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Our own judgement?



Carmenere_lady wrote: I will try to remember to site the verse when necessary and I have been reading the critics of which some are entirely above my head. Some of what the "experts" comment on will stick and sometimes my emotions will lead me in another direction.




In other words you are making your own transitions between the court and the forest.:smileyhappy:
You are led by your intuition away from teh court...

It could also be a word play: "forest is for rest".

ziki
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Our own judgement?

I also am new to all of this, and I must admit that as a teenager, I always wondered if we as critical readers, particularly in a more "scholarly" environment, do not read more into these classics than even the author intended (did an author pick a green light because green symbolizes hope or did he just happen to like green lights). I am just trying to peel away one layer of this text at a time, and enjoying your discussions. In the end, we will each find something(s) we will relate to in the story, and isn't that what enjoying a good piece of literature is all about

One thing I wish I had done was attempt to read this through the first time before reading all of the critical summaries. I won't make that mistake the next time.
-----------

I think we can read into it whatever we want and how much we want. The work (book, play) is there for us. It's not the other way round as in school: us being there for the work.

BTW...who would decide the final volume of your allowed interpretations? I think the classics are alive just because of the ability to hold so many and at times such disparate ideas.

Therefore I do not read the comments to start with but note, that makes for more difficult reading. It can be a situation when others laugh and I do not have a clue why. Slowly though the play takes shape. Such reading gives me my own feeling (forest) as a base for others' thoughts and opinions (courts). All [six plus] characters seem to coexist better in the court once they have been through the forest. Ans so 'tis also in life, people who know themselves well (are more conscious, aware) are easier to relate to.

ziki
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understand



Everyman wrote:After all, the audiences in Shakespeare's day had to watch and understand the play without the "benefit" of a single critical opinion. If they could do it, we can do it!




OK, better late than never (=my usual motto). Only a couple of hundred years delayed I am glad to hear that I stil have a fair chance. I intend to use it.

happily paddling on
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how others think

Choisya wrote:
I still prefer to back up what text I refer to or quote with the opinions of others more learned than myself because IMO it adds to the discussion:smileyhappy: I also like to read similar references put forward by others. I did this at school and college and like to do it now.
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Absolutely, that is also why we are here,on BN, we want to hear what others think. It is no different with critics. They are just people who know how to promote their opinions.
Either they serve me as a wall (I bounce of it or struggle with it, shout at it) or they serve me as mirrors for recognition. Both functions are useful and necessary: we become who we are in relation to our surroundings and to other people.

ziki
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Re: Critics and Other Readers



Everyman wrote:The problem is that when you stop looking at the plays to find out what Shakespeare intended, and look for things that you might want to find there whether or not he intended them, you step off a cliff and may or may not have a functional para glider to bring you back safely to earth.>


I am not sure earth is such a safe ground after all but OK, it is important to go the the forest you say, or?
ziki
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Choisya
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Re: The Play's the thing...layers

Yes, plays happen in a given moment of time and are different not only for every director's production but for every performance because the actors can never do the same thing twice, exactly, no matter how hard they try. This is also true when we read them - each reading will be different according to circumstance, mood, interpretation etc., maybe even what we had for dinner.:smileyhappy: I just think it is very important to remember that Shakespeare was a playwright, a dramatist, not a novelist, and that reading these works as plays - seeing in our mind's eye the stage directions, the costumes, the props if any, etc. etc., the interaction of the actors, should give us a very different experience to just reading a play.




ziki wrote:


Choisya wrote: MND is a play and the characters are doing the bidding of the playwright for the benefit of an audience. We are not reading a story here, we are reading a play. You may wish to interpret it as only a story and that is OK, but I do not. For me 'The Play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king' - the king for me, in this instance, being Shakespeare. I wish to understand the entirety of the play, not just the story.




So IOW you are saying that there are levels of meaning in it and that it is not only about the plot line, right?

For me it is important to remember this. What I read is just a dialog and there is no narrative (contrary to a book).
Reading a film script is different from seeing the movie when all components are combined in a desired way. The difference in a play is even bigger because the play happens in a particular moment and isn't (wasn't) recorded. Like music it occurs in the "Now" and each moment is different (caused in this case by the interaction with the public).

But also Heraclitus said: 'you never step twice into the same river', you can't repeat life, each moment is unique.

That might be another layer of meaning, and these layers are peeled from our eyes so that we can see(= become conscious)** or added (like the juice of the herbs) so that we see somethign that is not really there (appearances).

** I see= I understand, I know now and if oyu play with words: it says "know Now". Know each moment.

Very clever.

ziki


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Choisya
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Re: Our own judgement - or understanding?

I think we perhaps need to differentiate between 'understanding' and 'judgement'. When reading an author wrote in an archaic language, for a very different audience, as Shakespeare did, we sometimes need to read Notes in order to understand him. That, IMO, is quite different to reading Notes which make judgements or give inerpretations of the plot etc.





ziki wrote:
I also am new to all of this, and I must admit that as a teenager, I always wondered if we as critical readers, particularly in a more "scholarly" environment, do not read more into these classics than even the author intended (did an author pick a green light because green symbolizes hope or did he just happen to like green lights). I am just trying to peel away one layer of this text at a time, and enjoying your discussions. In the end, we will each find something(s) we will relate to in the story, and isn't that what enjoying a good piece of literature is all about

One thing I wish I had done was attempt to read this through the first time before reading all of the critical summaries. I won't make that mistake the next time.
-----------

I think we can read into it whatever we want and how much we want. The work (book, play) is there for us. It's not the other way round as in school: us being there for the work.

BTW...who would decide the final volume of your allowed interpretations? I think the classics are alive just because of the ability to hold so many and at times such disparate ideas.

Therefore I do not read the comments to start with but note, that makes for more difficult reading. It can be a situation when others laugh and I do not have a clue why. Slowly though the play takes shape. Such reading gives me my own feeling (forest) as a base for others' thoughts and opinions (courts). All [six plus] characters seem to coexist better in the court once they have been through the forest. Ans so 'tis also in life, people who know themselves well (are more conscious, aware) are easier to relate to.

ziki


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Choisya
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Re: understand

Ah ziki but you are like an Elizabethan audience, you have the comments and 'critiicism' of your neighbours here and after a harpoon socket of rum of two in the nearby tavern you could hear even more 'critical opinions'. Plays did not happen in isolation - far from it, they were very communal experiences with critical words being bandied about along with the rotten tomatoes.:smileyhappy:




ziki wrote:


Everyman wrote:After all, the audiences in Shakespeare's day had to watch and understand the play without the "benefit" of a single critical opinion. If they could do it, we can do it!




OK, better late than never (=my usual motto). Only a couple of hundred years delayed I am glad to hear that I stil have a fair chance. I intend to use it.

happily paddling on


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Re: Our own judgement - or understanding?



Choisya wrote:
I think we perhaps need to differentiate between 'understanding' and 'judgement'. When reading an author wrote in an archaic language, for a very different audience, as Shakespeare did, we sometimes need to read Notes in order to understand him. That, IMO, is quite different to reading Notes which make judgements or give inerpretations of the plot etc.







Absolutely.
ziki
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cheryl_shell
Posts: 156
Registered: ‎12-08-2006
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Fairy Insurance


Everyman wrote:

Does it make a difference to this viewpoint that presumably the couples have no idea that the fairies are there blessing them? Though maybe they do know. Do you think they do?

If they don't know, though, the blessings don't help the Athenians resolve their unsettledness. The fairies may take away all the specters of deformity, disease, and death, but if the lovers don't know that, won't they be just as worried when they wake up?

That is, there two aspects to this. One is the worry about the ills. Two is the ills themselves. They're related but separate.

After all, if you're worried about paying your bills and somebody deposits $100,000 into your bank account but never tells you they've done it, your worries about bills don't go away even though the bills can all get paid (at least until you look at your bank statement and find out about the extra money being in your account.) In order for worries to go away, you have to know that somebody has helped them not happen.

Or are you suggesting that the fairies not only take away the ills but also take away the concerns about the ills? That would be some trick, but I guess fairies could pull it off if they wanted to.




Well, Everyman, it was mostly the audience who I imagined were going away feeling better, since they did see the fairies. Moreover, the fairies were protecting the lovers from the harms that come with being mortal (as I listed them), whether or not they knew they were being protected. But to answer your question, I do think that the lovers believed that the supernatural forces were somewhere out there blessing their bridal beds.
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