknowledge the NC is an ereader. Could it be opened up to do more as a tablet? Yes, but that was not its intent. And it’s overall capabilities are kind of off topic as the OP was talking about the functionality of the reader "app" (for lack of a better term).

 

If I’m not mistaken (and here is where I’m sure someone will correct me) the issue is really about DRM. What people seem to fail to understand is that what you have done when you buy an NC is you have bought a platform that enables your to then buy access to books. You don’t actually buy the books, per se. What you buy is the right to have digital access to a book via proprietary software owned by B&N. That proprietary software keeps you from selling digital copies to whomever you please. And, it is not just B&N’s attempt to lock you into buying from them, but it is also part of their agreement with the publishers. B&N has to have some way to maintain control over the digital rights or access to the "books."

 

When you talk of a third party reader app, as did the OP, that app would have to have the "key" to unlock B&N’s "vault" to see which books you have access to and provide you with those books. I’m sure that B&N doesn’t want to give away this "key." Nor, do I think, they can given their contracts with publishers.

 

Also, think about it. If you had a third party app on your NC that would let you read other books, but not have access to your B&N books, what would you do? That’s right you’d be complaining about not being able to read all of your stuff via the same app. These complaints would be even LOUDER if the third party app were inherently better or more appealing to the reader. Why would B&N want to invite that headache? They show you up front what you are going to get with the NC, and if you buy it, then that is what you have.

 

I’m not thrilled with the car analogy, but since that is what has been in use thus far in this thread, I’ll give it a go. The operant word that has been misused is "buy." Think in terms of "lease" because ultimately B&N controls your "ownership" of the books. So, the OP is asking to "lease" a Mustang (the NC, or more precisely the experience of reading books on the NC) but wants Ford to allow him to put a Chevy Corvette engine in it. Or, perhaps, wants the more comfortable ride of a Buick or Cadillac to be installed after "purchase." Now, does Ford have an obligation to "fix" "recall" issues? Yes, as B&N has an obligation to fix the NC. But folks, we bought it as is. Actually, it was worse as the updates have given us some improvements.

 

Ok enough from me....

Jeremy

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BruceMcF
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?


patgolfneb wrote:
tmr4, I agree with your reasoning, but BN does weaken the argument by seeking investment and beating the drums for a higher igher valuation for their nook business. If it is to be valued separately then it is competing with tablets not intended as reader first devices. ...
How exactly does putting their ebooks and ebook readers in a separate division from their bricks and mortar stores and physical books mean that they are "competing with tablets not intended as reader first devices"?
After all, the investment that they obtained doing that, which valued the division at more than the stock market value of the entire B&N company, was from Microsoft, and involves making the B&N reader and online bookstore the default bundled system in Windows 8.
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bobstro
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

[ Edited ]

JinSC wrote:

[...] If I’m not mistaken (and here is where I’m sure someone will correct me) the issue is really about DRM. What people seem to fail to understand is that what you have done when you buy an NC is you have bought a platform that enables your to then buy access to books. You don’t actually buy the books, per se. What you buy is the right to have digital access to a book via proprietary software owned by B&N.


Welcome to the discussion, Jeremy. I won't bite your head off, promise! This is just a conversation in normal tones among customers with differing opinions, so far as I'm concerned. This isn't warfare.

 

You definitely buy the hardware. The hardware, out of the box, runs software that can provide you that access -- the lease, as it were -- to books, as well as other software.  The 3rd party software issue is only partially about ebook readers and DRM. There are other simple apps that have nothing to do with reading or DRM that are part of the overall "access to 3rd party apps" discussion. However, this specific topic started on the topic of readers, so I'll stick to those.


That proprietary software keeps you from selling digital copies to whomever you please. And, it is not just B&N’s attempt to lock you into buying from them, but it is also part of their agreement with the publishers. B&N has to have some way to maintain control over the digital rights or access to the "books."


B&N is not the only company doing DRM. It's part of doing business in ebooks these days. Adobe's Digital Editions (ADE) are a similar scheme used by other products. They do work a bit differently:


1. B&N's "social" DRM is arguably the more flexible and consumer friendly of the two. By entering your name and credit card info, you can "unlock" the book under the terms of the license you purchased under. You can even give that same file to others and, so long as you are OK entering your name and CC# on their device, they can read it.

 

2. ADE locks the file to the device. You must register each device you read on with Adobe, and up to a maximum of 6 devices can be associated with your account, I believe. The ebook file is locked to that account, and only devices authorized (registered) to that account can read the file. It is much more rigid.

 

You are correct that B&N's DRM exists because some ebook publishers insist on some sort of DRM. The music industry went through these very same gyrations a number of years ago, with legitimate users being limited in how they could use music they'd paid for (rather, purchased a license for), while those less worried about legality found ways around the DRM and shared files at will. DRM only inconvenienced legitimate, paying customers. Most of the music industry has abandoned DRM and instead count on users playing by the rules, with legal consequences for those that do not.


When you talk of a third party reader app, as did the OP, that app would have to have the "key" to unlock B&N’s "vault" to see which books you have access to and provide you with those books. I’m sure that B&N doesn’t want to give away this "key." Nor, do I think, they can given their contracts with publishers.


3rd party apps can read both ADE and B&N's DRM. B&N devices are not the only ones that can read B&N titles, although not all 3rd party reader apps can deal with the DRM. Where you're mistaken is that the user needs the "keys to B&N's vault." They don't. The reader needs to support whichever DRM scheme is used, and many do. The "keys" are the info used to encrypt the file, the CC name and number for B&N's DRM.


Also, think about it. If you had a third party app on your NC that would let you read other books, but not have access to your B&N books, what would you do? That’s right you’d be complaining about not being able to read all of your stuff via the same app. These complaints would be even LOUDER if the third party app were inherently better or more appealing to the reader. Why would B&N want to invite that headache? They show you up front what you are going to get with the NC, and if you buy it, then that is what you have.


The answer to "why" B&N would want to is that you paid B&N for the rights to read that book. B&N made their cut. B&N thrives from numbers of people that buy ebooks through them. Happy users buy more ebooks. Making the customer happy should be their focus. Why should B&N care what reader I use if I buy the book from them?

 

Keep in mind, other 3rd party readers can read B&N's DRM. Otherwise, B&N would have to answer questions about peoples' entire library only being accessible so long as B&N exists. This is not an unfounded concern. In the dark days of music DRM, users lost their library when the "store" they purchased through went under or changed models. This can happen with other kinds of DRM for other reasons.


[...] Yes, as B&N has an obligation to fix the NC. But folks, we bought it as is. Actually, it was worse as the updates have given us some improvements.


A number of folks might argue as to whether B&N have lived up to this obligation. The reader is not flawless. What bothers me more is that it doesn't treat all ebooks the same. Those bought from B&N show with nice summaries, covers and other metadata. Others don't. So if I'm playing along and buying into the B&N world, do I have to throw away my existing investment in ebooks to get a uniform experience?  It seems to me B&N not only wants to control how I use my device, but also to pressure me to buy every book from them.

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JinSC
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

Bobstro,

 

Thanks for the info concerning some third party apps being able to read the B&N DRM.  Makes much of my argument moot, but I said at the outset that i was unsure of certain "facts."

 

I am familiar with ADE.  to be honest, i've spent probably less than $30 on books from B&N.  Most of my reading is  through ADE and the public library.  And i've collected some free books from the Friday giveaways. 

 

So...now i am wondering what the reasoning is behind no third party reader apps.  Hmmm....

 

Jeremy

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efeigenbaum
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

[ Edited ]

Most of my books from day 1 have been sideloaded because they were acquired from other sources (Fictionwise, Webscription, Gutenberg Project) so I'm not tied to having to use the Nook app to read my books.

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compulsivereaderTX
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?


bobstro wrote:

What bothers me more is that it doesn't treat all ebooks the same. Those bought from B&N show with nice summaries, covers and other metadata. Others don't. So if I'm playing along and buying into the B&N world, do I have to throw away my existing investment in ebooks to get a uniform experience?  It seems to me B&N not only wants to control how I use my device, but also to pressure me to buy every book from them.



Exactly. :smileyhappy:

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efeigenbaum
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?


compulsivereaderTX wrote:

bobstro wrote:

What bothers me more is that it doesn't treat all ebooks the same. Those bought from B&N show with nice summaries, covers and other metadata. Others don't. So if I'm playing along and buying into the B&N world, do I have to throw away my existing investment in ebooks to get a uniform experience?  It seems to me B&N not only wants to control how I use my device, but also to pressure me to buy every book from them.



Exactly. :smileyhappy:


Sounds like Apple.

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gkaiseil
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

And form built the "very popular" Edsel from customer surveys.

 

Customer opinion can change quickly and often and how a question is asked can also skew the answer.

 

Asking "Would you buy ...?" is very different form "What do you want ...?"

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5ivedom
Posts: 3,544
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

Isn't that the whole point - of getting people to buy their content from the company selling them the Tablet.

 

Apple, Amazon, B&N all do this because they want people to keep buying from them.

 

Why would they give up the recurring stream of income that generates.

 

*****

 

1) Firstly, if they do this (open things up) because perhaps 20% of users want this, it kills their revenue stream from 80% of users who don't think it is a dealbreaker but now suddenly get the option to leave the Nook Store.

 

2) Secondly, B&N isn't in the business of selling Tablets at a loss (or at close to zero profits) so that Amazon or Apple or Pirated Books become the predominant option on their Tablets.

 

*****

 

The logic of 'More people would buy it' doesn't factor in:

 

1) What percentage of people are the ones who want 'the openness option'.

2) What effect it would have on people who are currently happy to buy just from B&N.

 

*****

There's no logic at all to giving up $10 to $50 per year per Nook owner profits just to make some users happy who would generate very little money and form just a small (although very vocal) portion of users and would probably not generate as much money as would be lost by opening up.

*****

 

Protected Recurring Revenue. That's the key. If you make the device open then your revenue streams aren't defensible and the guaranteed recurring revenue you could use for things like strengthening your company, expanding internationally, and improving the devices - that goes away.

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5ivedom
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Re: Why no 3rd party e-reader Apps options?

Additionally, to illustrate the importance of locked-in users and subscribers, AOL generates a significant portion of their revenue from subscribers. Still, after so many years.

 

All the people who wanted X feature and Y openness are all gone. Moved on. But the people who subscribed are still there and keeping that company alive.

 

So why would you endanger the GUARANTEED customers and revenue stream?

 

Just to make some portion of people happy who would probably leave for a MORE OPEN option anyways.