Discuss Chapter 36

[kpeterson32]

As much as I hate to be wrong, I must wholeheartedly admit that it was truly a perfect ending.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll be reading the epilogue now.

[keeperfan]

I love that Harry tell Voldy that he can't hurt anybody anymore because he died for them. He's truly his mother's son.

[kpeterson32]

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keeperfan wrote:
I love that Harry tell Voldy that he can't hurt anybody anymore because he died for them. He's truly his mother's son.

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I agree. That was beautiful.

[dayrenm]

I love Mrs. Weasley. Awesome! I love how she came to Ginny's rescue, although for a moment there I though she was going to die.

[dayrenm]

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teriandcb wrote:
I'm wondering how the Griffendor sword got in the Sorting Hat when it had been with the goblins the last we heard of it?

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I think the same way Harry got in when he was fighting Tom for the first time.

[dayrenm]

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quidditchprincess2007 wrote:
I heart Neville!! I knew as soon as he took the Sorting Hat off what would come out of it. Like Dumbldore said in CoS only a true Gryffindor could pull the sword out of the hat. I was so happy that Neville had his moment to shine. I love Mrs. Weasly, I was hysterical during her showdown with Bellatix. Though I would rather Nevile had taken her out in revenge for his parents this was better.

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Yeah I agree I love Neville. He got his chance to shine. I felt the same way about Mrs. Weasley. My heart was beating faster than ever for her. Although in the end as much as I would have liked to see Neville get his revenge on that ____ !! I don't care who finished her off as long as she finally died, and couldn't do any more harm.

[dayrenm]

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dawnmgeoppinger wrote:
What I appreciated the most from this scene is that both Harry and Neville are the ones who finally bring Voldemort down. Neville is the one who destroys the remaining Horcrux, Nagini, and of course, Harry destroys Voldemort. I think why I appreciated this the most was that both Neville and Harry had an equal chance at being the "Chosen One", and in the end, both boys together are able to defeat Voldemort. My one hope was also fulfilled in the end, that Harry would not defeat Voldemort by using the Killing Curse, but somehow Voldemort would die by his own mistake.

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But ws it Harry that did the Avada Kadavra? I thought that since Expeliarmus has always been his signature, Harry was the one to cast it, it seems very unlikely that Voldy would say Expeliarmus, since his signature has always been Avada Kadavra. That was confusing to be so what exactly happens who says what??

[dayrenm]

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_becauseisaidso wrote:
i love the part when mrs. malfoy sees if harry is alive and instead is too concerned about her son to care and the fact that harry, ron, and hermine live astonds me!!! i thought for sure one of them would die. i love also how much hagrid and everyone else cares so much about harry and neville being brave and following though for harry even though he was "dead". and when it talks about how everyone is crying+yelling his name really proves how much they care

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Yeah that too was confusing, when Narcissa goes to check if Harry is dead, she says he is even after she knows he isn't. SHe asks about Draco, instead. Maybe I missed something I was reading pretty fast to see what happens.

[dayrenm]

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FurmanGordhan89 wrote:
I loved how Harry matured so much that he became a seventeen-year-old Albus Dumbledore, by addressing the Dark Lord as "Tom," and I love the fact that he learned that Snape was a good guy, and not really bad, though he seemed to be evil.

And here I admit I was wrong: For all of you that knew how much I thought Snape was evil and bad and all that, I was wrong, and when I learned the truth about him, I was touched.

This series was arguably the greatest series (and this book, the greatest book) of all freakin' time!!!

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Couldn't have said it better myself mate!! Long live the series.

[Psychee]

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dayrenm wrote:
But ws it Harry that did the Avada Kadavra? I thought that since Expeliarmus has always been his signature, Harry was the one to cast it, it seems very unlikely that Voldy would say Expeliarmus, since his signature has always been Avada Kadavra. That was confusing to be so what exactly happens who says what??

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Harry said Expelliarmus. Voldemort said Avada Kedavra. The Elder wand in Voldemort's hand refused to kill its real Master (Harry), and Harry was now there calling on it to come home to him, so it turned the killing curse on Voldemort mid-air as it was coming to Harry (from the Expelliarmus order).

Pretty cool twist...

[bmbrennan]

If you go back to the first book and Harry's first wand, Ollivander stated , "THE WAND CHOOSES THE WIZARD", if you recall, he had tried to give Harry wands that were similar to Lily's and James on Harry's first visit to the shop and the wand for Harry was the twin of Voldemor's. Why would the "Elder Wand" not also possess the properties of choosing its wizrd. Also would you be able to maintain possession if indeed your true purpose was false? Harry was able to retrieve the 'Sorceror's Stone' because he had a true heart, he was able to pull the sword from the hat again because he was a true Gryffndor, again that mixture of bravery and loyalty.


I do have a question about the Elder wand. I don't really remember what chapter in the book talks about this, but I really would appreciate some feedback on this one -

The Elder Wand, the Deathly stick, etc etc, is supposed to be unbeatable. So then how did Dumbledore beat Grindelwald, and become the new master of the Elder wand?

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Part of the answer is that Dumbledore never gave up being master of the wand since he planned his final demise with Snape so that Malfoy would not be the one to do it. So Dumbledore was still the master of the wand and not Snape as Voldemort assumed wrongly. I believe that then the transfer of power would be to whomever Dumbledore wanted it to go to or to someone who overcame Dumbledore and was able to kill him without him/his asking for it to be done. Snape did Dumbledore a favor. As you recall, Dumbledore was going to die anyways because of the ring and Snape at the very least gave him another year I believe and also was the one to put him out of his delirious misery when the time was right (as requested by Dumbledore himself).

Hope the above helps.

[Psychee]

Just to clarify about this wand business...

Dumbledore's initial plan was to neutralize the power of the wand by dying undefeated. He planned his death in such a way that when Snape killed him, Snape was not defeating him, he was merely giving a gift. Dumbledore knew that Voldemort would go after the wand after Dumbledore's death, and had the plan worked out, Voldemort would have only gotten a useless stick (or at best a non-powerful wand).

What went wrong was this: Draco got to Dumbledore before Snape did. When Draco did his Expelliarmus thing, and the wand flew out of Dumbledore's hand, Draco won Mastery of the Wand. Draco did not know this, of course. So, when Dumbledore was killed, he did not leave behind a useless stick wand, but a wand that still had power with a secret Master (Draco).

Voldemort retrieved the wand, and eventually concluded that the reason it wasn't working for him was because he wasn't its master. He then figured that Snape must be its master since Snape had killed Dumbledore. So he killed Snape, thinking that this would then make him the Master of the wand. He thought wrong.

Draco was the Master of the wand, not Snape, and during the story, at the Malfoy Mansion, Harry won Draco's wand. That was considered a defeat of the Master of the Elder Wand, so it sufficed to transfer the Master role of that wand to Harry.

In the final duel, Voldemort was using the Elder Wand against the Elder Wand's Master. The Elder Wand would not hurt its Master and instead, mid air, on its way to Harry, turned the AK curse on Voldemort himself.

Or, at least, that's my interpretation of the text!

[nutmeg713]

remember in chapter 2 where harry was reading the article about rita's new book... there was a part in there that rita said "i'm afraid those who go dewy-eyed over dumbledore's spectacular victory must brace themselves for a bombshell-- or perhaps a dungbomb. very dirty business indeed. all i'll say is, don't be so sure that there really was the spectacular duel of legend. after they've read my book, people may be forced to conclude that grindelwald simply conjured a white handkerchief from the end of his wand and came quietly."

so maybe they didn't duel at all. that was the first time they had seen eachother since that night that ariana died wasn't it? dumbledore could have gotten him to just hand over his wand. if that was the case then i would think it could be considered more "spectacular" than actually dueling.

i know that it was written by rita. but she seemed to get a lot of things right in that biography... so maybe this is another example of that.

[coreen222]

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Psychee wrote:
Just to clarify about this wand business...

Dumbledore's initial plan was to neutralize the power of the wand by dying undefeated. He planned his death in such a way that when Snape killed him, Snape was not defeating him, he was merely giving a gift. Dumbledore knew that Voldemort would go after the wand after Dumbledore's death, and had the plan worked out, Voldemort would have only gotten a useless stick (or at best a non-powerful wand).

What went wrong was this: Draco got to Dumbledore before Snape did. When Draco did his Expelliarmus thing, and the wand flew out of Dumbledore's hand, Draco won Mastery of the Wand. Draco did not know this, of course. So, when Dumbledore was killed, he did not leave behind a useless stick wand, but a wand that still had power with a secret Master (Draco).

Voldemort retrieved the wand, and eventually concluded that the reason it wasn't working for him was because he wasn't its master. He then figured that Snape must be its master since Snape had killed Dumbledore. So he killed Snape, thinking that this would then make him the Master of the wand. He thought wrong.

Draco was the Master of the wand, not Snape, and during the story, at the Malfoy Mansion, Harry won Draco's wand. That was considered a defeat of the Master of the Elder Wand, so it sufficed to transfer the Master role of that wand to Harry.

In the final duel, Voldemort was using the Elder Wand against the Elder Wand's Master. The Elder Wand would not hurt its Master and instead, mid air, on its way to Harry, turned the AK curse on Voldemort himself.

Or, at least, that's my interpretation of the text!

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This is what I understood from the text as well.

As for the dual between D and G, I think that just the wand being powerful does not make the master undefeatable (look at how many have been defeated). I think that the wizard has to have the skill to use the wand to its fullest potential. I think that if you catch a wizard off guard, the power of your wand hardly matters.

[coreen222]

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nutmeg713 wrote:
remember in chapter 2 where harry was reading the article about rita's new book... there was a part in there that rita said "i'm afraid those who go dewy-eyed over dumbledore's spectacular victory must brace themselves for a bombshell-- or perhaps a dungbomb. very dirty business indeed. all i'll say is, don't be so sure that there really was the spectacular duel of legend. after they've read my book, people may be forced to conclude that grindelwald simply conjured a white handkerchief from the end of his wand and came quietly."

so maybe they didn't duel at all. that was the first time they had seen eachother since that night that ariana died wasn't it? dumbledore could have gotten him to just hand over his wand. if that was the case then i would think it could be considered more "spectacular" than actually dueling.

i know that it was written by rita. but she seemed to get a lot of things right in that biography... so maybe this is another example of that.

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This makes sense, also.

[iDigHermione]

Uhm, alright, I read through this chapter very fast as I was very anxious to find out where Harry's fate would land him. So, now i'm pretty freaking confused. Where the hell where they? I understand that LV shot a killing curse at Harry and killed the part of his own soul that lived inside Harry. I understand how that part of LV's soul got inside Harry... but... why didn't Harry's actual soul die? Why couldn't LV only kill his own little piece of soul? WHy did the Elder wand rightfully belong to Harry? So, Harry is a Horcrux, but having Harry as another Horcrux would make more then 7 Horcruxes. I mean, the ring, the diary, the locket, the cup, the diadem, Nagini, and, I thought the 7th part of LV's soul was inside himself. But, it wasn't? It was in Harry. So, LV stayed alive without a soul in his body but off the use of Harry's blood? Which came from the scar on his forehead? And... what was so special about Harry letting LV "kill" him in the forest peacefully, without fighting back.

I think I got myself a little in line by typing it all out... but, I need to go re-read those chapters. I got lost in my question of Harry's survival.

[Psychee]

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coreen222 wrote:
.

As for the dual between D and G, I think that just the wand being powerful does not make the master undefeatable (look at how many have been defeated). I think that the wizard has to have the skill to use the wand to its fullest potential. I think that if you catch a wizard off guard, the power of your wand hardly matters.

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I like the way you stated that, Coreen222. And the best example would be of Draco and his Expelliarmus on Dumbledore. Draco defeated the owner of the Elder Wand while that wand was still in his hands, doing something else (freezing Harry).

[bentley]

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Psychee wrote:
OK, Bently, you seem to have your mind made up, and I have no need to change your mind...

All I can say is that there is absolutely no reference in any of the seven books to a duel between Dumbledore and the wandmaker Gregorovitch. All we know about Gregorovitch is that he made Victor Krum's wand, that he was a well respected wand maker, and that Grindelwald stole the wand from him.

The only reference we have about duels that Dumbledore had in that part of the world were with Grindelwald. The Chocolate Frog cards say that he defeated him and Dumbledore says that he dueled him and won the wand from him.

The reason the wand did not work for Voldemort isn't because he stole the wand from Dumbledore's tomb. It's because by the time the wand was IN the tomb, Draco had become its master. Later, Harry had defeated Draco, getting Draco's wand, transferring the Master role of the Elder wand to Harry as well.

But enough said... I have submitted the question to JKR for her chat on July 30. You might wish to submit the question yourself!

Go here:

http://livechat.bloomsbury.com/index.php

Good talking to you!

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Psychee..I simply answered another reader's question with all of the possibilities that have been discussed in the book(s) and other web sites with the available information that is out there. This was undisputed as still an open and unverified item on some of these sites and I passed on the information to that reader. You stated another opinion which of course is great..another point of discussion which is always fun.

I can see that you disagree and I respect that you have another opinion. But I agree with the other sites that this is still cloudy and that sufficient evidence is not in the books.

Second, I also agree that we do know that Gregorovitch was a well respected wand maker and we know that Grinderwald stole the wand just like Voldermort stole it from Dumbledore's grave. I can see that you still feel that Malfoy was the master of the wand and not Snape or Voldemort and that when Harry got Draco's wand that this is when he because the master of the Elderwand as well.
Third, I think the point that needs explaining is why Dumbledore was able to beat Grinderwald (since Grinderwald also stole the wand, maybe G wasn't the master either and that is why he was beaten?).
Psychee..since this is a book of fiction we can go only on the facts presented by the author and the master lineage of the Elderwand and why it worked with some occupiers or possessors and not others is another thing still cloudy. Maybe the author would be kind enough to point out book, page, line where this is explained because it is very unclear. Possibly you might also want to add this to the unanswered or open-ended discussions that are still out there. Since I was trying to pass along info that I had received to the reader, your submission of the question should suffice as long as it deals with the entire lineage so that we can understand Grinderwald's defeat and so on. It would be great for JKR to point out where the backup details are in the 7 books. Folks who spend a lot of time studying the HP books still feel that this is not nailed down.

Thank you for your perseverance. It is great to see that you are trying to get a definitive response.

Regards,

Bentley

[bentley]

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keeperfan wrote:
I love that Harry tell Voldy that he can't hurt anybody anymore because he died for them. He's truly his mother's son.

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Agree that was very nice.

[bentley]

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nutmeg713 wrote:
remember in chapter 2 where harry was reading the article about rita's new book... there was a part in there that rita said "i'm afraid those who go dewy-eyed over dumbledore's spectacular victory must brace themselves for a bombshell-- or perhaps a dungbomb. very dirty business indeed. all i'll say is, don't be so sure that there really was the spectacular duel of legend. after they've read my book, people may be forced to conclude that grindelwald simply conjured a white handkerchief from the end of his wand and came quietly."

so maybe they didn't duel at all. that was the first time they had seen eachother since that night that ariana died wasn't it? dumbledore could have gotten him to just hand over his wand. if that was the case then i would think it could be considered more "spectacular" than actually dueling.

i know that it was written by rita. but she seemed to get a lot of things right in that biography... so maybe this is another example of that.

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That is also a very interesting possibility that I had never seen mentioned anywhere.

Message Edited by bentley on 07-26-2007 08:33 PM