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SingPraise
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2

Rita: hmm...
I do not believe she is a deatheater, but one can be sure that her Albus Dumbledore Biography is rubbish. (I repeat RUBBISH). Everything that this book is no. The only thing in common is that they are fictional. Anywho, Let's recall Book 5Harry hoped that Sirius Black had the mirror 2 ommunicate w/ Harry. Perhaps Dumbledore had it... Perhaps it can see into the world of the dead as a link between our world and theirs.



"Curious, Very Curious" - Mr. Ollivander (Sniffle)
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SingPraise
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2



APenForYourThoughts wrote:
Okay, I lied when I posted for Chapter 1. I'm going to post every chapter, or almost every chapter, because I want to prolong the experience. This is the last book, after all. :smileysad: :smileysad: :smileysad: to infinity!!!
While reading Chapter 2, I had a thought about Dumbledore's response to Harry's question as to what he saw in the mirror. What if Dumbledore really did see thick, woolen socks, but it's symbolic? As we know, house elves are freed when they are given clothes by their master. Maybe Dumbledore's deepest desire was to be free from the torments of knowledge and secrets and mysteries and frustration and not knowing, so this manifested itself in the mirror as Dumbledore being given clothes, and therefore being freed? This is probably a completely stupid idea, but it's just a thought. I have no clue what Dumbledore really saw in the mirror. Off to read Chapter 3!!!!!

Message Edited by APenForYourThoughts on 07-22-2007 06:44 PM




Good Idea. Remember the Pensive in Book 4? A.D. said that sometimes people had too many memories and needed to get them out of their head. Perhaps there are somethings he couldn't remove.

As a side note, did anyne notice Dumbledore's initials (the short version) spell A.D. (Anno Domini, the year of our lord as opposed to B.C.) Maybe this is symbolic o a clue! Maybe Dumbledore is not dead. After all A.D. started when the big J.C. (Jesus Christ was born) hmm....

"I can't think of a good quote for this post" - SingPraise(me)
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Krisleyyy
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2

lhendrie wrote:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mermaidgirl wrote:
Does anyone have any thoughts about the piece of enchanted mirror that cut Harry's finger? I wondered if, like the wall in the cave in HBP, blood caused the reaction. When Harry's cut finger touched the edge of the mirror again, Harry saw the flash of blue. And what was the flash? A reflection of something or someone or something else?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I thought that when Sirus gave Harry this mirror it worked sort of like a walkie talkie. The other person had to have the mirror for you to see and talk to the person. However, it never mentioned that the mirror would work with someone who was dead.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Harry saw a flash of blue in the mirror though. I don't think Sirius had blue eyes. Maybe someone else has the other mirror now?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

maybe sirius gave dumbledore the other part of the mirror before sirius died. I wouldn't understand why, but i guess it makes sense, maybe it's spilt into more then just two parts. there has to be a way he can reconnect with dumbledore right?
________________________________________________________________
Juliet loves the beat;;
and the lust it commands.
Drop the dagger;;
and lather the blood on your hands,
Romeo.
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Krisleyyy
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2

oo and i HATE Rita!
________________________________________________________________
Juliet loves the beat;;
and the lust it commands.
Drop the dagger;;
and lather the blood on your hands,
Romeo.
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eve05
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2

[ Edited ]
Harry is packing to leave 4 Privet drive. Will the items he brings, be important later?

He reads two articles in the Daily Prophet about Dumbledore. The first, supposedly written by a childhood friend, Elphias Doge, is full of nasty innuendoes. And the second, is a scurrilous interview of Rita Skeeter's reminiscences of Dumbledore.
Obviously the newspaper has fallen under the influence of Voldemort.
Question 6: But are there really skeletons in Dumbledore's closet? In "Snape's Worst Memory" [OoP 646-649] Harry discovered that his father was far from perfect.
Harry begins to have doubts about Dumbledore. He realizes he doesn't really know much about DD's past. The only time he he did ask DD a personal question was what he saw in the Mirror of Erised [SS214]. DD seemed to put him off. "I see myself holding a pair of thick, woolen socks."
Question 7: What did DD mean by wanting thick, woolen socks? I always thought that DD missed having a large family. A family with aunts, grandmothers, cousins etc., who hand-knitted heavy woolen socks. (My Canadian grandmother did, but my uncle who wore them, secretly complained that they itched terribly).

Sirius' mirror flashes blue when Harry handles it after he had cut his finger. Has Harry finally found how to evoke its magic? If it's a possible a connection to Sirius, why isn't he elated about the possibilities? Why does he think of Dumbledore's blue eyes? This is a non-sequitur.
Question 8: Will Harry be able to communicate with Sirius beyond the veil? When fans complained of Sirius death, JKR said that his death was necessary for the plot development.

The quote at the beginning of the book gives us hope that Harry will see his beloved godfather again.
"Death is but crossing the world as friends do the seas; they live in one another still. ...In this divine glass, they see face to face; and their converse is free.... This is the comfort of friends, that though they may be said to die, yet their friendship and society are, in the best sense, ever present... " William Penn More Fruits of Solitude [DH xi]

Message Edited by eve05 on 07-26-2007 07:36 PM
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Nadine
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2

eveo5
Question 7: What did DD mean by wanting thick, woolen socks? I always thought that DD missed having a large family. A family with aunts, grandmothers, cousins etc., who hand-knitted heavy woolen socks. (My Canadian grandmother did, but my uncle who wore them, secretly complained that they itched terribly).
--------------------------------------

I interpreted this the same way you did as Dumbledore just wanting a simple and home-type life with warm socks, a good (light) book, and a comfortable chair by a fireplace, without all the demands of his position.
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Nadine
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2

eve05 said

Sirius' mirror flashes blue when Harry handles it after he had cut his finger. Has Harry finally found how to evoke its magic? If it's a possible a connection to Sirius, why isn't he elated about the possibilities? Why does he think of Dumbledore's blue eyes? This is a non-sequitur.
Question 8: Will Harry be able to communicate with Sirius beyond the veil? When fans complained of Sirius death, JKR said that his death was necessary for the plot development.

The quote at the beginning of the book gives us hope that Harry will see his beloved godfather again.
"Death is but crossing the world as friends do the seas; they live in one another still. ...In this divine glass, they see face to face; and their converse is free.... This is the comfort of friends, that though they may be said to die, yet their friendship and society are, in the best sense, ever present... " William Penn More Fruits of Solitude [DH xi]
---------------------------------

Very good, eve05! I didn't make this connection. Of course a "glass" is a mirror. It is an idea worth thinking about.

We don't know (I think) if Sirius had the mirror with him when he went through the veil. The blue eye, though, would suggest Dumbledore, who could have the mirror Sirius left behind. Dumbledore knew his days were numbered back in the HBP so he was prepared.

As an aside, can't Harry talk to Dumbledore and get his advice through his portrait?

Actually, I think the removal of Sirius and Dumbledore was necessary since the "hero" must eventually go it alone. This book is Harry's "alone" quest and all the decisions must be his. But I don't see why a bit information from his mentors in some form might not be allowed.
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Nadine
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2

eve05
Question 6: But are there really skeletons in Dumbledore's closet? In "Snape's Worst Memory" [OoP 646-649] Harry discovered that his father was far from perfect.
Harry begins to have doubts about Dumbledore. He realizes he doesn't really know much about DD's past.
----------------------------------

I think, Eve, that you are coming up with some very good questions. JKR has left some of our villains vague and she has shown that some of our heroes have faults. A good point to make--everything isn't black and white. We are definitely being set up for some negative things about DD whether true or not.

From the very first book, I felt that DD was testing Harry and his friends. Like the trip through the trap door. The tasks seemed less like measures to keep someone out and more like tasks to be solved by each member of the group to prove themselves. When we were talking about the Sorcerer's Stone I had a theory that DD had some sort of plan for Harry. He was the only one who knew the prophesy. He definitely had some ideas and a plan in HBP that he was communicating to Harry and I'm not sure he completed everything he had to say. Maybe that is what the mirror is for. I can't imagine DD as a DE like Snape was. But maybe, like Slughorn, his actions might have been something he regretted in dealing with that "nice boy" Tom Riddle.

But then when I start to believe Rita I think I'm in real trouble!!
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eve05
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2


Nadine wrote:
Very good, eve05! I didn't make this connection. Of course a "glass" is a mirror. It is an idea worth thinking about.

We don't know (I think) if Sirius had the mirror with him when he went through the veil. The blue eye, though, would suggest Dumbledore, who could have the mirror Sirius left behind. Dumbledore knew his days were numbered back in the HBP so he was prepared.

As an aside, can't Harry talk to Dumbledore and get his advice through his portrait?

Actually, I think the removal of Sirius and Dumbledore was necessary since the "hero" must eventually go it alone. This book is Harry's "alone" quest and all the decisions must be his. But I don't see why a bit information from his mentors in some form might not be allowed.



True, it was never mentioned whether Sirius had the mirror with him when he rushed to MoM to rescue Harry. Harry tried to contact him, but it never seem to work. But he never had put his blood on it---maybe that makes the other mirror 'ring' (like a telephone--hey pick up the phone, I want to talk to you :smileyhappy: )

Dumbledore was asleep in his portrait the last time Harry went into the headmasters office. Maybe he will awaken in DH and Harry will be able to to communicate with both Dumbledore(portrait) and Sirius(mirror) who have 'crossed over' to the other side.
It's going to be Harry's quest but a little advice (DD) and encouragement (SB) would be nice.
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eve05
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2


Nadine wrote:
eve05
Question 6: But are there really skeletons in Dumbledore's closet? In "Snape's Worst Memory" [OoP 646-649] Harry discovered that his father was far from perfect.
Harry begins to have doubts about Dumbledore. He realizes he doesn't really know much about DD's past.
----------------------------------

I think, Eve, that you are coming up with some very good questions. JKR has left some of our villains vague and she has shown that some of our heroes have faults. A good point to make--everything isn't black and white. We are definitely being set up for some negative things about DD whether true or not.

From the very first book, I felt that DD was testing Harry and his friends. Like the trip through the trap door. The tasks seemed less like measures to keep someone out and more like tasks to be solved by each member of the group to prove themselves. When we were talking about the Sorcerer's Stone I had a theory that DD had some sort of plan for Harry. He was the only one who knew the prophesy. He definitely had some ideas and a plan in HBP that he was communicating to Harry and I'm not sure he completed everything he had to say. Maybe that is what the mirror is for. I can't imagine DD as a DE like Snape was. But maybe, like Slughorn, his actions might have been something he regretted in dealing with that "nice boy" Tom Riddle.

But then when I start to believe Rita I think I'm in real trouble!!





I've also felt that Dumbledore was teaching, guiding, and helping Harry through the books...putting him through an extensive training program, while staying discretely in the background. In the later books I think DD even got Snape to join in the training program by persuading him to let Harry use his potions book.

But your observation that he had regrets for not guiding (or dealing with) Tom Riddle is interesting. I don't think there was anything he could have done to prevent Tom Riddle from turning into Lord Voldemort.

Of course no one is perfect, and our heroes do have flaws. There is something on Dumbledore's conscience. His reaction to the green potion opens up a lot of questions.
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eve05
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2



Of course no one is perfect, and our heroes do have flaws. There is something on Dumbledore's conscience. His reaction to the green potion opens up a lot of questions.


To add to my previous post(I wasn't able to edit it)
question 9: Will we understand Dumbledore's reation to the green potion he drank in the cave?


"It's all my fault, all my fault," he sobbed. "Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again..."

"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..."

"Please, please, please, no... not that. I'll do anything..."

"I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!"

"KILL ME!"

Dumbledore is feeling tremendous remorse about something that happened in his past.
People are being hurt and he feels responsible. But who are they? I hope we will find out in DH.

The 'dirt' that Rita Skeeter hints at, that he:
Dabbled in the Dark Arts in his youth
Stole someone else's discovery on the uses of Dragon Blood and claimed it as his own
Exagerated his role in Gridelwald's downfall
Had an unhealthy relationship with Harry Potter

All do not explain his extreme distress in the cave
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Lupingirl
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2



Nadine wrote:
eveo5
Question 7: What did DD mean by wanting thick, woolen socks? I always thought that DD missed having a large family. A family with aunts, grandmothers, cousins etc., who hand-knitted heavy woolen socks. (My Canadian grandmother did, but my uncle who wore them, secretly complained that they itched terribly).
--------------------------------------

I interpreted this the same way you did as Dumbledore just wanting a simple and home-type life with warm socks, a good (light) book, and a comfortable chair by a fireplace, without all the demands of his position.




I also interpreted the socks as symbolizing warmth, love, and family. Which would explain why the Dursleys would have given Harry Vernon's shabby castoffs as a gift.

I am curious now if he was telling the truth and if not, what would he have seen?
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tee
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2

[ Edited ]
I can not stand Rita Skeeter. I feel really sorry for Harry. He's so confused. He's at a crossroads of what he thinks he knows about DD and what lies have been told to him about DD. It makes you want hit Rita with her notebook.

Message Edited by tee on 08-03-2007 10:43 PM
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Re: Discuss Chapter 2

Many authors, JKR and George Lucas included, have used the outline found in Joseph Campbell's book "the hero with a thousand faces" as the basis for their story. Mr Lucas freely admits that the American Professor, who spent his life researching plot lines, themes and story arc's of the worlds myth's, legends and fables, was a guide for his six part story. The entire story arch is described here, in Dr. Scarpin's SCARPnotes; but, basically includes a reluctant hero being "called" into a quest assisted by a "mentor" who guides and teaches. The mentor MUST leave the story in order for the hero (and us) to discern whether or not he has "internalized" the mentor's teachings.

Ms. Rowling seems to be expanding, clarifying and enhancing Harry's loss of Dumbledore and crystalizing his future choice of whether or not Dumbledore was a "true" mentor.
Dr. Robert R Scarpin
Dr Scarpin's SCARPnotes
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