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Laurel
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

Well put, Vivian! That's what I believe, too.

vivico1 wrote:

Exactly! Because all religions started from one religion, one God. All truth came from that one God. Then, because men do have free agency, if they didn't like the laws of God, or just some of them, and wanted something that fit their lifestyle rather than changing to meet God's, they started adding things to make up their own religions, or subtract other things to make another. What was once one, became many. All three of the main religions in the world, have there roots in the Old Testament, Christianity, Judaism and Muslim. It is why that one little area of the world is so important to all three. Then you have all these thousands and thousands of other religions or types of one of the three spring up because that didn't suit all either and they wanted it to suit them. That is the same reason today that if a law does not suit one group of people or another, people say, come on, its the 21st century, we are better than that, we should be more open minded than that. Like God didn't know when he gave the laws, that we would be here today??? Or that we should have something different because we want to be more worldly? He knows us all, every person who will hit this earth, and He knows our needs, and they do not change, nor do his laws. We just try to change them. But they all come from one, and the golden rule came from that, just saying the same thing in a way that is more palitable to those who do not want to realise or be connected to the religious or spiritual nature of the saying. With so many changes from what was the truth, to variations of the truth, its no wonder some people don't believe any of it. But also some just don't want anyone or anything, including a God, telling them what they can do! It doesn't really matter tho, in the end it will all be set right and as the scriptures say...every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus is the Christ.

 

If any of God's laws seem exclusionary, or extreme or mean...it is because we are His children, and like any other children, we sometimes rail against our parents rules cause they just don't feel fair! With growth tho, we understand why our parents taught us what they did. It is the same with God's rules. And we grow by getting to knew them in the way he wants us to understand them, not what the neighborhood kid said, or what we come up with in a huff against them. But God is and always was a loving God, he is willing to give all things, teach all things....Ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened.

 

Religions did not grow out of fable, but fables grew out of changed religious canons. How can anyone doubt there is a God, when the entire human race, no matter where you go, feels inside and knows and worships some higher being in some way or the other? It is because we have the common experience that is spiritual that tells us there is more and we reach for that. You can not go into the deepest forest where the outside world has never touched and find any race of atheist. They will tell you of some god they worship and why. We all started as one family, one God and one day, we all will be again, but it will be by our own choice, the other choice is there for any wanting less. God does not want anyone to have less. He sent prophets and teachers and a Savior into the world to try to make sure we come home to him again, because he loves every single one of us, but He will force no man to heaven. We are children, trying to become ready for Heaven, as our own children try to become ready for the adult world. And often as humans children, we think we know better than both our Heavenly and earthly parent.

 


Choisya wrote:

Yes, and just another version of the Golden Rule which exists in many religions.

 

 

 


Peppermill wrote:

thewanderingjew wrote:

This is a simple truth to follow, no matter where you find it written.

Re: Leviticus 19:18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.‏


Simple, but not necessarily easy.


 


 

 


 

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TiggerBear
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...


vivico1 wrote:

Exactly! Because all religions started from one religion, one God. All truth came from that one God. Then, because men do have free agency, if they didn't like the laws of God, or just some of them, and wanted something that fit their lifestyle rather than changing to meet God's, they started adding things to make up their own religions, or subtract other things to make another. What was once one, became many. All three of the main religions in the world, have there roots in the Old Testament, Christianity, Judaism and Muslim. It is why that one little area of the world is so important to all three. Then you have all these thousands and thousands of other religions or types of one of the three spring up because that didn't suit all either and they wanted it to suit them. That is the same reason today that if a law does not suit one group of people or another, people say, come on, its the 21st century, we are better than that, we should be more open minded than that. Like God didn't know when he gave the laws, that we would be here today??? Or that we should have something different because we want to be more worldly? He knows us all, every person who will hit this earth, and He knows our needs, and they do not change, nor do his laws. We just try to change them. But they all come from one, and the golden rule came from that, just saying the same thing in a way that is more palitable to those who do not want to realise or be connected to the religious or spiritual nature of the saying. With so many changes from what was the truth, to variations of the truth, its no wonder some people don't believe any of it. But also some just don't want anyone or anything, including a God, telling them what they can do! It doesn't really matter tho, in the end it will all be set right and as the scriptures say...every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus is the Christ.

 

If any of God's laws seem exclusionary, or extreme or mean...it is because we are His children, and like any other children, we sometimes rail against our parents rules cause they just don't feel fair! With growth tho, we understand why our parents taught us what they did. It is the same with God's rules. And we grow by getting to knew them in the way he wants us to understand them, not what the neighborhood kid said, or what we come up with in a huff against them. But God is and always was a loving God, he is willing to give all things, teach all things....Ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened.

 

Religions did not grow out of fable, but fables grew out of changed religious canons. How can anyone doubt there is a God, when the entire human race, no matter where you go, feels inside and knows and worships some higher being in some way or the other? It is because we have the common experience that is spiritual that tells us there is more and we reach for that. You can not go into the deepest forest where the outside world has never touched and find any race of atheist. They will tell you of some god they worship and why. We all started as one family, one God and one day, we all will be again, but it will be by our own choice, the other choice is there for any wanting less. God does not want anyone to have less. He sent prophets and teachers and a Savior into the world to try to make sure we come home to him again, because he loves every single one of us, but He will force no man to heaven. We are children, trying to become ready for Heaven, as our own children try to become ready for the adult world. And often as humans children, we think we know better than both our Heavenly and earthly parent.

 




I don't think I've read anything more religiously insulting, in a very long time.

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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

 


TiggerBear wrote:
I don't think I've read anything more religiously insulting, in a very long time.

 

 

Interesting response...religiously insulting? interesting. But that's ok too. :smileywink:

Vivian
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...


vivico1 wrote:

 


TiggerBear wrote:
I don't think I've read anything more religiously insulting, in a very long time.

 

 

Interesting response...religiously insulting? interesting. But that's ok too. :smileywink:


Well I'm sure you post was heartfelt. Historically, anthropologically, and statistically inaccurate. J/C/M is only 2/3 of the current religious world population. Your post was a insult to those of us in the other third. And I said religious population, 25% of the world is non religious.

 

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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

Actually it is not historically inaccurate at all. And I did not say there were not other religions at all. I said this was the cradle of the three major religions. Also, they all did start with the old testament. The Christian religion does, the Jewish religion does, and the Muslims, the Islamic faith does too. They believe in the prophets of the old testament too, and that both Christianity and Judaism distorted the original faith. It is not that they think Mohammad created a new religion but restored it to that original religion based on the prophets of the old testament. Talk to someone of the Islamic faith sometime and see if this is not true. I went to school at the University of Oklahoma, and in the late 70s and early 80s, we had a large student population of the Islamic faith. It was interesting to learn of Mohammad, he was actually one who did believe in charity.

 

Anyway, as far as what I spoke here, all three are steeped in the Old Testament, so that is no insult to them at all, and I never said that was all of the religions, just the very first and the two major ones that came out of that first religion, then others came later. You mentioned current religions, I spoke of the first, and the major branches of that. Today, there are too many to count and I spoke to that too.

 

I never said, there was any percentage of the world who was or wasn't religious. Do I believe 1/4 of the world are atheists? Absolutely not. But there is a difference in belonging to a religious sect, and believing in God. Like I said, there is no place in the world you can go, where the people there do not believe in something higher than themselves, some god. There is a reason for that as I said. But there is no known race of people who as a group are atheist. That doesn't mean there isn't a large number of people who say they don't believe in God, there is, but it is a choice, it is not the divine that does dwell in all humans that recognizes that pull. So I really don't see that I insulted any religion, nor really any non believers, on them, I just stated my opinion, that with all the truth present in the world to show it, how can anyone not believe there is a God, except by choice because it fits for them. So be it. We all believe in the religion we do out of our choices too, which ever religion that is. But truth is truth, even if it hurts sometimes.

 

 

As far as statistics, you have C/M/J counting as 2/3rds, saying you are of the other third of the worlds religions, but did not say what. Give it a shout out here at least if its roots are not one of these three. But then you say 25% are nonreligious. Well, lets see, 2/3 +1/3 + 1/4 doesn't quite seem to add up to the world population...statistically speaking that is. :smileywink:

 

 


TiggerBear wrote:

vivico1 wrote:

 


TiggerBear wrote:
I don't think I've read anything more religiously insulting, in a very long time.

 

 

Interesting response...religiously insulting? interesting. But that's ok too. :smileywink:


Well I'm sure you post was heartfelt. Historically, anthropologically, and statistically inaccurate. J/C/M is only 2/3 of the current religious world population. Your post was a insult to those of us in the other third. And I said religious population, 25% of the world is non religious.

 


 

 

Vivian
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

[ Edited ]

vivico1 wrote:

Actually it is not historically inaccurate at all. And I did not say there were not other religions at all. I said this was the cradle of the three major religions.

 


Well I think the problem TiggerBear is having may be references like this ("the three major religions" ). For instance, there are many religions much bigger than Judaism. Among them: Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucian/traditional Chinese ancestor worship. These are not merely bigger than Judaism, but significantly bigger, which makes your inclusion of Judaism as a major religion and these others as not perhaps a little insulting to people of a non-Abrahamic religions, even though I'm sure you did not intend it to be.

Message Edited by Joseph_F on 07-13-2009 12:12 PM
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

 


Joseph_F wrote:

vivico1 wrote:

Actually it is not historically inaccurate at all. And I did not say there were not other religions at all. I said this was the cradle of the three major religions.

 


Well I think the problem TiggerBear is having may be references like this ("the three major religions" ). For instance, there are many religions much bigger than Judaism. Among them: Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucian/traditional Chinese ancestor worship. These are not merely bigger than Judaism, but significantly bigger, which makes your inclusion of Judaism as a major religion and these others as not perhaps a little insulting to people of a non-Abrahamic religions, even though I'm sure you did not intend it to be.

Message Edited by Joseph_F on 07-13-2009 12:12 PM

 

 

 

That may be it. When I say the three major religions, what I am refering to, is what I said in other parts, the first religion and then the two major ones that branch out from the same beginnings, the Old Testament. It is like doing the geneology of man, all other people today can be traced back to the first. So it is with religions of the world, all other ones, tiny or very Major today, can be traced back to some connection to one of these three. Because they all trace back to the one. I do not mean to say, no other religion is a "Major" religion today and if that it how it sounded in that sense. I do apologize. I am as I said, speaking of the geneology of religion, tracing back to the original one, as we trace back to the original man in human geneology. And then some of what I said, is of course as I said, my beliefs as to what we see today. But to the original idea, of the golden rule, I was mostly speaking as to why that sounds the same as the religious tenants of the same. It is because it has its roots in religion also.

Vivian
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

 The problem also is that you two are unlikely to see eye to eye since, for instance, your assertion that Judaism is the first religion is based on a religious belief that TiggerBear is unlikely to share. Archeological data, for instance, suggests that the oldest major religion is actually Hinduism, with the worship of Vishnu and Shiva going back at least 3000 years. That's not even counting religions that no longer are practiced, such as the Babylonian religion.

 

Since you two are drawing from such different sources for your facts, the differences are probably irreconcilable. 


vivico1 wrote:

 


Joseph_F wrote:

vivico1 wrote:

Actually it is not historically inaccurate at all. And I did not say there were not other religions at all. I said this was the cradle of the three major religions.

 


Well I think the problem TiggerBear is having may be references like this ("the three major religions" ). For instance, there are many religions much bigger than Judaism. Among them: Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucian/traditional Chinese ancestor worship. These are not merely bigger than Judaism, but significantly bigger, which makes your inclusion of Judaism as a major religion and these others as not perhaps a little insulting to people of a non-Abrahamic religions, even though I'm sure you did not intend it to be.

Message Edited by Joseph_F on 07-13-2009 12:12 PM

 

 

 

That may be it. When I say the three major religions, what I am refering to, is what I said in other parts, the first religion and then the two major ones that branch out from the same beginnings, the Old Testament. It is like doing the geneology of man, all other people today can be traced back to the first. So it is with religions of the world, all other ones, tiny or very Major today, can be traced back to some connection to one of these three. Because they all trace back to the one. I do not mean to say, no other religion is a "Major" religion today and if that it how it sounded in that sense. I do apologize. I am as I said, speaking of the geneology of religion, tracing back to the original one, as we trace back to the original man in human geneology. And then some of what I said, is of course as I said, my beliefs as to what we see today. But to the original idea, of the golden rule, I was mostly speaking as to why that sounds the same as the religious tenants of the same. It is because it has its roots in religion also.


 

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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

Probably so,that our differences are irreconcilable, and its not Judaism I am saying is the first but actually, Christianity. And there will be many who do not believe as I do, I am following the geneology of the old testament. And if you go back to the first man there,time goes back easily 3000 years, more really. I know that it is hard to compare archeological ideas of who, what, where and when, to Biblical and many find archeology more compelling or "factual". Actually, as you suggest here about archeologist suggesting Hinduism is the oldest, well there lies a rub too. Not all archeologist agree on the first religions either, it depends on what is being used as a measuring stick, so there is no definitive in archeology either.

This is really where the different timelines will come in. I have a Wicca friend who believes pagan religions were here long before Christianity. But again, its comparisions, because if any religion believes in Adam and Eve, I am talking from religions now, not archeology, if any believe in Adam and Eve, and believe they are the first, then Christianity came first or even Judao-Christian, then Islamic who are came as the generations of the first born of Abraham, rather than Isaac, since it was customary to pass the priesthood and all patriarchial rights to the first born first, but this did not happen then, or at a couple of other times actually. The thing is, I have no problem combining science and theology, the timeline of creation, i.e. the order of things created are the same really if you look at it. It is just the timing of these events that are different and since we do not know how long those first days were mentioned in the bible, how do we know they are so different? I personally have no problem with the big bang theory, I just know who was behind it! People often don't think God would create or do things in a way that would make scientific sense, that his would be like POOF and there is the earth, or POOF and there is Adam. Who says he did not create the earth by using the forces necessary for the big bang to happen?

 

I am sure she and I and many others will not "agree" on many things, it is in the nature of talking politics and religion. But again, back to my original post, about the golden rule, and also the idea that many religions today come out of everyone trying to make a religion that fits them instead of changing their hearts and desires to fit into the one God sat up on earth (regardless of what everyone thinks is the first), I stand by that. If within religion, not archeology, there is one God, whatever name he goes by, then there is one God and one way, He is not a God of confusion and wouldn't change His own word or give rules to man that would be outdated when he is timeless. We do not have one God, one way today and this is not his plan, it is ours from our desires. Good grief we have changed it so many times to suit some group or desire that look at the wars that come out of them now. All of us! And I stand by my statement that a god, God, exists and all cultures have sought him in some way, because within us is that divine spark to know him. Of course not, all individuals, we do have free agency, but as the human race with one creator we do. I sometimes think too, that if we could all realise that, that we are really all one family with one Father, maybe we could stop treating each other, and other nations as we do. But it will never happen, in this life at least.

 

Anyway, I am fine at leaving it as..we agree to disagree. Religion and God, to me are not something to argue about, because then there can be no meeting of the minds and it is not how Heavenly Father would want us to discuss it anyway, by arguments. We can put forth ideas and agree or disagree or when really interested, then ask each other our beliefs to learn, not to tear down and that is often hard to do without coming off as confrontational. It is why I also have the utmost respect for missionaries of any religion. They have to have faith, belief and a strong desire to share what they believe inside to go out and talk to people who may slam doors in their faces, call them names, or try to hurt them, and yet most I know from most religions, will still do this without becoming hateful in return. It is not an easy thing any of them do, but I know they do it because of a belief they should share what they feel their God has given them to share with one another. Missionary life (by whatever term it is called in various religions) is not for wuzzes LOL, so I have to respect that in any religion.

 


Joseph_F wrote:

The problem also is that you two are unlikely to see eye to eye since, for instance, your assertion that Judaism is the first religion is based on a religious belief that TiggerBear is unlikely to share. Archeological data, for instance, suggests that the oldest major religion is actually Hinduism, with the worship of Vishnu and Shiva going back at least 3000 years. That's not even counting religions that no longer are practiced, such as the Babylonian religion.

 

Since you two are drawing from such different sources for your facts, the differences are probably irreconcilable.


 

 

Vivian
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dulcinea3
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ.  Therefore, it could not have existed before Jesus was born and lived.  The Old Testament is obviously from before that time.
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

Yes the Old Testament is before Christ's time on earth, but it is very very much a part of Christianity because the entire book, is full of similitudes of Christ, prophecies of Christ and teachings of the Christ to come. And the God of the Old Testament is the Christ of the New Testament. He even says in the New Testament, I am the great "I am". This is the name he said when Moses asked Him what he should tell people when they ask the name of this God. Jesus and God existed always and the Old Testament speaks of them everywhere. This is where Christianity started and why Christians use both the Old and The New Testament as scripture. Yes some put more emphasis on the New, but the old is rich in talking of the Christ to come.

 


dulcinea3 wrote:
Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ. Therefore, it could not have existed before Jesus was born and lived. The Old Testament is obviously from before that time.

 

 

Vivian
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

I was wondering, as a Jew, I am not upset at all by those who think the Old Testament foretold the coming of Christ. I respect their right to their opinion, beliefs and love of their G-d.

However, I am wondering if those that are not Jewish, are upset that Jews do not believe that Christ is their Messiah because they are still waiting for Him to arrive. Have we gotten far enough along as a a civilization, that we can tolerate such opposing views or is it only the rare few that are open to this discussion?

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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

TWJ, I am just now coming to know you, and I would hate to think of not talking to you or missing a chance of our maybe becoming great friends because I am a Christian and you are Jewish. How sad would that be. We both have as you say, very different ideas about is Christ our Savior, or is he still to come. With strong believes, that we may never agree on but we have things in common, even in our religions to build on and not only have tolerance of a more "progressive" society, but also tolerance within us that comes from our religions. We have some common religious ideas that one on one, would be a place for open, honest and caring discussion. That, I feel, just will never really work well in a group setting, its a totally different thing and sometimes people gang up on each other, regardless of what religion any of us are. One thing you and I both know, and most other religions, who believe in a God, no matter his name, is that one day, some time to come, One God will come. Just speaking as to you and I, our two, yes, I believe he already has and will again. You believe he will come because he has not yet. Now should we sit and say, well you got it so wrong there is no hope for you to each other? Without tolerance, I don't think God would want either of us in His kingdom. But one day, that kingdom will come, that we can agree on. And it will only be one way one God, and it won't matter what religion we are, we will either follow Him then or we will not.

 

i do believe in my religion and yes I do believe it is the truth, but heavens! I have so many friends from different religions, the idea of not having tolerance or caring for them is unthinkable to me. Will I fight for my right to believe what I believe? YES. Will I fight for everyone's right to believe what they believe? I am going to be completely honest here ok? I would hope that I would fight for their RIGHT to believe what they want to, our nation is founded on that principle. But what if it came down to fighting for my beliefs vs yours (I pray this never happens for any of us but before my Christ comes or yours, or someone else's God, it could all come down to that. We get closer every day to that in the world.) I would have to say, I would lay down my life for my beliefs, or I would hope I would. Now understand, I am not talking about...lets go get them because they are wrong! As we see some extremist in the world doing today. I am saying if someone told me, deny your religion or die, I hope I have the strength to die for it. It is easy to say we would, but in reality, do we really know? So I hope I do. Or if some religion said, you must become one of us, or someone said, you must give up the idea of a God all together or die, or tried to force theirs on me, I hope again, i would fight for it. We have had enough religious wars in the world or wars in the name of religion which were nothing more than one man or nation using religion to futher their own agenda.

 

What I do believe is, that one day, all will get a chance to hear the truth, all the truth, not just what I have or someone else has, but all of it and have an opportunity to chose, then it is up to us. And then is when we may all become one family, finally. It is not going to happen before that. But are you my family, you betcha, because all earth is. Are you someone I am thinking I would like to call a friend, yep! :smileyhappy: I am loving getting to know you and our beliefs, hey we can share them and even if we never agree, we can come to know each other more and more about each other's religion, than hearing about it from some third person who was never mine or yours but thinks they know what we are. I believe this of the many different sects of Christianity. I do not want to know what a Baptist is from someone who is not a practicing Baptist. I don't need to hear about it from a historian or from someone who left that church. If I know someone who is a Baptist, I want them to tell me about their religion, because they live it.

 

I hope this all makes sense and I don't think in these group forums you can find the kind of tolerance of other religions, or none, that you can one on one with a friend. Does that make sense?

 


thewanderingjew wrote:

I was wondering, as a Jew, I am not upset at all by those who think the Old Testament foretold the coming of Christ. I respect their right to their opinion, beliefs and love of their G-d.

However, I am wondering if those that are not Jewish, are upset that Jews do not believe that Christ is their Messiah because they are still waiting for Him to arrive. Have we gotten far enough along as a a civilization, that we can tolerate such opposing views or is it only the rare few that are open to this discussion?


 

 

Vivian
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Choisya
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

I agree TB - a very intolerant viewpoint and as you say historically and anthropologically inaccurate.   Evidence of the existence of the Golden Rule, for instance, predates the Bible by some 2000 years in the cuneiform tablets found relating the Epic of Gilgamesh.  Faith and belief are one thing, historical evidence is another. 

 

 

 


TiggerBear wrote:

vivico1 wrote:

 


TiggerBear wrote:
I don't think I've read anything more religiously insulting, in a very long time.

 

 

Interesting response...religiously insulting? interesting. But that's ok too. :smileywink:


Well I'm sure you post was heartfelt. Historically, anthropologically, and statistically inaccurate. J/C/M is only 2/3 of the current religious world population. Your post was a insult to those of us in the other third. And I said religious population, 25% of the world is non religious.

 


 

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Choisya
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Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

And this is the Golden Rule in Hinduism - from the Bhagavad Gita : Upanishads. Mahabharata 5:1517. 

 

 


Joseph_F wrote:

 The problem also is that you two are unlikely to see eye to eye since, for instance, your assertion that Judaism is the first religion is based on a religious belief that TiggerBear is unlikely to share. Archeological data, for instance, suggests that the oldest major religion is actually Hinduism, with the worship of Vishnu and Shiva going back at least 3000 years. That's not even counting religions that no longer are practiced, such as the Babylonian religion.

 

Since you two are drawing from such different sources for your facts, the differences are probably irreconcilable. 


vivico1 wrote:

 


Joseph_F wrote:

vivico1 wrote:

Actually it is not historically inaccurate at all. And I did not say there were not other religions at all. I said this was the cradle of the three major religions.

 


Well I think the problem TiggerBear is having may be references like this ("the three major religions" ). For instance, there are many religions much bigger than Judaism. Among them: Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucian/traditional Chinese ancestor worship. These are not merely bigger than Judaism, but significantly bigger, which makes your inclusion of Judaism as a major religion and these others as not perhaps a little insulting to people of a non-Abrahamic religions, even though I'm sure you did not intend it to be.

Message Edited by Joseph_F on 07-13-2009 12:12 PM

 

 

 

That may be it. When I say the three major religions, what I am refering to, is what I said in other parts, the first religion and then the two major ones that branch out from the same beginnings, the Old Testament. It is like doing the geneology of man, all other people today can be traced back to the first. So it is with religions of the world, all other ones, tiny or very Major today, can be traced back to some connection to one of these three. Because they all trace back to the one. I do not mean to say, no other religion is a "Major" religion today and if that it how it sounded in that sense. I do apologize. I am as I said, speaking of the geneology of religion, tracing back to the original one, as we trace back to the original man in human geneology. And then some of what I said, is of course as I said, my beliefs as to what we see today. But to the original idea, of the golden rule, I was mostly speaking as to why that sounds the same as the religious tenants of the same. It is because it has its roots in religion also.


 


 

Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006

Re: I'm a Christian, dating an Atheist...

I said this was the cradle of the three major religions. Also, they all did start with the old testament.

 

The better term is the three monotheistic religions.  I take it from what you have written that you do not acknowledge any of the pre-Torah/Bible/Quaranic history outlined by Karen Armstrong in The History of God, whether or not some of the tablets and texts found relating to earlier religions are carbon dated etc?   Historically and anthropologically the Torah of the Jews predates later parts of the Old Testament of the Christians and the Quaran of the Muslims draws upon both.  They all appear to draw upon much earlier texts such as the Hindu Upanishads and the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, especially in the accounts of the Flood.  If Yahweh/God is supposed somehow to be responsible for all of these other quite well documented religions, it makes a nonsense of historical teachings throughout the world. But of course if your religious beliefs take precedent over history and anthropology, none of the dates/timelines are 'true' and as Joseph says, there is no basis for any agreement.    

 

It is not that they think Mohammad created a new religion but restored it to that original religion based on the prophets of the old testament.

 

Muslims, like Jews and Christians, believe that their religion is the only true faith, which was 'recited' (= Qu'ran) to Mohammed by God through the Archangel Gabriel.  They believe that God revealed the Torah to Moses and the Gospels to Jesus but that the words were subsequently corrupted and/or lost so God had to sort of start again with the Qu'ran.  They acknowledge some of the Jewish prophets and Jesus Christ but only believe in the words of the Qu'ran and subsequent Hadiths (sayings of Mohammed). If you have read either the Torah or the Bible you will easily recognise the parts of the Qu'ran which use the same stories/instructions. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet (not the son of God) and that Mohammed was the last prophet.  His instructions about giving a percentage of income to charity are very similar to those in the Torah.  (Most of the worlds' religions have instructions about giving charity to the poor.) 

 

But truth is truth....

 

Ah, but what is truth - therein lies the conundrum of the ages!  The above are my opinions and those of others but as to the 'truth' of them I make no claims - maybe ALL is myth. Do I exist at all or maybe, as Descartes wrote:  I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am (Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum).  Truth seems to be what you believe it to be.    

 

 

 

 

 

 


vivico1 wrote:

 

Actually it is not historically inaccurate at all. And I did not say there were not other religions at all. I said this was the cradle of the three major religions. Also, they all did start with the old testament. The Christian religion does, the Jewish religion does, and the Muslims, the Islamic faith does too. They believe in the prophets of the old testament too, and that both Christianity and Judaism distorted the original faith. It is not that they think Mohammad created a new religion but restored it to that original religion based on the prophets of the old testament. Talk to someone of the Islamic faith sometime and see if this is not true. I went to school at the University of Oklahoma, and in the late 70s and early 80s, we had a large student population of the Islamic faith. It was interesting to learn of Mohammad, he was actually one who did believe in charity.

 

Anyway, as far as what I spoke here, all three are steeped in the Old Testament, so that is no insult to them at all, and I never said that was all of the religions, just the very first and the two major ones that came out of that first religion, then others came later. You mentioned current religions, I spoke of the first, and the major branches of that. Today, there are too many to count and I spoke to that too.

 

I never said, there was any percentage of the world who was or wasn't religious. Do I believe 1/4 of the world are atheists? Absolutely not. But there is a difference in belonging to a religious sect, and believing in God. Like I said, there is no place in the world you can go, where the people there do not believe in something higher than themselves, some god. There is a reason for that as I said. But there is no known race of people who as a group are atheist. That doesn't mean there isn't a large number of people who say they don't believe in God, there is, but it is a choice, it is not the divine that does dwell in all humans that recognizes that pull. So I really don't see that I insulted any religion, nor really any non believers, on them, I just stated my opinion, that with all the truth present in the world to show it, how can anyone not believe there is a God, except by choice because it fits for them. So be it. We all believe in the religion we do out of our choices too, which ever religion that is. But truth is truth, even if it hurts sometimes.

 

 

As far as statistics, you have C/M/J counting as 2/3rds, saying you are of the other third of the worlds religions, but did not say what. Give it a shout out here at least if its roots are not one of these three. But then you say 25% are nonreligious. Well, lets see, 2/3 +1/3 + 1/4 doesn't quite seem to add up to the world population...statistically speaking that is. :smileywink:

 

 

Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006

Re:

[ Edited ]

But also some just don't want anyone or anything, including a God, telling them what they can do!

 

Since atheists do not acknowledge that there is a god in the first place, the idea of such a non-person telling them what to do does not even enter their heads!

 

You can not go into the deepest forest where the outside world has never touched and find any race of atheist. They will tell you of some god they worship and why.

 

And those forest gods may have changed over the centuries, depending upon their experiences and contact with other races.  Paganism of this kind can be related to atheism in that there may be no belief in a fixed god or gods - some believe in what seems best for them at the time.  This is where the Christians fell foul of the Romans, who were quite happy for people to worship their own gods as long as they worshipped the Roman ones too.  Pantheism, which equates God to nature, can also be seen as a form of atheism because it is abstract, and there are a number of tribes in the world who are, or have been, pantheist. 

 

...just saying the same thing in a way that is more palitable to those who do not want to realise or be connected to the religious or spiritual nature of the saying.  

 

Belief in a god/gods should not be confused with spirituality.  Spiritual feelings are part of a wide range of human emotions and not necessarily part of any religious experience. The primary definition of spiritual is 'of or concerning the spirit as opposed to matter', the secondary definition is 'concerned with religious or holy things'. Another definition is related to the primary one: 'refined, sensitive, not concerned with the material' (OEED).  

 

 

BTW perhaps TiggerBear found the 'preaching' offensive, as I am inclined to do.  I am not preaching that everyone will become an atheist, that knees will bow or doors will be opened when an atheist god catches up with them etc etc!  I have not said that anyone should believe one Golden Rule over another because it is 'true'.  I have not told anyone what will or will not happen to them if they do not live their lives in a certain way and I therefore prefer that the same courtesy is extended to me.   In other words, I do not wish to read these threads and feel as if a Jehovah's Witness is on my doorstep, waving a copy of the Watchtower!   (With apologies to any JW's who may read this - I use them as an evangelical example only.) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


vivico1 wrote:

Exactly! Because all religions started from one religion, one God. All truth came from that one God. Then, because men do have free agency, if they didn't like the laws of God, or just some of them, and wanted something that fit their lifestyle rather than changing to meet God's, they started adding things to make up their own religions, or subtract other things to make another. What was once one, became many. All three of the main religions in the world, have there roots in the Old Testament, Christianity, Judaism and Muslim. It is why that one little area of the world is so important to all three. Then you have all these thousands and thousands of other religions or types of one of the three spring up because that didn't suit all either and they wanted it to suit them. That is the same reason today that if a law does not suit one group of people or another, people say, come on, its the 21st century, we are better than that, we should be more open minded than that. Like God didn't know when he gave the laws, that we would be here today??? Or that we should have something different because we want to be more worldly? He knows us all, every person who will hit this earth, and He knows our needs, and they do not change, nor do his laws. We just try to change them. But they all come from one, and the golden rule came from that, just saying the same thing in a way that is more palitable to those who do not want to realise or be connected to the religious or spiritual nature of the saying. With so many changes from what was the truth, to variations of the truth, its no wonder some people don't believe any of it. But also some just don't want anyone or anything, including a God, telling them what they can do! It doesn't really matter tho, in the end it will all be set right and as the scriptures say...every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus is the Christ.

 

If any of God's laws seem exclusionary, or extreme or mean...it is because we are His children, and like any other children, we sometimes rail against our parents rules cause they just don't feel fair! With growth tho, we understand why our parents taught us what they did. It is the same with God's rules. And we grow by getting to knew them in the way he wants us to understand them, not what the neighborhood kid said, or what we come up with in a huff against them. But God is and always was a loving God, he is willing to give all things, teach all things....Ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened.

 

Religions did not grow out of fable, but fables grew out of changed religious canons. How can anyone doubt there is a God, when the entire human race, no matter where you go, feels inside and knows and worships some higher being in some way or the other? It is because we have the common experience that is spiritual that tells us there is more and we reach for that. You can not go into the deepest forest where the outside world has never touched and find any race of atheist. They will tell you of some god they worship and why. We all started as one family, one God and one day, we all will be again, but it will be by our own choice, the other choice is there for any wanting less. God does not want anyone to have less. He sent prophets and teachers and a Savior into the world to try to make sure we come home to him again, because he loves every single one of us, but He will force no man to heaven. We are children, trying to become ready for Heaven, as our own children try to become ready for the adult world. And often as humans children, we think we know better than both our Heavenly and earthly parent.

 


Choisya wrote:

Yes, and just another version of the Golden Rule which exists in many religions.

 

 

 


Peppermill wrote:

thewanderingjew wrote:

This is a simple truth to follow, no matter where you find it written.

Re: Leviticus 19:18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.‏


Simple, but not necessarily easy.


 


 

 


 

Message Edited by Choisya on 07-18-2009 08:35 AM
Distinguished Bibliophile
Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Re:

Please, ladies .....

 

I have no problem reading views here with which I may or may not agree, but I see no need to single out particular groups for condemnation.

 

A tenet, similar to the golden rule, and probably particularly relevant to our global world, is to welcome the stranger among us.

 

Pepper

 


Choisya wrote:

But also some just don't want anyone or anything, including a God, telling them what they can do!

 

Since atheists do not acknowledge that there is a god in the first place, the idea of such a non-person telling them what to do does not even enter their heads!

 

You can not go into the deepest forest where the outside world has never touched and find any race of atheist. They will tell you of some god they worship and why.

 

And those forest gods may have changed over the centuries, depending upon their experiences and contact with other races.  Paganism of this kind can be related to atheism in that there may be no belief in a fixed god or gods - some believe in what seems best for them at the time.  This is where the Christians fell foul of the Romans, who were quite happy for people to worship their own gods as long as they worshipped the Roman ones too.  Pantheism, which equates God to nature, can also be seen as a form of atheism because it is abstract, and there are a number of tribes in the world who are, or have been, pantheist. 

 

...just saying the same thing in a way that is more palitable to those who do not want to realise or be connected to the religious or spiritual nature of the saying.  

 

Belief in a god/gods should not be confused with spirituality.  Spiritual feelings are part of a wide range of human emotions and not necessarily part of any religious experience. The primary definition of spiritual is 'of or concerning the spirit as opposed to matter', the secondary definition is 'concerned with religious or holy things'. Another definition is related to the primary one: 'refined, sensitive, not concerned with the material' (OEED).  

 

 

BTW perhaps TiggerBear found the 'preaching' offensive, as I am inclined to do.  I am not preaching that everyone will become an atheist, that knees will bow or doors will be opened when an atheist god catches up with them etc etc!  I have not said that anyone should believe one Golden Rule over another because it is 'true'.  I have not told anyone what will or will not happen to them if they do not live their lives in a certain way and I therefore prefer that the same courtesy is extended to me.   In other words, I do not wish to read these threads and feel as if a Jehovah's Witness is on my doorstep, waving a copy of the Watchtower!   (With apologies to any JW's who may read this - I use them as an evangelical example only.) 

 

 

 

 


vivico1 wrote:

Exactly! Because all religions started from one religion, one God. All truth came from that one God. Then, because men do have free agency, if they didn't like the laws of God, or just some of them, and wanted something that fit their lifestyle rather than changing to meet God's, they started adding things to make up their own religions, or subtract other things to make another. What was once one, became many. All three of the main religions in the world, have there roots in the Old Testament, Christianity, Judaism and Muslim. It is why that one little area of the world is so important to all three. Then you have all these thousands and thousands of other religions or types of one of the three spring up because that didn't suit all either and they wanted it to suit them. That is the same reason today that if a law does not suit one group of people or another, people say, come on, its the 21st century, we are better than that, we should be more open minded than that. Like God didn't know when he gave the laws, that we would be here today??? Or that we should have something different because we want to be more worldly? He knows us all, every person who will hit this earth, and He knows our needs, and they do not change, nor do his laws. We just try to change them. But they all come from one, and the golden rule came from that, just saying the same thing in a way that is more palitable to those who do not want to realise or be connected to the religious or spiritual nature of the saying. With so many changes from what was the truth, to variations of the truth, its no wonder some people don't believe any of it. But also some just don't want anyone or anything, including a God, telling them what they can do! It doesn't really matter tho, in the end it will all be set right and as the scriptures say...every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus is the Christ.

 

If any of God's laws seem exclusionary, or extreme or mean...it is because we are His children, and like any other children, we sometimes rail against our parents rules cause they just don't feel fair! With growth tho, we understand why our parents taught us what they did. It is the same with God's rules. And we grow by getting to knew them in the way he wants us to understand them, not what the neighborhood kid said, or what we come up with in a huff against them. But God is and always was a loving God, he is willing to give all things, teach all things....Ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened.

 

Religions did not grow out of fable, but fables grew out of changed religious canons. How can anyone doubt there is a God, when the entire human race, no matter where you go, feels inside and knows and worships some higher being in some way or the other? It is because we have the common experience that is spiritual that tells us there is more and we reach for that. You can not go into the deepest forest where the outside world has never touched and find any race of atheist. They will tell you of some god they worship and why. We all started as one family, one God and one day, we all will be again, but it will be by our own choice, the other choice is there for any wanting less. God does not want anyone to have less. He sent prophets and teachers and a Savior into the world to try to make sure we come home to him again, because he loves every single one of us, but He will force no man to heaven. We are children, trying to become ready for Heaven, as our own children try to become ready for the adult world. And often as humans children, we think we know better than both our Heavenly and earthly parent.

 


Choisya wrote:

Yes, and just another version of the Golden Rule which exists in many religions.

 

 

 


Peppermill wrote:

thewanderingjew wrote:

This is a simple truth to follow, no matter where you find it written.

Re: Leviticus 19:18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.‏


Simple, but not necessarily easy.




 

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
Scribe
vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Re:

You are right Pepper. So I will move on. And sometimes its easier to welcome the stranger among us than those we have known for some time. But having said that, hey, I am making some new friends this month from those strangers from a variety of backgrounds. Pretty cool when we do huh? I am ready to move on from this now tho, and I will. There are books to read and discuss! And I am behind! :smileywink:

 


Peppermill wrote:

Please, ladies .....

 

I have no problem reading views here with which I may or may not agree, but I see no need to single out particular groups for condemnation.

 

A tenet, similar to the golden rule, and probably particularly relevant to our global world, is to welcome the stranger among us.

 

Pepper

 



Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
Distinguished Bibliophile
Peppermill
Posts: 6,768
Registered: ‎04-04-2007
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Re: Re:

Thanks, Vivian.

 

I know that sometimes I must stare (mentally, if not physically) at those I think I know best and then proceed to treat them as complete strangers -- or as the Samaritan did the man beside the road  --  a fellow traveler on this treacherous path we call life.

 


vivico1 wrote:

You are right Pepper. So I will move on. And sometimes its easier to welcome the stranger among us than those we have known for some time. But having said that, hey, I am making some new friends this month from those strangers from a variety of backgrounds. Pretty cool when we do huh? I am ready to move on from this now tho, and I will. There are books to read and discuss! And I am behind! :smileywink:

 


Peppermill wrote:

Please, ladies .....

 

I have no problem reading views here with which I may or may not agree, but I see no need to single out particular groups for condemnation.

 

A tenet, similar to the golden rule, and probably particularly relevant to our global world, is to welcome the stranger among us.

 

Pepper



 

 

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy