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ConnieAnnKirk
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets


Sonnet #3:

 

 

   But if thou live remembered not to be,

   Die single, and thine image dies with thee.

 

 


This is so sad.  The speaker seems to be saying that the only way one can be remembered and be a lasting part of the world is if s/he procreates.  Sheesh!  There are other ways to be remembered and other ways to make one's mark in the world, yes?  Also, there are always photographs these days, and video, to keep one's "image" around.  :smileywink:

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Laurel
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

Sounds like a continuing story.

ConnieK wrote:

Sonnet #3:

 

 

Look in thy glass and tell the face thou viewest

Now is the time that face should form another,

Whose fresh repair if now thou not renewest,

Thou dost beguile the world, unbless some mother.

For where is she so fair whose uneared womb

Disdains the tillage of thy husbandry?

Or who is he so fond will be the tomb

Of his self-love, to stop posterity?

Thou are thy mother's glass, and she in thee

Calls back the lovely April of her prime;

So thou through windows of thine age shalt see,

Despite of wrinkles, this thy golden time.

   But if thou live remembered not to be,

   Die single, and thine image dies with thee.

 

 

***

There's a pattern with these first numbered sonnets, isn't there?  With this one, I'm beginning to sense more of the sadness that Benedict has been talking about.

Message Edited by ConnieK on 04-06-2009 03:39 PM

 

"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Benedict3
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

[ Edited ]
Sonnet #3.

When the person of an age that generally has children within the reproductive years looks inside of the mirror after applying makeup and modifying their appearance to look like something other than what they are naturally; they insult their parents by attempting to be something other that what their parents genetically gave them.

We often apply makeup to appear younger.

But it is an honor to see our reflection within our offspring and like what we see.  We then, simultaneously give honor to our parents.  Enjoying who and what we are during each step of the way gives honor to our parents, but pretending to be something that we are not by looking at the glass and applying makeup implies that we do not like what our parents gave us thereby dishonoring them.

If you do not have any children, then there is no way to look at your youthful reflection in the presence of your offspring.  Even so, let you be you and do not dishonor your parents by presenting yourself as something that you are not by applying makeup in the mirror.  Just let it be, and allow the desired reflection of youth remain in the past.  It is the offspring that will continue your genetics, not those that  are ouside of child bearing years.  So love what you see in them, they are you, and you are them with respect to passing on genetics.  It is not your image that will help pass on genetics, it is them.

Sad if you apply makeup, not sad if you look at your children and see parts of yourself within them.
Message Edited by Benedict3 on 04-07-2009 07:55 AM
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

[ Edited ]

Benedict3 wrote, in part:


Sonnet #3.

When the person of an age that generally has children within the reproductive years looks inside of the mirror after applying makeup and modifying their appearance to look like something other than what they are naturally; they insult their parents by attempting to be something other that what their parents genetically gave them.

We often apply makeup to appear younger.


Hi, Benedict--which line in the sonnet do you read as talking about make-up?  I'm not finding it.  Thanks.

Message Edited by ConnieK on 04-07-2009 02:25 PM
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets


Laurel wrote:


Sounds like a continuing story.

Sonnet #3:

 

 


Yes; it sure does. 

 

I'm trying not to read too much criticism this go-round and just read what I see.  It's been awhile since I read these in order.

~ConnieAnnKirk




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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

Sonnet #4:

 

 

Unthrifty loveliness, why dost thou spend

Upon thyself thy beauty's legacy?

Nature's bequest gives nothing but doth lend,

And being frank, she lends to those are free.

Then, beauteous niggard, why dost thou abuse

The bounteous largess given thee to give?

Profitless usurer, why dost thou use

So great a sum of sums yet canst not live?

For, having traffic with thyself alone,

Thou of thyself thy sweet self dost deceive.

Then how, when nature calls thee to be gone,

What acceptable audit canst thou leave?

   Thy unused beauty must be tombed with thee,

   Which used lives th' executor to be.

 

 

~ConnieAnnKirk




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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

[ Edited ]

Sonnet #4:

 

 

Unthrifty loveliness, why dost thou spend

Upon thyself thy beauty's legacy?

Nature's bequest gives nothing but doth lend,

And being frank, she lends to those are free.

Then, beauteous niggard, why dost thou abuse

The bounteous largess given thee to give?

Profitless usurer, why dost thou use

So great a sum of sums yet canst not live?

For, having traffic with thyself alone,

Thou of thyself thy sweet self dost deceive.

Then how, when nature calls thee to be gone,

What acceptable audit canst thou leave?

   Thy unused beauty must be tombed with thee,

   Which used lives th' executor to be.

 

 


 

I'm noticing terms of money and investment in this sonnet:  "thrift," "bequest," "lend," "profitless," "usurer," "sums," "audit," "executor."
Message Edited by ConnieK on 04-07-2009 02:59 PM
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Laurel
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

I guess there could be some make-up in the first two lines here. More likely clothes and jewels, though.

ConnieK wrote:

Sonnet #4:

 

 

Unthrifty loveliness, why dost thou spend

Upon thyself thy beauty's legacy?

Nature's bequest gives nothing but doth lend,

And being frank, she lends to those are free.

Then, beauteous niggard, why dost thou abuse

The bounteous largess given thee to give?

Profitless usurer, why dost thou use

So great a sum of sums yet canst not live?

For, having traffic with thyself alone,

Thou of thyself thy sweet self dost deceive.

Then how, when nature calls thee to be gone,

What acceptable audit canst thou leave?

   Thy unused beauty must be tombed with thee,

   Which used lives th' executor to be.

 

 


 

"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Laurel
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

Right. And a differentiation between purchases and gifts.

ConnieK wrote:

Sonnet #4:

 

 

Unthrifty loveliness, why dost thou spend

Upon thyself thy beauty's legacy?

Nature's bequest gives nothing but doth lend,

And being frank, she lends to those are free.

Then, beauteous niggard, why dost thou abuse

The bounteous largess given thee to give?

Profitless usurer, why dost thou use

So great a sum of sums yet canst not live?

For, having traffic with thyself alone,

Thou of thyself thy sweet self dost deceive.

Then how, when nature calls thee to be gone,

What acceptable audit canst thou leave?

   Thy unused beauty must be tombed with thee,

   Which used lives th' executor to be.

 

 


 

I'm noticing terms of money and investment in this sonnet:  "thrift," "bequest," "lend," "profitless," "usurer," "sums," "audit," "executor."
Message Edited by ConnieK on 04-07-2009 02:59 PM

 

"Truth must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind, and therefore is congenial to it." ~~G.K. Chesterton
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets


ConnieK wrote:

Benedict3 wrote, in part:


Sonnet #3.

When the person of an age that generally has children within the reproductive years looks inside of the mirror after applying makeup and modifying their appearance to look like something other than what they are naturally; they insult their parents by attempting to be something other that what their parents genetically gave them.

We often apply makeup to appear younger.


Hi, Benedict--which line in the sonnet do you read as talking about make-up?  I'm not finding it.  Thanks.

Message Edited by ConnieK on 04-07-2009 02:25 PM

Sonnet #3:

 “Whose fresh repair if now thou not renewest”,

While looking in the glass, or mirror, we know what we want to see, but what we see is often different.  We want to see youthful brilliance, (or whatever you want), but what we see is wrinkles blemishes and imperfections.  Therefore we apply makeup.

“Whose fresh repair”, makeup being applied to ‘repair’ the face from the effects of aging.

“if now thou not renewest”, well, we can’t cash in and get a new young body.

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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

Sonnet #4:

 

We pass through the child bearing years.  The young looking at people of those ages with awe and the old likewise looking at those ages with awe.  Although we all look at this demographic with a pinch of yearning, we all get our chance to go through those years, short as it may be.  We have this entire life to live, and within that, we get to experience those years for a short time.  There is no purchasing those years to keep, we only march through time, and experience them.

If we attempt to purchase them, or to keep them, we will always be living a conceptual life, missing the richness of our experience of Nature as is, and “to be”.  If we are able to simply experience Nature where we are in time, and simply “to be”, then we are free from becoming caged within concepts, desires and separate from nature.

The richness of Nature that we can only experience, not control or create, can be hidden by our goals to remain young ourselves.   We all have Nature within us, and are within Nature around us, and they can be homogeneous, or at least no lines separating the two.  But our objectives are intellectual.  We have a choice to live in an intellectual world controlling and obtaining goals, or we can experience the richness of bounteous Nature.  When we live in the intellectual world and control, we may obtain that car that we wanted, we may obtain that house, but it is miniscule in comparison to the richness of Nature that was missed.  The undiscovered Nature of yourself, when it is time to sleep in the tomb, will never be experience by yourself, or those around you because you never tapped into it because of the blindness caused by objectives.

“Thy unused beauty, must be tombed with thee,”  Un-experienced nature stays hidden when not experiencing ‘to be’

“Which used(beauty) lives th’executor to be”  Grandparents, Parents, Children all living naturally and experiencing who and what they are through aging, allows each one to experience the richness of life, before the child bearing years, during the child bearing years, and after the child bearing years.  They are all the executor of ‘beauty’ because they allow themselves ‘to be’ what they are and experience the beauty of what they are.

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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

Shakespeare is always a good way to start the day.

 

And as always, the emotions sparked by reading Shakespeare are only a reflection of who we are as individuals.  He only paints an acurate depiction of what we are, it is us that impose the feeling of joy or sadness as we read it.

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friery
Posts: 209
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

(Jack, racing to keep up with ConnieK and Shakespeare.)

 

The tone of #3 seems more conversational than that of 1 or 2.  "Look in thy glass" is an example.

 

"Unbless some mother" in line 4 tells us that the subject of the discourse is, indeed, a man.

 

In the second quatrain, the rhyme of "womb" and "tomb" is jarring and disturbing.  (Helen Vendler suggests that the three quatrains deal with life, and the couplet with death.)

 

The word "mother" is repeated in lines 4 and 9.  This is also disturbing, since the mother in the first case is hypothetical, but it is the subject's mother in the second.  This also subtly suggests that, had the subject's father been as full of self-love as the present young man, the latter wouldn't be here.

 

There's an interesting set of images of the glass and seeing and windows throughout the poem.

 

"Husbandry" in line 6 is a fun pun.

 

And the phrase in the last line, "Die single," has almost the tone of a curse.

 

 


ConnieK wrote:

Sonnet #3:

 

 

Look in thy glass and tell the face thou viewest

Now is the time that face should form another,

Whose fresh repair if now thou not renewest,

Thou dost beguile the world, unbless some mother.

For where is she so fair whose uneared womb

Disdains the tillage of thy husbandry?

Or who is he so fond will be the tomb

Of his self-love, to stop posterity?

Thou are thy mother's glass, and she in thee

Calls back the lovely April of her prime;

So thou through windows of thine age shalt see,

Despite of wrinkles, this thy golden time.

   But if thou live remembered not to be,

   Die single, and thine image dies with thee.

 

 

***

There's a pattern with these first numbered sonnets, isn't there?  With this one, I'm beginning to sense more of the sadness that Benedict has been talking about.

Message Edited by ConnieK on 04-06-2009 03:39 PM

 

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friery
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

There's a set of phrases in this poem that are an interesting rhetorical device.  I think of it as oxymoron, but I don't think that's the right term.  Here they are:

  • Unthrifty loveliness
  • beauteous niggard
  • Profitless usurer

 

There's also a line that throws me a bit: "Thou of thyself thy sweet self dost deceive..."  (Line 10).  Is the meter off?  It doesn't seem like the expected iambic pentameter. There's also a heck of a lot of alliteration packed in there.

 


ConnieK wrote:

Sonnet #4:

 

 

Unthrifty loveliness, why dost thou spend

Upon thyself thy beauty's legacy?

Nature's bequest gives nothing but doth lend,

And being frank, she lends to those are free.

Then, beauteous niggard, why dost thou abuse

The bounteous largess given thee to give?

Profitless usurer, why dost thou use

So great a sum of sums yet canst not live?

For, having traffic with thyself alone,

Thou of thyself thy sweet self dost deceive.

Then how, when nature calls thee to be gone,

What acceptable audit canst thou leave?

   Thy unused beauty must be tombed with thee,

   Which used lives th' executor to be.

 

 


 

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friery
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

And, speaking of rhetorical devices, isn't there a lot of Synecdoche in this sonnet?  (Or as I'm told, "a type of metaphor in which the part stands for the whole, the whole for a part, the genus for the species, the species for the genus, the material for the thing made, or in short, any portion, section, or main quality for the whole or the thing itself (or vice versa)..."?

 

Examples: face, womb, glass, April, windows.

 


ConnieK wrote:

Sonnet #3:

 

 

Look in thy glass and tell the face thou viewest

Now is the time that face should form another,

Whose fresh repair if now thou not renewest,

Thou dost beguile the world, unbless some mother.

For where is she so fair whose uneared womb

Disdains the tillage of thy husbandry?

Or who is he so fond will be the tomb

Of his self-love, to stop posterity?

Thou are thy mother's glass, and she in thee

Calls back the lovely April of her prime;

So thou through windows of thine age shalt see,

Despite of wrinkles, this thy golden time.

   But if thou live remembered not to be,

   Die single, and thine image dies with thee.

 

 

***

There's a pattern with these first numbered sonnets, isn't there?  With this one, I'm beginning to sense more of the sadness that Benedict has been talking about.

Message Edited by ConnieK on 04-06-2009 03:39 PM

 

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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets


friery wrote:

And, speaking of rhetorical devices, isn't there a lot of Synecdoche in this sonnet?  (Or as I'm told, "a type of metaphor in which the part stands for the whole, the whole for a part, the genus for the species, the species for the genus, the material for the thing made, or in short, any portion, section, or main quality for the whole or the thing itself (or vice versa)..."?

 

Examples: face, womb, glass, April, windows.

 


ConnieK wrote:

Sonnet #3:

 

 

Look in thy glass and tell the face thou viewest

Now is the time that face should form another,

Whose fresh repair if now thou not renewest,

Thou dost beguile the world, unbless some mother.

For where is she so fair whose uneared womb

Disdains the tillage of thy husbandry?

Or who is he so fond will be the tomb

Of his self-love, to stop posterity?

Thou are thy mother's glass, and she in thee

Calls back the lovely April of her prime;

So thou through windows of thine age shalt see,

Despite of wrinkles, this thy golden time.

   But if thou live remembered not to be,

   Die single, and thine image dies with thee.

 

 

***

There's a pattern with these first numbered sonnets, isn't there?  With this one, I'm beginning to sense more of the sadness that Benedict has been talking about.

Message Edited by ConnieK on 04-06-2009 03:39 PM

 


 

 

Um.....  What?

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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets


friery wrote:

(Jack, racing to keep up with ConnieK and Shakespeare.)

 


Thanks, Jack.  I think you've helped answer my question of how many sonnets to discuss/week.  It's looking like 2 is about right.  They're rich, and this way, we'll have lots of months to return to them off and on (which I hope to do frequently).

 

 

~ConnieAnnKirk




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friery
Posts: 209
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

Good plan.

 

Weary with toil, I haste me to my bed,
The dear repose for limbs with travel tired;
But then begins a journey in my head
To work my mind, when body's work's expired:
For then my thoughts--from far where I abide--
Intend a zealous pilgrimage to thee,
And keep my drooping eyelids open wide,
Looking on darkness which the blind do see:
Save that my soul's imaginary sight
Presents thy shadow to my sightless view,
Which, like a jewel hung in ghastly night,
Makes black night beauteous, and her old face new.
Lo! thus, by day my limbs, by night my mind,
For thee, and for myself, no quiet find.

(Sonnet 27)

 

 
ConnieK wrote:

friery wrote:

(Jack, racing to keep up with ConnieK and Shakespeare.)

 


Thanks, Jack.  I think you've helped answer my question of how many sonnets to discuss/week.  It's looking like 2 is about right.  They're rich, and this way, we'll have lots of months to return to them off and on (which I hope to do frequently).

 

 


 

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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

Sonnet #5:

 

 

Those hours that with gentle work did frame

The lovely gaze where every eye doth dwell

Will play the tyrants to the very same

And that unfair which fairly doth excel;

For never-resting time leads summer on

To hideous winter and confounds him there,

Sap checked with frost and lusty leaves quite gone,

Beauty o'er-snowed and bareness everywhere.

Then, were not summer's distillations left

A liquid prisoner pent in walls of glass,

Beauty's effect with beauty were bereft,

Nor it nor no remembrance what it was.

   But flowers distilled, though they with winter meet,

   Leese but their show; their substance still lives sweet.

~ConnieAnnKirk




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Benedict3
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Re: Shakespeare's Sonnets

Sonnet #5

This is more abstract than the preceding sonnets, however it builds on the previous sonnets.  The thing to pay attention to here is our awareness, or conscious understandings of Nature as time passes by.  Our awareness and consciousness always tries to see the difference between what we want to be, and what is, and make moves to change (gentile work) what is to what we want to be.

Our concepts of Nature, being less than complete, therefore less than what Nature is, by default are less beautiful than what Nature is.  Although this is an integral part of our human consciousness geared toward helping us to survive; by seeing Nature as less perfect than our concepts of what “Nature should be” we show Shakespeare how ignorant we are.  By making something that is beautiful less than what it is in order to mold it into something that will help me as an individual human survive, makes me a Tyrant to all Nature.

And, during my short life, all of my Tyrannical moves, in the end, prevented me from seeing the beauty of the Nature inside of me as well as the Nature around me moment to moment.  So at the same time that I loose the joy of seeing Nature as it is moment to moment, which is more beautiful than my concepts of what Nature “should be” I also lessen what Nature is by changing it through the course of my life.  My good will, each human’s good will, ultimately takes away from the beauty of what Nature is.

Without controlling, and just ‘to be’ I allow the nature that is within me to interact with the Nature that surrounds me creating and allowing for the experience of the most beauty of all.  But by controlling as we age while our youthful physical beauty fades, the beauty of our internal nature remains.  Our flowing Nature trapped within our controlled moves.  Our eyes like glass through which one could see the true nature of an individual even when the actions of the individual are controlled by concepts and not by the inner beautiful Nature.

“A liquid prisoner pent to walls of glass”

When we allow ourselves to be natural (to be), and not controlling, or presenting something that we are not, even at the point of old age, we experience more of the beauty of life moment to moment than the youth who prevents the enjoyment of the inner Nature from interacting with the Nature around him/her.

“Leese but their show; their substance still lives sweet.”

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