Chapters 5-8, No Spoilers Please

[ConnieAnnKirk]

For readers who would like to discuss the book sequentially, this thread is for posts related particularly to Chapters 5-8, or from Chapter 1 up to and including Chapter 8.

[Sunltcloud]

Love as an Art.

Page 60. Kamala says:

“You are the best lover I have ever had. You are stronger than others, more flexible, more willing. You have learned my art well, Siddhartha. Someday, when I am older, I want to have your child. And nonetheless, my love, you have remained a sharamana, nonetheless you do not love me, you love no human being. Is this not so?”
“It may well be so, “ Siddhartha said wearily. “I am like you. You do not love either – how could you practice love as an art otherwise? People of our kind may not be able to love. Child people can love; that is their secret.”

I don’t understand the reason for Siddhartha to learn Kamala’s “art.” (Other than that it is an important part of Hinduism as expression of sensual enjoyment) Is he looking for love? Is he trying to perfect his “manliness?” What is he learning, experiencing? Is H. H. dissing lust when he lets us know that Kamala doesn’t love anybody? Or is this just another step on the literary ladder to the ending? Somebody enlighten me, please!

[evansj]

I get the feeling that his desire to learn about her "art" is his way of learning from her about how she views life and love. That is, he might see her as someone so different from him on many levels that he is curious to gain insight into her way of life. This goes along with his whole 'learning from experience and teaching' ideas as well. She is teaching him about herself, but he is also experiencing her lust and physical relationship.

[Sunltcloud]

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evansj wrote:
I get the feeling that his desire to learn about her "art" is his way of learning from her about how she views life and love. That is, he might see her as someone so different from him on many levels that he is curious to gain insight into her way of life. This goes along with his whole 'learning from experience and teaching' ideas as well. She is teaching him about herself, but he is also experiencing her lust and physical relationship.

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Thanks evansj for responding to my question. I understand what you are saying about him wanting to learn how she views life and love. He must have thought in the beginning that she could teach him about love. But when he says in the end "You do not love either - how could you practice love as an art otherwise?" he must have realized that love is something more than "art." And I guess the only way he could have understood this is by experiencing it through her.

[SAP7]

1. We cant believe that Govinda decided to let Siddartha go his own way.
2. Siddartha also had a dream of govinda turning into a woman and having sexual relations with him. He was having mixed thoughts about his sexuality due to the dream. When a woman offers him sexual relations he turns away and denies himself the pleasure. Is he having mixed feelings about women and his sexuality or is he just a little scared at this time?

3. Everything is bringing up sexual orientation. All we keep reading is about pleasure gardens and random women he sees.

4. Siddartha finishes his journey.

5. This a really wierd book.......seriously

[SAP19]

How did Siddarthur feel when he had to leave his best friend.
Does Siddarthur miss his father.
How does he spirtually connect to the Samarans?
What was the realtionship between Siddarthur and the merchant?

[SAP1]

1. Siddartha left Govinda
2. Siddartha was intrigued by Buddha after talking to him
3. Siddartha wanted to become enlightened like Buddha
4. Govinda stayed with Buddha
5. Siddartha left on his own journey to become enlightened
McLovin, BLue, Leonidas

[SAP2]

1. Chapter 5-8 put me to sleep. I dont remember much from it since we read it like two months ago but from what i remember it wasnt too interesting.
2. We didnt like the content of the chapter because it was boring.
3. The book began to get better as I got deeper into the story and I was more interested.
4. Chapter 5-8 was good because when he had that kid it spiced up the story.
5. Chapter 5-8 bored me and I didnt really understand it.

[SAP6]

1. Its weird how siddhartha turned that one women away at the river but later wanted to learn how to love from another one.
2. I thought this is were the book pick up a bit and became a little more interesting.
3. I believe siddhartha is somewhat a hypocrite, because he hated one women for lusting over him and he him self had a lust for the princess.
4. By this point Siddhartha is forgetting all of his beliefs and is going down a path that he despised before.
5. I have a hard time understanding Siddhartha sometimes.

[Sunltcloud]

SAP6 wrote in part: 5. I have a hard time understanding Siddhartha sometimes.

As I just wrote somewhere else, I do too. I have to look at the book as a fairy tale to appreciate the message. A fairy tale usually is a simplified version of a real situation. The writer only lets us know the outcome of those points that are important to the main question. In this case it is enlightenment. If it doesn't have to do with enlightenment we never find out what Siddhartha did with the rest of his life.

Another reason we don't understand Siddhartha is that we are not familiar with the kind of life Buddhist monks lead. We are taught to go to work, earn money, take care of our responsibilities. Siddhartha does not work for a living (except when he is with the merchant), he eats what is offered him, and seems to escape responsibility for all that is "worldly." Yes, that is hard to understand.

What I do when I read Siddhartha is to pretend that it all is only a thought process and that no real people are involved. The thought process deals with the question: how do I achieve balance within myself? Then I listen to the river, which is actually a metaphor for my conscience.

[SAT10]

1.) The ending sections of the book pull the entire book together. The reader is able to see how the book pulls together.

2.) We were surprised that Siddhartha decided to leave Govinda and go on his own path.

3.) It was surprising that Siddhartha wwent with the ferryman.

4.) We were also surprised that Siddhartha had a child.

5.) Why didn't Siddhartha know his child before?

[Sunltcloud]

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SAT10 wrote:
4.) We were also surprised that Siddhartha had a child.

5.) Why didn't Siddhartha know his child before?

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At the end of "Samsara" you'll find the answer to your question:

When she was first informed of Siddhartha's disappearance, she stepped over to the window, where she kept a rare songbird captive in a golden cage. She opened the door of the cage, took the bird out and let it fly away. For a long time she followed it with her gaze, the bird in its flight. From this day on she received no more visitors, and she kept her house locked. After some time had passed though, she was aware she was pregnant from the last time she and Siddhartha had been together.

[SAP3]

1. Its crazy how Siddhartha fell in love with a prostitute.
2. These chapters was a little turning point in the story of Siddharthar and his search.
3. They told the reader why and how he stayed with Kamala for so long.
4. Makes it seem that he is suicidle in chapter 8.
5. Siddharthars emotions change from the beginning to the end many times.

[SAP4]

1. I think it was good that Govinda left Siddy to go his own way, many people do that, but this situation was kind of pathetic seeing how Govinda was so attached to Siddy.

2.It was sweet(In an emotional state) How Siddy fell in love with a cortesan. dispite her profession he still had some sort of emotion toward her,.

3.comparison of Siddy to that caged songbird= awesome

4. siddy turns into a compulsive gambler--> becomes one of the materialists that he despised when he first entered the city

5. siddy learns that living above the world isn't going to help him achieve nirvana.

[SAP8]

1. Govinda turns into a woman, and so then Siddartha does something to him that is a little inappropriate.
2. Kamala and Siddartha should be married.
3. kamaswami wants respect from Siddartha, as well as Siddartha wants respect from Kamaswami.
4. Govinda has dreams that are really wild and crazy.
5. siddartha learns to cherish time and to be happy through it, instead of wasting it being mad or upset.

Message Edited by ConnieK on 02-03-2008 08:49 AM