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APenForYourThoughts
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

Oh. My. Lord. By far, the best chapter in Harry Potter history. I'm going to try to present this in some sort of order, even though I'm just so -- I don't even know what I am right now.
First of all, I was sad Lupin and Tonks were dead. That was the first time I got teary-eyed in this book.
I LOVE SEVERUS SNAPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I couldn't decide for the longest time whether he was good or evil, but I think deep down I was hoping he was a good guy, and he is. Those memories are heartwrenching, but so beautiful. His love for Lily is ridiculously amazing. (He reminds me of Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights, except WAY less awful.) I agree that some of it must have been planted by JKR herself online before the book came out. Like the editorial I recommended somewhere else on one of these HP boards, "Severus Snape in Love?" at mugglenet.com. I'll have to go back and reread the editorial, but I'm pretty sure everything that was said in that editorial was true. And it was very touching to see Snape tearing Lily's signature out of her letter and sobbing. But I wish that Snape had actually liked Harry, rather than just doing all of it for Lily. I think I would have been weeping if that had happened.
And Harry does have to die. I have thought this for the longest time, but I was beginning to think (at the beginning of this chapter) that maybe it wouldn't happen. But I'm guessing it will. If Harry does die, kudos to JKR for not conforming to the "happily ever after" children's book ending. (Sorry, kpeterson32.) I'll be sad, though.
I said in my post for chapter 32 that I hardly ever cry at books or movies, but that I got kind of teary-eyed at Dumbledore's death. Well, everyone, this should prove to you the power of this scene (as though anyone actually doubts it): I cried. Not much, but I did cry.
I'm going to calm down and read the rest of the book.
"A book must be the axe for the frozen sea inside us." --Kafka
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rosezeata
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33



Visionaria4 wrote:
This was mentioned already but nobody had any possible explanations-- we now know that Snape found out about the plan from Dumbledore, but where did Dumbledore find out from? I thought maybe Mundungus was Snape's informant and Snape had told Dumbledore and they were just discussing it, but that doesn't make sense because from that conversation it didn't seem as though Snape has any real contact with Mundungus outside from that one time. I also thought maybe Dumbledore visited another portrait to find out, but there is none at the Burrow (new OOTP headquarters), so that made no sense either. Anybody have an idea?





This is far out there but what about those frog cards? I mean could they be used like a painting, moved form one to the the other. When Harry first unwrapped D and looked at him then looked back D was gone from the card, could they somehow be used to relay info. That could be why D was ok with everything they where doing to him in book 5 as long as they didn't remove him form those cards. Silly but yet . . .
Happy reading, never let yourself be found without a book near by.
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Lupingirl
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

This is the chapter I have been waiting for since POA.

First, I have to say I did a double take when I saw that Lupin had died. I was heartbroken. I was so hoping that he would make it through, though I thought that perhaps because the other Marauders were all gone that he would not.


As for the meat of the chapter, I have been a loyal believer that Snape was on the right side the whole time, but JKR made me have doubts. I was getting downright disheartened - right up until the Doe Patronus shows Harry the sword. That was when I knew - and when I read that chapter, I was dancing around and woke up my room mate to tell him I was right about Snape - He loved Lily and that was his patronus and it represented her and that was why he was loyal to the Order!!! (My roomie of course ha NO idea what I was talking about)

When I read Chap 33, I cried the whole time (I started crying when Snape died in 32), and all I could think was 'at least he got to look into Lily's eyes as he died' at least metaphorically speaking. And perhaps, through Harry's understanding of his actions and motivation, he was redeemed in her eyes as well.

This chapter throws a new light on scenes throughout the series that involve Snape. Snape's worst memory was not his worst because of what James did to him, but because of what he himself said about Lily and the resultant end to their friendship. In the Shrieking Shack, he was so intent on 'capturing' Sirius and later went ballistic when Sirius escaped because he believed Sirius to be the man who betrayed Lily to her death. I am sure there are more, but these are the big ones that popped out at me from memory.

I am so entirely satisfied with the way JKR did this chapter. I do in some way wish that Snape had died actually trying to kill Nagini or some other such valiant act, but it would seem so contrary to his character that I don't know how Harry would have dealt with it! Also, it seems more fitting that his death be almost pointless - it is in keeping with what (to me at least) seems a very tragic life.
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yoyoally2
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

OMG!!! This chapter made me cry so much! The fact that Snape was COMPLETLY in love with Lily was sooo romantic!!! That was one of the BEST parts in the book! I felt soooo bad for Snape after he died (or after i read this chater; i was happy at first when i read that he died) Snape is the best and bravest character in the whole series!!! He is my favorite character!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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yoyoally2
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

I think that someone from the order, like McGonegall (because she was headmistriss) talked to Dumbledore's painting and then when Snape came Dumbledore told him. IDK how Snape got into Hogwarts when almost everone in the world was looking for him. Maybe someone should call up J.K. Rowling and ask her!! lol
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yoyoally2
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

I cried at that part!!!! Snape is like the best character ever!!!!
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acciobrain
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

Wow...what a touching, sad, beautiful chapter! The absolute best in the series!
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HarryIsMyHomeboy
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

[ Edited ]
Wow, this chapter was intense.

Firstly, I was devastated when I read that Lupin and Tonks were dead...absolutely devastated. Lupin was the last real thing to a father Harry had...and it was especially wrenching because they had just had a child together. Little Teddy Lupin will grow up an orphan just as Harry did, which leaves an echo of Harry's past.

Secondly, this chapter was the one I have been waiting for: the truth of Snape's past and loyalties finally being revealed. It made me desperately happy to know that Snape was Dumbledore's man, and that he was trustworthy. I knew it, always, that he was on the side of Light. And this scene makes you really re-evaluate everything that had happened with Snape prior: in the Penseive, it wasn't James humiliating him that made it his worst memory, but the fact that he had called Lily a mudblood and that resulted in the end of their friendship; the argument with Dumbledore, about Snape questioning the motives behind why Albus had to die...

The coin of redemption was also played in this chapter (as it has a lot throughout this book and throughout this series). Snape was crushed over the loss of Lily, and admitted to Dumbledore that he discussed with Voldemort letting Lily live in exchange for Harry's death-I cannot remember Albus ever being so angry...it was frightening. "You disgust me" was what Dumbledore said. But Snape said that he would do anything to keep them all safe, and when Lily and James died, he repent, and felt remorse-which is something Voldemort could never do. "I wish I were dead..."

But he had promised to do anything, and Harry was, after all, Lily's son...he agreed to help Dumbledore protect Lily's son. And while it is argued that Snape was cruel, bitter, and resentful towards Harry (and he WAS), it is also not deniable that Snape put his life on the line time and again for Harry's sake. He protected Harry until the very end. He did the right thing, and there lies his redemption. I always knew that Snape was good, and had Harry's best interests (read: Lily's) at heart. He was flawed, of course, but an incredibly brave and heroic all the same.

I wanted to mention as well the the anger (however fleeting, since I have finished the book) I had for Dumbledore when I read that Dumbledore had "kept him [Harry] alive so that he can die at the right moment?" and the rushing of gratitude I had for Snape for calling Dumbledore out.

For Snape, who had risked life time and again to protect Lily's son, learning that Harry was being, essentially, raised to die, had to have been a huge blow.

Finally, when Phineas called Hermione a Mudblood and Snape said, "Do not use that word!" - my heart rushed with happiness.




Also, as I just re-read this quote below, it struck me: The last thing that Severus wanted to see before he died were Lily's eyes. It gives me chills and breaks my heart.


'"'Look...at...me'' he whispered. The green eyes found the black, but after a second, something in the depths of the dark pair seemed to vanish, leaving them fixed, blank, and empty. The hand holding Harry thudded to the floor, and Snape moved no more.'

~Page 658

Message Edited by HarryIsMyHomeboy on 07-30-2007 11:54 PM
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

wow HarryIsMyHomeboy, you write a lot. lol
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sheepdog789
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

Can someone help me to understand on page 677

"What request could a death eater make of me?" asks Dumbledore. "The Prophecy..the prediction..Trelawney"-Snape

"How much did you relay to Lord Voldemort?"
"Everything....That is why it is for that reason--he thinks it means Lily Evans!"

Does Snape feel it is his fault that Voldemort went after Lily?

What do you think?
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Psychee
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33



sheepdog789 wrote:
Can someone help me to understand on page 677

"What request could a death eater make of me?" asks Dumbledore. "The Prophecy..the prediction..Trelawney"-Snape

"How much did you relay to Lord Voldemort?"
"Everything....That is why it is for that reason--he thinks it means Lily Evans!"

Does Snape feel it is his fault that Voldemort went after Lily?

What do you think?




Oh, yes, most definitely!
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Jen525
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

HarryIsMyHomeboy, this chapter was intense, and your post summed it up.

In the time between books 6 & 7, I was on the fence about Snape's loyalties. After the beginning broomstick battle in book 7, i was convinced Snape was a bad guy all this time. But, after this chapter, we see Dumbledore did have an iron clad reason for trusting him as McGonagall and Lupin discussed after Dumbledore's death.

My big question is, did Snape actually develop feelings for Harry, the question Dumbledore asked him?

Wonder what school was like this year in Harry's absence, I mean with Snape being headmaster and McGonagall and others knowing he was the one who killed Dumbledore.








HarryIsMyHomeboy wrote:
Wow, this chapter was intense.

Firstly, I was devastated when I read that Lupin and Tonks were dead...absolutely devastated. Lupin was the last real thing to a father Harry had...and it was especially wrenching because they had just had a child together. Little Teddy Lupin will grow up an orphan just as Harry did, which leaves an echo of Harry's past.

Secondly, this chapter was the one I have been waiting for: the truth of Snape's past and loyalties finally being revealed. It made me desperately happy to know that Snape was Dumbledore's man, and that he was trustworthy. I knew it, always, that he was on the side of Light. And this scene makes you really re-evaluate everything that had happened with Snape prior: in the Penseive, it wasn't James humiliating him that made it his worst memory, but the fact that he had called Lily a mudblood and that resulted in the end of their friendship; the argument with Dumbledore, about Snape questioning the motives behind why Albus had to die...

The coin of redemption was also played in this chapter (as it has a lot throughout this book and throughout this series). Snape was crushed over the loss of Lily, and admitted to Dumbledore that he discussed with Voldemort letting Lily live in exchange for Harry's death-I cannot remember Albus ever being so angry...it was frightening. "You disgust me" was what Dumbledore said. But Snape said that he would do anything to keep them all safe, and when Lily and James died, he repent, and felt remorse-which is something Voldemort could never do. "I wish I were dead..."

But he had promised to do anything, and Harry was, after all, Lily's son...he agreed to help Dumbledore protect Lily's son. And while it is argued that Snape was cruel, bitter, and resentful towards Harry (and he WAS), it is also not deniable that Snape put his life on the line time and again for Harry's sake. He protected Harry until the very end. He did the right thing, and there lies his redemption. I always knew that Snape was good, and had Harry's best interests (read: Lily's) at heart. He was flawed, of course, but an incredibly brave and heroic all the same.

I wanted to mention as well the the anger (however fleeting, since I have finished the book) I had for Dumbledore when I read that Dumbledore had "kept him [Harry] alive so that he can die at the right moment?" and the rushing of gratitude I had for Snape for calling Dumbledore out.

For Snape, who had risked life time and again to protect Lily's son, learning that Harry was being, essentially, raised to die, had to have been a huge blow.

Finally, when Phineas called Hermione a Mudblood and Snape said, "Do not use that word!" - my heart rushed with happiness.




Also, as I just re-read this quote below, it struck me: The last thing that Severus wanted to see before he died were Lily's eyes. It gives me chills and breaks my heart.


'"'Look...at...me'' he whispered. The green eyes found the black, but after a second, something in the depths of the dark pair seemed to vanish, leaving them fixed, blank, and empty. The hand holding Harry thudded to the floor, and Snape moved no more.'

~Page 658

Message Edited by HarryIsMyHomeboy on 07-30-2007 11:54 PM


"Imagine losing fingernails, Harry! That really puts our sufferings into perspective, doesn't it?" (Hermione, p383)
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Jen525
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33



Psychee wrote:


sheepdog789 wrote:
Can someone help me to understand on page 677

"What request could a death eater make of me?" asks Dumbledore. "The Prophecy..the prediction..Trelawney"-Snape

"How much did you relay to Lord Voldemort?"
"Everything....That is why it is for that reason--he thinks it means Lily Evans!"

Does Snape feel it is his fault that Voldemort went after Lily?

What do you think?




Oh, yes, most definitely!





Yes, Snape feels it is his fault Lily was killed, since he relayed what he heard of the prophecy. If he never would have mentioned the prohpecy, who knows what would have happened.
"Imagine losing fingernails, Harry! That really puts our sufferings into perspective, doesn't it?" (Hermione, p383)
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HarryIsMyHomeboy
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

That's a good question!

I think there was too much of James in Harry for Snape to ever truly develop feelings for him. Everything Snape did, every risk he took, was not to protect 'Harry', but to protect Lily's son. For Severus, there was a big distinction between the two. He loved Lily Evans and he despised James Potter...but it was, in part, Snape's fault that Lily ended up dead. He felt so much remorse for the part he played in her death that he was willing to do anything for her, anything to assuage the guilt he felt. For him, that meant protecting Lily's son, much as that son reminded him of the man that, in his mind, took Lily from him. Snape would have done anything for Lily, would have died for Lily, and so he put that emotion into his job - for that's what it was.

I can't recall the interview now, but someone asked Jo if Snape would have cared about Harry's fate were he not Lily's son, and the answer was 'no.' Anything he felt was for Lily, always, after all that time.


And I am sure Hogwarts was a palpably tense place to be: especially since the staff (Flitwick, McGonnagal, Sprout, etc) thought Snape to be a murderer. He couldn't tell them otherwise, because Dumbledore told him he could tell no one, and who would have believed him if he did? It was lucky, though, that Snape and the others were there, because they all helped (even Snape, unknowing to the rest) protect the students from the Death Eaters who were running rampant.




Jen525 wrote:

My big question is, did Snape actually develop feelings for Harry, the question Dumbledore asked him?

Wonder what school was like this year in Harry's absence, I mean with Snape being headmaster and McGonagall and others knowing he was the one who killed Dumbledore.








HarryIsMyHomeboy wrote:
Wow, this chapter was intense.

Firstly, I was devastated when I read that Lupin and Tonks were dead...absolutely devastated. Lupin was the last real thing to a father Harry had...and it was especially wrenching because they had just had a child together. Little Teddy Lupin will grow up an orphan just as Harry did, which leaves an echo of Harry's past.

Secondly, this chapter was the one I have been waiting for: the truth of Snape's past and loyalties finally being revealed. It made me desperately happy to know that Snape was Dumbledore's man, and that he was trustworthy. I knew it, always, that he was on the side of Light. And this scene makes you really re-evaluate everything that had happened with Snape prior: in the Penseive, it wasn't James humiliating him that made it his worst memory, but the fact that he had called Lily a mudblood and that resulted in the end of their friendship; the argument with Dumbledore, about Snape questioning the motives behind why Albus had to die...

The coin of redemption was also played in this chapter (as it has a lot throughout this book and throughout this series). Snape was crushed over the loss of Lily, and admitted to Dumbledore that he discussed with Voldemort letting Lily live in exchange for Harry's death-I cannot remember Albus ever being so angry...it was frightening. "You disgust me" was what Dumbledore said. But Snape said that he would do anything to keep them all safe, and when Lily and James died, he repent, and felt remorse-which is something Voldemort could never do. "I wish I were dead..."

But he had promised to do anything, and Harry was, after all, Lily's son...he agreed to help Dumbledore protect Lily's son. And while it is argued that Snape was cruel, bitter, and resentful towards Harry (and he WAS), it is also not deniable that Snape put his life on the line time and again for Harry's sake. He protected Harry until the very end. He did the right thing, and there lies his redemption. I always knew that Snape was good, and had Harry's best interests (read: Lily's) at heart. He was flawed, of course, but an incredibly brave and heroic all the same.

I wanted to mention as well the the anger (however fleeting, since I have finished the book) I had for Dumbledore when I read that Dumbledore had "kept him [Harry] alive so that he can die at the right moment?" and the rushing of gratitude I had for Snape for calling Dumbledore out.

For Snape, who had risked life time and again to protect Lily's son, learning that Harry was being, essentially, raised to die, had to have been a huge blow.

Finally, when Phineas called Hermione a Mudblood and Snape said, "Do not use that word!" - my heart rushed with happiness.




Also, as I just re-read this quote below, it struck me: The last thing that Severus wanted to see before he died were Lily's eyes. It gives me chills and breaks my heart.


'"'Look...at...me'' he whispered. The green eyes found the black, but after a second, something in the depths of the dark pair seemed to vanish, leaving them fixed, blank, and empty. The hand holding Harry thudded to the floor, and Snape moved no more.'

~Page 658

Message Edited by HarryIsMyHomeboy on 07-30-2007 11:54 PM





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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

Thanks for the insight! That makes a lot of sense.
:smileyhappy:





HarryIsMyHomeboy wrote:
That's a good question!

I think there was too much of James in Harry for Snape to ever truly develop feelings for him. Everything Snape did, every risk he took, was not to protect 'Harry', but to protect Lily's son. For Severus, there was a big distinction between the two. He loved Lily Evans and he despised James Potter...but it was, in part, Snape's fault that Lily ended up dead. He felt so much remorse for the part he played in her death that he was willing to do anything for her, anything to assuage the guilt he felt. For him, that meant protecting Lily's son, much as that son reminded him of the man that, in his mind, took Lily from him. Snape would have done anything for Lily, would have died for Lily, and so he put that emotion into his job - for that's what it was.

I can't recall the interview now, but someone asked Jo if Snape would have cared about Harry's fate were he not Lily's son, and the answer was 'no.' Anything he felt was for Lily, always, after all that time.


And I am sure Hogwarts was a palpably tense place to be: especially since the staff (Flitwick, McGonnagal, Sprout, etc) thought Snape to be a murderer. He couldn't tell them otherwise, because Dumbledore told him he could tell no one, and who would have believed him if he did? It was lucky, though, that Snape and the others were there, because they all helped (even Snape, unknowing to the rest) protect the students from the Death Eaters who were running rampant.




Jen525 wrote:

My big question is, did Snape actually develop feelings for Harry, the question Dumbledore asked him?

Wonder what school was like this year in Harry's absence, I mean with Snape being headmaster and McGonagall and others knowing he was the one who killed Dumbledore.







"Imagine losing fingernails, Harry! That really puts our sufferings into perspective, doesn't it?" (Hermione, p383)
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Rainydaysunshine
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33

After I read this chapter I found that Snape is the most controversal and complex character out of the whole book! I really despised him at first, until I read the section about his love for Harry's mother. After reading his feelings toward Lily, I believe that Snape had every intention of taking Harry under his wing and becomming his mentor, until he saw how very very similar Harry looked and acted like his father, James. Snape let his broken heart and jealousy towards James reflect his relationship with Harry. I think he represents the constant battle between good and evil that takes within every persons soul. I like the fact that the good in Snape won out in the end.
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hibachi
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Did Snape Really Care For Harry?

[ Edited ]
I loved this chapter to death because it's a great example of "don't judge a book by its cover". I have to admit that I had a tad bit of a feeling that Snape might have loved Harry's mother but I just thought it was one of those out of this world thoughts so I dismissed it as it came. This chapter clarified so many questions I had except for this one: Did Snape really care for Harry?

I understand that Snape loved Lily and everythiing and that he helped to save Harry many times but there is still this one scene that has been nagging me ever since I read this chapter. The scene where Dumbledore ask's Snape if he cared about Harry after all that time and Snape does his patronus which is the Doe. But its his reply that I don't get. Snape says "For him?" and I don't know if he meant that in a good way or bad way so can someone just clarify that for me...or maybe I'm just reading into this way too much?

Message Edited by hibachi on 08-09-2007 07:51 PM
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dcsbelle
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Re: Did Snape Really Care For Harry?

hibachi, Snape was clarifying where his devotion lay. When DD saw the doe Patronus he knew Snape did it all for Lily's sake ("Still...after all these years?") and not out of concern for Harry.

hibachi wrote:
I loved this chapter to death because it's a great example of "don't judge a book by its cover". I have to admit that I had a tad bit of a feeling that Snape might have loved Harry's mother but I just thought it was one of those out of this world thoughts so I dismissed it as it came. This chapter clarified so many questions I had except for this one: Did Snape really care for Harry?

I understand that Snape loved Lily and everythiing and that he helped to save Harry many times but there is still this one scene that has been nagging me ever since I read this chapter. The scene where Dumbledore ask's Snape if he cared about Harry after all that time and Snape does his patronus which is the Doe. But its his reply that I don't get. Snape says "For him?" and I don't know if he meant that in a good way or bad way so can someone just clarify that for me...or maybe I'm just reading into this way too much?

Message Edited by hibachi on 08-09-2007 07:51 PM


Debbie

Hedwig is not really dead; it was all just a big misunderstanding
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Jen525
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Re: Did Snape Really Care For Harry?

Did you check out the post from 8/7/07 from HarryIsMyHomeboy? That was my question too and they shed some interesting light on the subject.





hibachi wrote:
This chapter clarified so many questions I had except for this one: Did Snape really care for Harry?

I understand that Snape loved Lily and everythiing and that he helped to save Harry many times but there is still this one scene that has been nagging me ever since I read this chapter. The scene where Dumbledore ask's Snape if he cared about Harry after all that time and Snape does his patronus which is the Doe. But its his reply that I don't get. Snape says "For him?" and I don't know if he meant that in a good way or bad way so can someone just clarify that for me...or maybe I'm just reading into this way too much?

Message Edited by hibachi on 08-09-2007 07:51 PM


"Imagine losing fingernails, Harry! That really puts our sufferings into perspective, doesn't it?" (Hermione, p383)
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Lady_shay
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Re: Discuss Chapter 33



crw1204 wrote:
It is really strange finally to read a chapter that was everything I wanted to see of Snape and Lily's friendship. I knew that Snape was good because he loved Lily, and like Harry, he could never be like Voldemort because of love. BUT, Snape was almost made evil because of James and his friend's bullying. I think that there is no getting around the fact, that like of Sirius and the betrayal of Kreacher, bullies can cause events they cannot always control.

I wish that there had been moments over the years where Smape and Harry could have talked. Again, James's actions kept Harry from truly knowing someone who knew his mother really well, as well as Petunia.

I did not want Snape to die. It broke my heart.







James did not do anything. Remember when they were first on the train they both said things to insult the other. Later on James fell for lily. Snape was jealous of james' popularity. You can't ignore the fact that Lily was muggle-born. Snape joined a group that hated her. That is what kept them apart. Because even when she showed that her loyalty was to him he still was part of that crew. He chose his way she chose hers. He messed up that friendship and he alone is to blame. It is wrong to blame James. Remember when Lily insulted james and snape was happy. She told him then that she didn't like the people he was surrounding himself with. His response was to continue to hang around with them.
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