Convince me!!

[SriniK]

"You and I may be very different and probably are, but I don't usually pick up one book to start it then put it down in the middle to start a whole new one.  Which is why I don't see the need to keep 2 Gigs worth of books with me at all times.  I don't even re-read a novel that I have already read, so why carry it with me like some sort of trophy?"

In reply to your quote above, why are you just thinking like a novel reader? Dont you read anything else at all? some self improvement books, or something related to your career that you have to refer again and again. Let me quote myself as an example. I am in technology field. I work with more than one software at a time. Last time I checked, smallest book published was around 300 pages. Imagine carrying 5 of them wherever I went. Sometimes I study/work at home, sometimes I just refer to them at work. How can I carry them back and forth? Needless to say hundreds of PDF manuals from various vendors. Now, I can make sure to carry my eReader in my backback/laptop bag. Technology is only as good as we make it work for us. If someone is just looking at it as a way to read just a romantic novel (nothing wrong with it tho'), then it might have been an expensive deal. But in my case, i can be a better organized worker.

[Po1gara]

Okay, I just had to jump in here. I found your response to having a cell phone being the next logical evolution of the phone interesting. I still don't own one, though I can think of numerous reasons why I should. I have however, pre-ordered the nook. I agree with you that the printed book is probably more convenient, especially at airports, but seeing as the last time I flew anywhere was 13 years ago, I don't see having a nook as being a problem. I DO have a problem with having had to, over the years, gotten rid of more books than I like to even think about. I've been an avid reader for over 50 years (started when I was 3) and have always been a lover of books, but all the moving we did during my husband's military career made having my physical library impractical. No, I don't NEED to have all my books carried around with me on a device, but you know what? Spending the time to search out some of the books I've had to discard and downloading them in preparation for the nook has been like finding long lost friends, as, like another contributor, I too enjoy re-reading favorites. I also intend to transfer these books to permanent storage so as not to lose them again, something I couldn't do with paper copies. So, do I NEED the nook? No, do I want it and will I enjoy it? Most definitely...YES! I would also like to extend my best wishes to dreamcatcher and her husband...god bless!

[LCranston]

ProjectNookLook:

>>No. I do not think you are serious, nor desiring of being convinced. <<

>>You have stated that your do not re-read novels or books once you have finished. You are not part of the demographic B&N wishes to reach. The Nook, and all e-readers, are for book lovers and since you have all but said you are not such a one;  you neither can be, nor should be, convinced. At $10 for a hardback you display, perhaps wisely, a frugality and economy of expense, but you would most likely be better served by the purchase of a quality HDTV. <<

>> Does not the internet qualify as “media”? << 

>> As to “the first steps toward absolute control” I should think MOST of the proposals, legislation, and judiciary fallacies of those in control NOW would be far easier, and larger, targets to attack. <<

>> So all YOUR money goes toward positive environmental change and the betterment of the human condition?  Your lifestyle doesn’t contribute in any way to the obscene amount of waste we produce? <<

>> Why a concern for security? Paperbacks and textbooks are only secure when left alone. What sensitive information do they contain, apart from diaries? Revisionist history is already in full swing…in paper books and textbooks, so what’s new here? Slanted and openly biased news reporting is rampant on all fronts and has been for years now….again how do e-readers make it worse? << 

>> The great thing about our country, for now, is that we can choose to spend our money (or what we are allowed to keep) on those things we feel are worthy of it. You enjoy that freedom as much as everyone else here. Why deprive them of something you partake in yourself? <<

===========================================

A book is the only place in which you can examine a fragile thought without breaking it, or explore an explosive idea without fear it will go off in your face.  It is one of the few havens remaining where a man's mind can get both provocation and privacy.  ~Edward P. Morgan


The worth of a book is to be measured by what you can carry away from it.  ~James Bryce

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.  Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.  ~Groucho Marx

Books let us into their souls and lay open to us the secrets of our own.  ~William Hazlitt

[Shadowlane]

Everyone is going to have their own reason to buy/not buy an ereader. It all comes down to what makes you happy.

I'm a collector. I hate to get rid of my books, because I often go back to reread them. My bookshelves are FULL. (All 5 of them.) I have books stacked on top of other books, and they're crammed in every space I can get them.  There is no more room in my house for more books or shelves; they're sitting in piles on the floor around my shelves as it is.

I often carry more than one book with me, because I'm often on the verge of finishing one during the day, and wouldn't know what to do if I finished and didn't have another one to start. Having the ability to not have to carry multiple books around is another big plus to me.  Not to mention the space that I'll save packing for vacation... I think I took 5 books with me last trip, and came home with 8...

I spend A LOT of money on books each year. (It's my one true addiction.) Right now, I usually end up putting off reading books that I'd really love to try. I can't justify the hardcover price for an author I'm unfamiliar with, so I wait for it to hit the bargain shelf, or to come out in paperback.  I know B&N has some work to do on pricing, but in general, $10 and the ability to get in now rather than wait a year is a big draw.  And even the author's I know and love, it's sometimes a cringe moment to fork over $20 for their newest.

With all that, I'm still going to miss my paper books, and my favorite authors will probably always have their new books crammed into my poor shelves somewhere. I'm not going to be in any giant rush to convert everything I own, but here's looking forward to a new way of doing things from this point onward.

[BillH]

Rant indeed ProjectNutJob!

Did you actually re-read what you wrote?

Who would even want to waste time to convince you?

[scifigirl1982]

I don't think anything will convince this person that ereaders are great...so why bother?

[joeypore]

---

ProjectNookLook wrote:

@joeypore,

Firstly thank you sincerely for your response, so far it is the only educated and enlightening one so far.  I appologize for the error in which I presented this lively debate and hope that we all can have  a more educated and mature discussion about the subject at hand.

If I may address some of the points in your response; you point out that the benefit of an e-reader is convenience and portability.  My argument to this is that a printed book is already portable and convenient, much more so than an electronic device. It is much easier to get through airport security with a paperback in my carry on.  I would have to turn on the e-reader and have it wiped down to be seached for explosives, along with my laptop, my iphone, or whatever other electronic device I would happen to have with me, that doesn't sound convenient to me.

Your Ipod, dishwasher, and running water points are all great.  I would like to point out however, that a dishwasher speeds up the cleaning of my dishes, and in some cases may clean my dishes better than I could by hand, using hotter water and harsher soaps that might irritate the skin.  Having all my music in my Ipod is a great convenience yes, and is different from an e-reader in that I may get sick of a song and skip song for new one that I haven't listened to too often.

You and I may be very different and probably are, but I don't usually pick up one book to start it then put it down in the middle to start a whole new one.  Which is why I don't see the need to keep 2 Gigs worth of books with me at all times.  I don't even re-read a novel that I have already read, so why carry it with me like some sort of trophy?

I understand your point of having the freedom to choose whether or not we adopt this technology or not, my argument is that I don't believe the covenience out weighs the glaring problems of reading from an electronic device, ie. battery life, screen clarity, to name a couple.

I appreciate your patriotic views, and consider myself a patriotic American as well, however at a time when the government is on the verge of telling us where, when and what kind of healthcare we can get, Im not sure that everyone will feel as you and I obviously do.

Maybe I have come across a little strong with my argument, it is not my intent to be histerical about a potential problem that I see here, but it is my intent to get people to stop and really think for one second, is this really convenient?  What is the purpose of this? 

We aren't doing stem cell research because we morally feel we shouldn't, but we certainly can; and I feel would benefit us more than having yet another way to read the written word.  Doesn't that seem backwards?

---

Thank you for your carefully thought out response.

First off, stem cell research has been to no avail. Not the simple stem cell research, but the stem cell research that uses dead babies that have been aborted, usually through mutilation, drugs, or suffocation. It's literally a dead end (no pun intended, at all). It's, quite frankly, a waste of tax payers money and a waste of time.

Ok, a printed book may be somewhat convenient, but they are really more cumbersome than I care to deal with. I usually carry two novels when I travel, and as far as space alone is concerned, that will save me a lot of it.

Second, no disrespect, but I travel very frequently, and I can tell you that the last time I had an electronic device "swabbed' was in 2002. And I am usually carrying my laptop, camera, iPod, cell phone, many chargers, batteries, a bluetooth headset, etc. And, as I said, since 2002, I have never once been stopped for an "electronic" issue. This is a non-issue.

Ok, well if you wanna play that game with usage. A Nook is much less harmful on the environment.

Next, your iPod example is rather skewed. You say, you may get tired of a song. This has nothing to do with the example presented. The fact that I have all of that music stored on a device so I have access to it should I want to listen to it. The Nook stores these documents, and I don't see how "too much memory" is an issue. 2GB of flash memory costs around $1.50 or so to make. There's really no argument for an added feature. It's a bookshelf; nothing more.

In addition, the Nook speeds up the process of purchasing books, tremendously.

Battery life is really a non issue. I barely ever run out of juice on my iPod, and I listen to music often. An eBook reader has tremendous battery life when serving as simply a book.  Charging devices has become a routine, and it's really not something that people mind, and it doesn't serve as a con to most people. Second, to screen clarity. After reading on an E-Ink screen, there really isn't a difference in clarity.  It actually proves to be better than printed text in many instnaces.

The problem with the healthcare issue is apparent.  However, because of pressure from people like us, it is being reduced drastically from its original terms.  It is essentaially a subsidy, if Congress passes it as it stands now.

I think the issue of getting [the majority] of people to think about whether it's convenient or not and if it will serve a justified purpose, comes from the $260 price point. For many, this cannot be an impulse buy at all, especially in these economic times.

People are encouaged to buy almost every product out there, by someone.  If that mere encouragement proves to shift people in their own judgement, that is not anyone else's business.

[SkeeterW]

ProjectNookLook, I really enjoyed your post and this thread in general, I have to say I agree with just about everything.  My Dear old Dad, were he still around would have scoffed and laughed at me for wanting an ereader.  (Still undecided on which brand I will get).  Not really trying to convince you here, but I can only tell you my reasons for wanting one.  Actually I can think of more reasons for not getting one.  A big one is that they will break someday.  Everything electronic fails.  It's one of those few absolutes.

Having said all that, my desire to obtain one of these "toys" is an evolution of what I'm doing already.   It started out in 1990 with a phillips velo 500 PDA.  I found I could transfer text files to it.  So when I was stuck somewhere I could pull it out and read something.  Then I went through a couple of other palm devices.  Of course I used them for many other things primarily but it turned out to be a tiny handy reader.  Now I'm using an Ipod to read on.  I've got about 100 books on it.  Mostly free stuff but some I've bought.  I had hoped on my trips overseas and during midnight hours at work when things are quiet, I could read something.  Well it's worked well for that purpose at work but vacationing it has been a bust because my kid and wife fight over it to play games on.  

I have carried a backup paper back, but my taste change in midstream and I like a variety of stuff to read.  Maybe a PDF file on some radio equipment<(I'm a Ham op ) or it's handy for checking emails and whatnot if I can get it from the family. ha ha...opps it's suppose to be lol now isn't it?!

Anyhow, I'm already reading on an electronic device and enjoying it.  It would be nice if the screen was a bit bigger than my ipod and it was a bit easier on the eyes.  I would look forward to switching from a book to a paper or magazine from time to time.  Also, I do read two or three books at a time.  Silly I know, my wife smirks at that practice and my electronic addiction, did I mention I'm a ham operator?  Do I really need it? No, not really.  But I'm over 50 now and I've got this attitude, why not?  I can afford it and I want one.  They seem pretty cool.  Hopefully the 1984 issue was a one time thing.  Still a bit nervous about the "thought police" having access to anything I read.

Yours is the voice of logic here.  So I agree with your ideas.  Still, I want one. So there you go. 

Cheers!

[njnookman]

---

ProjectNookLook wrote:

---

nookieJH wrote:

projectnooklook - you sir, are hilarious or just a plain idiot.

Why do people have cell phones, iPods, iTouch phones with a million different apps?  Why is there a need for texting?   Why do cell phones have the ablitiy to take pictures?

---

The cellular phone is the next logical step in the evolution of the telephone, smaller wireless and portable.  The cell phone gives you the convenience of using your phone when you need it and eliminates the old pay phone that we were saddled with for so long.  The cell phone is an improvement over the old "landline" phone,

---

Having spent my life on the forefront of the computing and communications marketplace, I think I might be qualified to comment on the merits of this discussion:

On 9/11/2001 every cell phone tower in Manhattan was jammed to capacity, and network controls were insufficiently evolved to protect their networks.  A lucky few got their calls through before the twin towers collapsed, but even more didn't. In natural disasters, the landline has more deterministic capacity and independent power, with universal access in places where cell phones don't go-- that's the way the network was engineered.  In disasters such as Three Mile Island, the network can also be controlled to shut down inbound calling to divert capacity to outbound calls, which it then prioritizes to enable better communications with the outside world..

       Cell phones may offer convenience, unique features, and non-simultaneous communications.  At the same time, they have spawned social evils (distracted driving, sexting, potential cancers, crowding of the airways) that were not even imagined in the rush to expand the access to telephony of all kinds.  For most purposes, I would agree that they ARE a better technology than the land line, but they are STILL subject to marketplace behavior.

    Similarly, digital watches have driven prices down and made watches cheap enough for all; but they have crowded out the mental facility to estimate time QUANTITIES, such as "it's almost 4", or "around 7" -- and phraseology such as "at your six".  Calculators have displaced slide rules, but in the displacement, we substitute unreasoned exactness beyond the limits of that which is calculable, for reasoned estimates to the proper degree of mathematical accuracy -- and costly mistakes result.

The point:  ALL technologies are constantly evolving, from PC's to washing machines (who ever thought a washer/dryer would be a decorative interior design element?).  As customers, we choose to include or discard our technologies at varying rates depending on our personal needs: curiosity, status, fundamental requirements, influence from friends, and personal "intangible" factors.  Our needs evolve over time, and none of us have the same rate of adoption.  Thus, Blu-Ray's co-exist with DVD's, TIVO with VCR,s, and cell phones with land lines.

       In my own household, there are 4 personal cellphones, one cable internet phone with 3 wireless extensions, and a single "lifeline" Verizon line which gives me emergency service when the power goes out and the batteries aren't charged!

Smart marketers understand the rate of technology adoption, try to create demands, but realize that they can only estimate demands, and must always react  to actual sales. Even the best demand estimates can give way to the uncertainties of launching a brand new product, frequently causing  demand nightmares at introduction time (remember the PlayStation Portable? or the TickleMeElmo?).

Even if the supply can meet the demand, and we have made the decision to purchase, you and I might still differ in our personal rates of readiness for acquiring nook, depending on a myriad of forces, such as our economic and financial situation, our family's health situation, pending personal events, and sudden reference opinions that crop up at the last minute.

      You are not "wrong" or "right" if you make a decision to buy or not-- you are simply making your personal choices in the light of your total situations.  Neither am I "wrong" or "right" for my decision-- I have simply voted whether I will add, or not add, a new product to the other solutions which already fulfill some part of my personal needs spectrum.

Please accept this opinion as that of one who is open to hearing about legitimate statements of marketplace needs -- fulfilled or unfulfilled -- as the best kind of reactive feedback from a potential marketplace.  But also accept that feelings, subjective comments, and opinions, when rendered in inflammatory prose, can distort the search for objective information, when expressed as it has been in this thread.

I feel that the heat of commentary in this thread has blurred that search for objective information, and would request that the moderators edit out some of the more offensive and irrelevant language.  The thread contains legitimate questions, and legitmate answers, which could ultimately become a resources to future readers -- but they are diminished by the surrounding flood of rhetorics, to the detriment of all.

[Gone78]

I think you just answered your own question: the Nook is not for you. However, the majority of the customers who are willing to fork over $250 for the Nook have done their research before buying the device, and they obviously want it. Myself included. I'm a digital junkie. I have over 10,000 songs on my iPod, and I'll only listen to maybe 20 songs at any given time, but I like having my entire library accessible on one device. At first, I wasn't crazy about buying digital copies, but I quickly came to prefer it. I only buy physical copies when it's something that's a little more sentimental.

There are a few reasons why I will buy a Nook.

1) Storage: I have hundreds of books in my home. So many that I'm forced to box up the majority, and it's a huge pain to dig through the closet when I have a whim to read a certain book that I may or may not stay interested in.

2) Accessibility: I read several books at one time. At the moment, I am working on four books (that I remember). These include a huge hardback (I hate hardbacks) and a very thick paperback. Instead of juggling 4-5 books (I'm always hunting down a mislplaced book), I like the idea of accessing several books at once, on one device.

3) Convenience: I have a bad habit of reading books while I'm eating. Or at least attempting to. It's pretty awkward to comfortably hold a book and turn the pages while you're using the other hand to eat with. I like the idea of propping the Nook up, and enjoying it hands-free, only occasionally turning the page with a touch of the finger.

I know that BN will likely release an updated Nook in the near future, and that's ok. That iPod Touch is sure sweet, but my iPod Classic still gets the job done. When a new version of the Nook comes out that's too tempting to pass up and I'm ready to spend the money, I'll do the same as I did with my iPod - pass the old one down to my children and buy myself the newest one. The Nook is clearly not for everyone, but I am lining up to buy my own as soon as Christmas is over (gotta pay for those Christmas gifts first!).

---

ProjectNookLook wrote:

I'm totally serious here when I ask, "What is the benefit to having this new e-reader, or any e-reader for that matter?"

Stopping for a second to take a closer look at this marvel of the new century I'm asking more and more questions.  The B&N website would like to blind you with benefits like, "You have a whole B&N at your finger tips!"  Well let's think about that for a minute, do we really need the whole store at the ready?  I don't know about you but I only read one book at a time.  If I get done with one and I want to move on I have another ready to crack open.  Do we seriously need 2 gigs of books at the ready? Are we going to store books away like a squirrel for the winter voraciously reading one novel or newspaper after the next?  Especially when the new season of "Do You Think You Can Dance" is about to air.  It's one of the only times people come out to vote.

Who reads magazines or newspapers anymore? The media is so skewed now as it is that readership is at an all time low. Most people like me get their news from the internet. So what's the point of a renewing download.  There was a good point about getting free downloads on public domain books.  Most of which we have read in High School and um don't my tax dollars already go towards something called a Library where I can get those books loaned to me for free anyway?

Now let's take another look at the sustainability of a device like an e-reader.  Last time I read a book I didn't have to worry about the screen cracking or the battery running out.  Oh but wait!  After I spend TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS on this thing I can pay some more money to get an extra year to insure my device against accidents like cracked screens and accidental submersion in water? How can I lose?  Last time I bought a book I paid about ten bucks for it HARDBACK and was done with it.

Now for you hippies out there, sure we save a few trees when we digitally get our magazines, newspapers, and books, but what about the mercury and other toxic metals in the screen, battery, and the pcb that make up this device?  We are already drowning China in a wave of toxic solder and mercury thanks to computer memory doubling every six months.  You can guarantee a new version of these devices to be released in the next six months as the inevitable 4G network launches.  Now we all have to upgrade! Boom another Two Hundred Bucks! IF your lucky!!

Now to question the security of such a device?  Oh are you gonna tell me that it has WEP encryption? Easily brute forced!!  With this WiFi option included, you can download all the books you want right?  What stops the Ministry of Truth from accessing your e-book and changing history or news how they see fit?  What stops the data that you download from being corrupted? Oh but I have a backup copy on B&N dot com? Really like that database can't be hacked or altered?  And who pays when this happens, YOU!!

Movable type and the printed word are mankind's greatest inventions!  The printing press brought the word of god to people who up until that time could not afford and could not comprehend it.  The printed word gave us our freedoms, and it is through supposed convenience that this device brings; that we lose that freedom.  The NOOK (CROOK) and other devices like it are perfect examples of just because you CAN do something does not necessarily mean you SHOULD do something.

I know this rant is going to seem crazy, even apocalyptic, but stop for a second and THINK!  Convince me that this device and other like it are not the first steps toward absolute control over people.  Convince me that in the least this device is worth spending the money on and the upkeep.  Convince me!

---

[Carvinlee]

What bait does your neighbor use? I can't seem to catch one myself.

[Aminojaku]

---

ProjectNookLook wrote:

Thanks guy!  I see that you selectively read my arguments and picked out those things that you could easily make fun of! 

Let me congratulate you on a job well done! 

I would like to know your response to the point I made about these devices causing more ecological harm to our planet than a regular paperback?

The fact that you don't wish to dabate me is fine, and your insults toward me are moot as I can't be offended by someone who took his net-handle from a Weeaboo porno! 

Thanks for playing tho!!

---

I wasn't selective at all. The post was in reply to everything spewing forth from your fingers.  I also wonder if you even realize how much of a hypocrite you are?

As for the one actual question there... your point was factually incorrect. If you had bother to research you would have learned a lot .The amount of trees cut down for the sole purpose of making paper for books is a massive problem. Only a small percentage of books are produced using recycled materials or paper from renewable tree farms. Then there are the toxins produced byt the equipment clearcutting the forrests and transporting the goods. The energy used in making paper (12% of all US energy needs used by manufacturing is used to make paper as of 15 years ago, and grown since). There's the chemicals, waste and polution created in the chemical pulping process (chemical is more expensive but uses less energy and creates stronger paper). Chemicals and waste from the bleaching process. Physical books will use far more energy and produce far more polution in the constant transportaion needs. All of this is done over and over and over and over millions of times as millions of books are produced, transported and sold.

An eReader is made and sold only once. It too uses chemicals, energy and creates polutants when being manufactured and sold. Being an electronic and plastics based product it can be harsher to make than a book. Yet, again, it's only done once whle the books you replace with it are done hundreds of times (depending on how many books you buy and put on it). In the end the net effect of eReaders is positive. In fact very positive based on various studies done to date. The amount of CO2 production alone makes eReaders VASTLY more environmentally friendly than paper books. 168 kg of CO2 is produced in the making and 4 years of use of an eReader. In that same 4 years, the amount of CO2 produced by the books that 1 eReader replaces can range from 1,074 kg (3 books per month) to 26,098 kg of CO2 when an eReader with 2GB of memory is used to it's full capacity.

As for the electronic waste.. recycling and local regulations regarding how electronics can be disposed of helps to keep that in check in the long run.. just as recycling programs have been able to bring plastics and other materials into check over the past couple of decades.

So no... eReaders do not do more environmental harm than books.

[Ysabell]

Like others have been saying, it comes down to personal preference.  Based on what you have said, it would be ridiculous for you to consider spending money on any e-reader.  You say you don't reread books and you don't read more than one book at a time. 

I (and I can't be the only one), am in the middle of five books right now.  I always have at least two laying in my living room, one in the bedroom, and one in my purse.  When I go on a trip I always overestimate the number of books I will be able to read because I don't want to run out.  There's nothing worse than realizing that A) the book you brought on the airplane sucks or B) the book you brought on the airplane took you far less time to read than you thought it would.

For me, the idea of having as many as 17000+ books right at my fingertips makes my heart jump for joy.  While a paperback book is clearly easier to get through airport security, the slight inconvenience of proving my nook won't explode or turn into some sort of crude weapon while I'm on vacation is worth having my library with me.  Also, the fact that I lugged seven boxes of books plus two suitcases full of books up a flight of steps the last time I moved was a large factor in making the transition to an e-reader.  I don't like reading off of computer screens so this technology is great.  I'm willing to deal with a little glare (some of the books I own glare anyway) and the need to recharge occassionally.   

If you personally don't believe the pros outweigh the cons, then don't get it.  It's that simple.

There are companies who are doing stem cell research.  In March of this year Obama reversed Bush's ban on federally funded embryonic stem cell research.  This means companies can apply for federal grants to perform embryonic stem cell research.  (If you are not from the US I apologize.  I'm not sure what the laws are elsewhere).  I do agree that stem cell research is important and should probably take precedence over a new way to read a book, but the fact is, not everyone can be a medical researcher.  Some people research cancer cures, others cures to genetic diseases.  Some people research ways to make life more convenient in the form of iPods, fancy phones, laptop computers, dishwashers, and yes, e-readers.  Some people develop new kinds of sandwiches.  Obviously, not everyone wants every new piece of technology (or sandwich) that comes down the pipe but there are many people that do.

If this particular piece of technology doesn't float your boat, you can let it pass you by.  Books aren't going anywhere.  But the way your initial post was worded it sounded as though you were attacking anyone who wanted to embrace the technology.  Everyone's entitled to their opinions.  And I'll listen to yours as long as you'll listen to mine.