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vivico1
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Josie and Peter

We have a thread about the mothers, what about Peter and Josie, the before, early years. It seems like very very young Peter was an introverted child and Josie was more extroverted. What do you think made them so very different so very young that in kindergarden, Josie would feel the need to stand up for Peter, and what held Peter back? Why did they have such different personalities?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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vivico1
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Re: Josie and Peter

When Lacy finally finds out what is happening to Peter, all the bullying and that the school wasnt helping really, this brought up a lot of issues to me. Peter tried to get help, ask for help from the teachers and didn't get it. And the school's idea is that HE needs to learn how to fight for himself, tho he gets in trouble for protecting himself if he tries. Talk about damned if you do damned if you dont! I think his cries for help at school that went unheeded or turned on him, further isolated him, even at 6. I know kids sometimes have to be taught ways to stand up to bullies if no one will help but I was personally mortified when Lacy said, if you don't stand up to them, I will have to punish you, you will not get to spend time with Josie,(his only friend). What the heck kind of help is this! What do you guys think of this kind of "help/punishment"? Its like saying to me, if you continue to get beat up, then I am going to beat you up too! I felt Peter was set up to expect no help from adults in his isolation and that he would feel alienated so very young. What a lesson to learn. And to take away his time with the only friend he had? Some of you parents speak to me about your feelings on this and what might you do to help him or have you had to do to help a child being bullied.

I write this here because it does go along with causes of why Josie and Peter were very different, but at the same time, I think they were anyway. He was such a shy kid before school. What about his older brother? How does that play into this? Do you think perhaps, that when there are two siblings (especially just two) and one dies, that the remaining one, depending on how the parents pull it together, seem to suffer a lot from survivors remorse? I think a lot probably do. If you add that self inflicted guilt, and bullying and no help from adults and punishment for being bullied, basically being punished for having been a victim, all together, how a child's world must be warped and so sad and alone. A growing storm will eventually die away, but in its wake can come the destruction of many. But do we heed the storm warnings anymore, when the growing storm is a child?

One more thought about this, punishment for being bullied idea, it makes me think a lot about mothers (or fathers) that I see in stores, spanking the heck out of a kid who has been acting up and then as they are spanking them, saying STOP CRYING! Then they whip them some more for crying and say again STOP CRYING! I have always wanted to slap them upside the head for that. Once I did say, you know, if you would quite hitting him and yelling at him, maybe he COULD stop crying!
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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kiakar
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Re: Josie and Peter



vivico1 wrote

One more thought about this, punishment for being bullied idea, it makes me think a lot about mothers (or fathers) that I see in stores, spanking the heck out of a kid who has been acting up and then as they are spanking them, saying STOP CRYING! Then they whip them some more for crying and say again STOP CRYING! I have always wanted to slap them upside the head for that. Once I did say, you know, if you would quite hitting him and yelling at him, maybe he COULD stop crying!


Vivian, did you really say that to a parent? What reaction did you get? I heard this woman once told a parent that she would turn her in if she didn't quit hitting her child upside the head. I didn't see it first or I probably would be in trouble too. But both women just kept on moving and nothing else was said.
 
It was horrible what Laci said to Peter. I had to read it twice to understand that she really said that and the slash of pain it had to have made on Peter.  With my oldest daughter I saw kids laughing seemingly not very nice, cause they were whispering back and forth. So I asked Lisa were they making fun of her and she said yes. So I talked to some of the parents. She was around eleven or twelve. The kids didn't have much to do with Lisa after that but didn't taunt her either. And in school, I questioned her and it seemed she had friends in school. The other children just let everything just bounce off of them.I never knew of any instances.
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vivico1
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Re: Josie and Peter


kiakar wrote:


vivico1 wrote

One more thought about this, punishment for being bullied idea, it makes me think a lot about mothers (or fathers) that I see in stores, spanking the heck out of a kid who has been acting up and then as they are spanking them, saying STOP CRYING! Then they whip them some more for crying and say again STOP CRYING! I have always wanted to slap them upside the head for that. Once I did say, you know, if you would quite hitting him and yelling at him, maybe he COULD stop crying!


Vivian, did you really say that to a parent? What reaction did you get? I heard this woman once told a parent that she would turn her in if she didn't quit hitting her child upside the head. I didn't see it first or I probably would be in trouble too. But both women just kept on moving and nothing else was said.
It was horrible what Laci said to Peter. I had to read it twice to understand that she really said that and the slash of pain it had to have made on Peter. With my oldest daughter I saw kids laughing seemingly not very nice, cause they were whispering back and forth. So I asked Lisa were they making fun of her and she said yes. So I talked to some of the parents. She was around eleven or twelve. The kids didn't have much to do with Lisa after that but didn't taunt her either. And in school, I questioned her and it seemed she had friends in school. The other children just let everything just bounce off of them.I never knew of any instances.



If the woman would have been really hitting on the kid all over, I probably wouldnt have waited for the cops. But she was spanking this little one, probably about 4 hard on the bottom, which dont get me wrong, I think the bottom is made for that sometimes lol. But when it gets to the point where its not a spanking for anything but the fact the kid is now crying and maybe embarrassing the person in public, so they keep spanking them, they are out of control. Thats why I said it. I dont know if by that point the child even remember what the first whacks were for because now all she would keep saying is STOP CRYING and spank him again. So yeah I said it. She looked up at me, and she was hot, she hadn't thought about what others were seeing in her, not the child. She just said well I told him no, but looked embarrassed and caught off guard. I said but you are screaming at him to stop crying but giving him something to make him cry, how is he suppose to obey you when your the one making him cry now? Stop hitting him! She just got a scared look on her face and grabbed him by the hand and hurried off down another aisle, but at least the litte one was catching his breath by then. SHE is the one I wanted to slap up side the head lol. If I ever saw an adult slap a kid around the head at all, I would get physical quick, then they can call the cops.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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vivico1
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Re: Josie and Peter/ two sides of a coin


vivico1 wrote:
We have a thread about the mothers, what about Peter and Josie, the before, early years. It seems like very very young Peter was an introverted child and Josie was more extroverted. What do you think made them so very different so very young that in kindergarden, Josie would feel the need to stand up for Peter, and what held Peter back? Why did they have such different personalities?


Ok, no takers on why anyone thinks Peter and Josie are so different? lol, how about this and the answers may have possible spoilers so you might want to say that or at least what pages you are past in this part. Let's try the opposite....do you think Josie and Peter are two sides of the same coin? How are they similar if they are? What do you think? Please use spoiler warnings if necessary. But I would love to hear your ideas on this if you think they were or not and what parts made you think what you do. I will share some too :smileywink:.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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Re: Josie and Peter/ two sides of a coin

[ Edited ]


vivico1 wrote:
Ok, no takers on why anyone thinks Peter and Josie are so different?
 
I have comments on all of this stuff. I'll have to do it tomorrow because it's really late now but I have lots to say.



Message Edited by Wrighty on 03-11-2008 03:59 AM
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kiakar
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Re: Josie and Peter/ two sides of a coin



Wrighty wrote:


vivico1 wrote:
Ok, no takers on why anyone thinks Peter and Josie are so different?
 
I have comments on all of this stuff. I'll have to do it tomorrow because it's really late now but I have lots to say.



Message Edited by Wrighty on 03-11-2008 03:59 AM

I think Josie and Peter are alike in the fact that both of their parents are working professionals and for a child alot of times they are very lonely and become quiet children and they both were quiet. Neither made friends that easy. Josie wouldnt have made friends with the cool ones if she hadn't had to do a paper or experiment with one of them. But Josie knew it was to her advantage to stay with the cool side even though I really think Josie missed Peter alot. Its terrible that kids in school are so torn as to who to hang with and who not. At one point, they were excepting Peter and he would not tease someone else and Josie did. But she said, she didn't want people treating her like Peter. Isn't it amazing that teachers did not see or care that this was going on around them.
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Re: Josie and Peter/ two sides of a coin


kiakar wrote:


Wrighty wrote:


vivico1 wrote:
Ok, no takers on why anyone thinks Peter and Josie are so different?
I have comments on all of this stuff. I'll have to do it tomorrow because it's really late now but I have lots to say.



Message Edited by Wrighty on 03-11-2008 03:59 AM

I think Josie and Peter are alike in the fact that both of their parents are working professionals and for a child alot of times they are very lonely and become quiet children and they both were quiet. Neither made friends that easy. Josie wouldnt have made friends with the cool ones if she hadn't had to do a paper or experiment with one of them. But Josie knew it was to her advantage to stay with the cool side even though I really think Josie missed Peter alot. Its terrible that kids in school are so torn as to who to hang with and who not. At one point, they were excepting Peter and he would not tease someone else and Josie did. But she said, she didn't want people treating her like Peter. Isn't it amazing that teachers did not see or care that this was going on around them.



***possible spoiler***
So really, aren't they really alike in the pressures to belong to a group, as so many kids are, but one of the differences is, how each of them handled it? Didn't Josie go along to get along, even when she didnt particularly like it, while Peter withdrew more and more? And with this, then what about them was so different, that one chose one way and one chose the other? Does it go back to the differences between the parents? The differences between how the kids related to their parents? Or the differences in what they experienced even aside from the bullying,such as how Peter was threatened he had to handle it and then he also had to deal with the death of a sibling he sees as being the one they really wanted and Josie didnt have these things to deal with on top of peer pressure? Do you think Josie's way is any better? Or just safer, for all involved? With the right trigger event, could Josie have done the same thing as Peter? These are things I cant quite let go of reading the book, but I do see them very much as two sides of the same coin.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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Re: Josie and Peter



vivico1 wrote:
When Lacy finally finds out what is happening to Peter, all the bullying and that the school wasnt helping really, this brought up a lot of issues to me. Peter tried to get help, ask for help from the teachers and didn't get it. And the school's idea is that HE needs to learn how to fight for himself, tho he gets in trouble for protecting himself if he tries. Talk about damned if you do damned if you dont! I think his cries for help at school that went unheeded or turned on him, further isolated him, even at 6. I know kids sometimes have to be taught ways to stand up to bullies if no one will help but I was personally mortified when Lacy said, if you don't stand up to them, I will have to punish you, you will not get to spend time with Josie,(his only friend). What the heck kind of help is this! What do you guys think of this kind of "help/punishment"? Its like saying to me, if you continue to get beat up, then I am going to beat you up too! I felt Peter was set up to expect no help from adults in his isolation and that he would feel alienated so very young. What a lesson to learn. And to take away his time with the only friend he had? Some of you parents speak to me about your feelings on this and what might you do to help him or have you had to do to help a child being bullied.


 
In my opinion there were many things that happened to Peter over many years. He was so excited for his first day of kindergarten but he had his first really bad experience as soon as he sat down on the bus. He was always a target for the bullies and he must have been absolutely miserable every day that he had to go to school. One reason that this story is bringing out such emotions for me is that he's not a bad kid and he didn't have bad parents. There isn't an big, dark, evil, scary, bad guy here. And although there wasn't nearly enough done to protect Peter, there were efforts to help him through the years. He also seemed to give up any hope of help and stopped telling what was happening to him.
 
I didn't like it either when Lacy was told by his teacher that he needed to toughen up so she told him that he would be grounded if he didn't. Lacy was not happy to do that. She said that she felt horrible but thought she was helping him in the long run. The teacher had been the one to recommend it because she said he was an easy target. Sometimes the bullies were punished, like when his milk was spilled in the cafeteria and the boy had to get Peter another one, but he often would suffer more for it later when the bullies retaliated.
 
Josie had been his only friend and had been a good one for a long time. The fight between their mothers and her being accepted by the popular kids dissolved their bond. He really needed Josie but it's hard to blame her when she had the chance to improve her status with her peers. She wouldn't be picked on anymore, she would have many friends. I think the guilt always followed her though. She did want to help Peter but she couldn't have both.
 
My heart is breaking for Peter. He closed himself off to everyone instead of reaching out for help. He had tried but it didn't work so he shut down. He needed to speak up and shout out for help but I don't think he knew he how. Kids do need to be taught that they can't always defend themselves but there are people who can do it for them. Just like when we teach them about stranger danger and to run for help, he really needed to run for help. He would probably always be a target but he may have found ways to cope and people to stand by him. It didn't have to lead to people being killed. He has such a tragic story.

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Stephanie
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Re: Josie and Peter

Deb,
 
Well said!  I wished there had been one adult in Peter's life who really understood, and at least let him know that he wasn't all alone in it.  Teachers notice, believe me, especially at the high school level, who is getting shoved into lockers and humiliated in the cafeteria on a regular basis.  Granted, my brother's friends tossed him into a dumpster in HS, but they were his friends, it was a joke, no malice aforethought, and there were certainly no hard feelings. 
Stephanie
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vivico1
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Re: Josie and Peter

wrighty wrote:
My heart is breaking for Peter. He closed himself off to everyone instead of reaching out for help. He had tried but it didn't work so he shut down. He needed to speak up and shout out for help but I don't think he knew he how. Kids do need to be taught that they can't always defend themselves but there are people who can do it for them. Just like when we teach them about stranger danger and to run for help, he really needed to run for help. He would probably always be a target but he may have found ways to cope and people to stand by him. It didn't have to lead to people being killed. He has such a tragic story.

___________________________________________________________________________

I feel for Peter, he did try to tell people, but got shut down or even punished for it when he did. Then he also had to deal with the retaliation of the kids for speaking up because there was no adult there to help him, keep him safe. I do know this part, too well, for reasons other than bullying and I can tell you, when your a kid and you tell an adult a hard thing to say to begin with, and they dont help or even punish you like it was your fault, and the abusers know nothing is going to happen to you, they will abuse you again just for talking, so you do shut down something inside and you shut up and you find your own way to survive and its a lonely place for a kid. Sometimes kids can separate that part from themselves and have plenty of friends and learn that peer pressure is nothing in the grand scheme of things, but sometimes, they join the abusers, like Josie did and sometimes sadly, they stay inside themselves until one day, wanting out, wanting to just be, they do something horrendous like Peter did, because no one would do anything for him. His poor young mind couldnt comprehend what his actions would mean, beyond meaning that those bullies would no longer be there.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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vivico1
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Re: Josie and Peter/ outside of school

What do you think about the way Josie treated Peter at the Copy Shop they both worked at for awhile? I thought she could at least be nice to him and be his friend there when they were working alone (thats even sad to put it that way). Do you think Josie had listened to her "in crowd group" talk about him so much that even she saw him in the same way now, or was it her own guilt about deserting him for them, that makes her treat him the way she does, anger at herself in other words? She really has seemed to just desert him altogether, at school and away from school. Is she so stung by peer pressure too, that she doesnt want to take the chance even of being seen around him outside of school at all?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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Re: Josie and Peter/ outside of school



vivico1 wrote:
What do you think about the way Josie treated Peter at the Copy Shop they both worked at for awhile? I thought she could at least be nice to him and be his friend there when they were working alone (thats even sad to put it that way). Do you think Josie had listened to her "in crowd group" talk about him so much that even she saw him in the same way now, or was it her own guilt about deserting him for them, that makes her treat him the way she does, anger at herself in other words? She really has seemed to just desert him altogether, at school and away from school. Is she so stung by peer pressure too, that she doesnt want to take the chance even of being seen around him outside of school at all?

 
When they were young Josie stood up for him all of the time. She seemed so strong and independent. She didn't care what other people thought about her and her choices. She liked Peter and they got along well. As she got older, other peoples' opinions seemed to be more important then her own. Everything she did was determined by the cool kids. She doesn't seem to know herself at all and she comes across as almost desperate for attention and guidance. When she had the chance to join them she jumped right in but it seemed like it was about self defense. If she was cool then she wouldn't be picked on. That also determined how she treated Peter. When they were alone she could have nice chats with him but as soon as anyone else was around she pulled away. It was probably harder for Peter to feel like a friend again for a short time and then have it yanked away than if she just snubbed him all of the time. It must have felt like a roller coaster ride for him.

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vivico1
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Re: Josie and Peter/ outside of school


Wrighty wrote:


vivico1 wrote:
What do you think about the way Josie treated Peter at the Copy Shop they both worked at for awhile? I thought she could at least be nice to him and be his friend there when they were working alone (thats even sad to put it that way). Do you think Josie had listened to her "in crowd group" talk about him so much that even she saw him in the same way now, or was it her own guilt about deserting him for them, that makes her treat him the way she does, anger at herself in other words? She really has seemed to just desert him altogether, at school and away from school. Is she so stung by peer pressure too, that she doesnt want to take the chance even of being seen around him outside of school at all?

When they were young Josie stood up for him all of the time. She seemed so strong and independent. She didn't care what other people thought about her and her choices. She liked Peter and they got along well. As she got older, other peoples' opinions seemed to be more important then her own. Everything she did was determined by the cool kids. She doesn't seem to know herself at all and she comes across as almost desperate for attention and guidance. When she had the chance to join them she jumped right in but it seemed like it was about self defense. If she was cool then she wouldn't be picked on. That also determined how she treated Peter. When they were alone she could have nice chats with him but as soon as anyone else was around she pulled away. It was probably harder for Peter to feel like a friend again for a short time and then have it yanked away than if she just snubbed him all of the time. It must have felt like a roller coaster ride for him.




I agree with you there, this had to be really hard for him. Talk about mixed signals. You know, tho, it may have saved Josie's life. If she hadn't been nice just enough to make him feel something, he may have killed her too for deserting him. Probably why he circled her face for a target and then changed it.

Josie is as afraid of bullying as Peter in her own way, they were both victims of it in some way. Each took a different way of handling it, but neither way turned out to be a good choice unfortunately.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Littlelizzy042
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Re: Josie and Peter

[ Edited ]
*****Possible Spoilers******









I think Josie and Peter are alike in that they're both a little different than everyone else, on the inside. I feel like Peter is the only person who ever really understood Josie's true self, which is why, even after how she treated him, he chose not to target her in the end. He also knew that she was the only one who ever really understood him, because she was the only one who ever tried to.
Peter and Josie had very different role models in their lives, which contributes to how they were different. Peter's mother Lacy was very sensitive and loving, and the example she set for him reflected that. I believe that this is why he's so much more quiet and sensitive in comparison to Josie. It's interesting though, when confronted with the issue of Peter getting bullied, Lacy tried to get him to change himself and fight back.
Josie's mother Alex always seemed to have a wall around her. She always used her "judge" voice with Josie, and that set the example for her that it was okay, even prefered, for people to put up walls and mask who they really are. Josie realized that if she hung around with Peter and was more up front about her true self, she would be a target for bullying like he was. So, when given the opportunity, she put on a fake mask and became popular.

Message Edited by Littlelizzy042 on 03-19-2008 03:56 PM
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vivico1
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Re: Josie and Peter


Littlelizzy042 wrote:
*****Possible Spoilers******









I think Josie and Peter are alike in that they're both a little different than everyone else, on the inside. I feel like Peter is the only person who ever really understood Josie's true self, which is why, even after how she treated him, he chose not to target her in the end. He also knew that she was the only one who ever really understood him, because she was the only one who ever tried to.
Peter and Josie had very different role models in their lives, which contributes to how they were different. Peter's mother Lacy was very sensitive and loving, and the example she set for him reflected that. I believe that this is why he's so much more quiet and sensitive in comparison to Josie. It's interesting though, when confronted with the issue of Peter getting bullied, Lacy tried to get him to change himself and fight back.
Josie's mother Alex always seemed to have a wall around her. She always used her "judge" voice with Josie, and that set the example for her that it was okay, even prefered, for people to put up walls and mask who they really are. Josie realized that if she hung around with Peter and was more up front about her true self, she would be a target for bullying like he was. So, when given the opportunity, she put on a fake mask and became popular.

Message Edited by Littlelizzy042 on 03-19-2008 03:56 PM


I like your line here about Peter being the only one to really understand Josie. We have spent so much time talking about who understood Peter and Josie understanding him, that yeah, that might have gotten lost, that he was able to really understand her, even tho it hurt him so. Poor Peter just kept getting mixed signals from everyone. A parent who cherishes his sensitive side, then tells him to fight back or he will be punished. A school that says tell an adult but then tell him to take care of himself or punishes him along with the bullies. Josie, who was so close to him when they were young and now acts like he is the joke to stay away from like the others. There has been no consistency in how adults or his friend treats him throughout his life. The only consistency in how he is treated by anyone, is by the bullies. When the enemies in your life who hurt you are the only constant, what is a person going to learn but to give in to them forever or destroy them, when all your other options carry such confusion and no results?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Stephanie
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Re: Josie and Peter

I think if we really got inside the heads of any of these kids, we would feel for all of them - even the ones that Peter calls jerks, and wonders why anyone is sorry for.  I suppose most kids are insecure in some way or other- and the bully certainly isn't doing it because he's mentally healthy.
 
Of course, the only truly "cool" kids are the ones who aren't wrapped up in a clique, don't allow people to get under their skin, and are "above" all the high school angst and drama about which teenagers seem so fond.  Those are probably the only kids who look back on high school and view it as a good experience!
 
 
Stephanie
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kiakar
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Re: Josie and Peter



Stephanie wrote:
I think if we really got inside the heads of any of these kids, we would feel for all of them - even the ones that Peter calls jerks, and wonders why anyone is sorry for.  I suppose most kids are insecure in some way or other- and the bully certainly isn't doing it because he's mentally healthy.
 
Of course, the only truly "cool" kids are the ones who aren't wrapped up in a clique, don't allow people to get under their skin, and are "above" all the high school angst and drama about which teenagers seem so fond.  Those are probably the only kids who look back on high school and view it as a good experience!
 
 


You are so right, STephanie. And this group of truly "cool" kids were very small I believe through out the years and still are.  How do we instill security and confidence in our children so this will not happen. Either the bully or the bullied. Both are very unhappy campers in a world of many of both.I feel interaction with youth groups and parents help kids have confidence, feel good about self and others. There are so many ways a child can feel loved and important that we need to work on these with children at a very young age. Do people know of any sort of things out there in our communties. ?
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Stephanie
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Re: Josie and Peter

Linda,
 
I suppose you can give a person a level of self-confidence, but so often parents of young children praise every mark on a piece of paper, every little curl on the head, every utterance, that the kids know it's just talk and they know they'll get praise for doing almost nothing.  So what's to strive for?  Real confidence comes from real effort, a job well done, a feeling that when you've done your best, you're appreciated.  Unfortunately, greed and speed have taken over everything- we've become an "I want it all and I want it now" society.  I was just reading an article that showed a statistic on 17 year old readers... we are up to 19% who NEVER (or rarely) read for pleasure.  Reading takes time, concentration, quiet, and an atmosphere conducive to restfulness that's rare in a teenager's life today.  Movies and television are delivered "on-demand"  - we have "instant" messages for writing notes - why sit in silence and read?  It's like work to them.   We've taken away most of the responsibility children had in the past as well - I can't tell you how many of my 12 y/o son's friends do NO chores at home, and aren't ever asked to do any.  I taught one of his friends how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich when he was 11 years old.  Self-confidence?  From what? 
Stephanie
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Josie and Peter

Stephanie, you are right, feeling good about their selves certainly is not the only thing kids need. You are right. Responsibility is a major! Consequences  for not following rules. It is alot to raising children, if only people would know what they do does make a heck of a difference.
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