seems like you're swimming in the shallow end any way, ziki, contributing to another American legend: the one about folks who make lawsuits and arguments behind something completely trivial and pointless....
what is your side? I don't see your reason for arguing this point about movies making up a contemporary mythology, that becomes incorporated in the lore of people's lives.
you're not one of those folks who joins a message board expressly to spread dissent, are you ziki?
shallow pond, indeed, dude!
NO DIVING! NO LIFEGUARD ON DUTY!!
what is your side? I don't see your reason for arguing this point about movies making up a contemporary mythology, that becomes incorporated in the lore of people's lives.
you're not one of those folks who joins a message board expressly to spread dissent, are you ziki?
shallow pond, indeed, dude!
NO DIVING! NO LIFEGUARD ON DUTY!!
Thankyou for your kind words. However, I do not find a Google search of the internet as evidence of myth Daniel. The number of entries also reflect the preponderance of computers in the Western world. They are merely evidence of the money being spent to create the myth and I fear you are being dragged into the film-image-maker's own publicity machine
:- The children who are told stories by their admittedly middle-class parents will be the movers and shakers of the next generation. The Muslim child in Pakistan will clamour for a Superman doll but not get one because it is associated with magic and is 'haram' (likewise HP or Narnia books), therefore Mohammed will stay enshrined in its memory. The surprise of a child seeing Superman revealed is not 'awe' IMO and cannot supercede the personal experiences and beliefs of its family and its 'collective unconscious', which are imprinted on its psyche before and immediately following birth. (Do you really think that a Jewish child today will not be reciting 'the story of his great grandmother’s courage in the face of adversity' to its own children, in preference to Superman?)
The awe a child experiences upon seeing Clark Kent shed his everyday clothing to reveal the “superhero” that is truly is inside can be just as powerful as the awe he experiences from hearing the story of Jesus’ resurrection in Church.
I am an atheist who has never seen a Superman film so have no experience of this kind of awe and I would welcome the opinion of a committed Christian on this point. I suspect that a psychologist would say that they are entirely different experiences. Certainly one feeling seems to endure into adulthood, and the other doesn't and that must say something in itself.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that the true measure of a myth's power is its shelf life
Yes but not necessarily because of 'deities'. 1932 is only a smidgin of history away (I was born in 1933!) and cannot possibly compete with the 4000 year old tales from the Epic of Gilgamesh which underpin Greek, Roman and Biblical stories. Who will the next 'rave' character be and how much money will another mogul pour into it to destroy then Superman empire? The heroes of old have survived without great publicity machines or great amounts of money and IMO will continue to do so because they are imprinted on our consciousness. The very fact that Superman was created out of one of the oldest myths is proof of that.
In fact, the spectacular presentation of Superman – vivid colors, affecting music, enveloping images of flight – probably carries exponentially more power to a child than those “stories of old.” Is it right? Is it fair? Is it healthy? That’s another discussion entirely. But it’s true. At least, as far as I can see.
An opinion Daniel and no doubt one held by a lot of Americans, imbued as they are with film culture and the power of the publicity dollar, but yet to be proved 'true' over a substantial period of time. Also, at this period of our history the Western powers are in decline and the Eastern powers, viz: China and India (now referred to as Chindia!) are on the rise and it may well be their myths which our grandchildren will be adding to their lexicon, not those of America. (Incidentally, from what I see around me Batman is bigger than Superman over here, although I have no statistics.)
I think what I am saying is don't get carried away by a temporary media phenomenon and publicity engendered cult.
However, I was just passing through because I saw my pal Ziki was here. I know nothing whatsoever about screenwriting and do not want to learn how to do it, so I had better bow out again before I upset anyone.!
:- The children who are told stories by their admittedly middle-class parents will be the movers and shakers of the next generation. The Muslim child in Pakistan will clamour for a Superman doll but not get one because it is associated with magic and is 'haram' (likewise HP or Narnia books), therefore Mohammed will stay enshrined in its memory. The surprise of a child seeing Superman revealed is not 'awe' IMO and cannot supercede the personal experiences and beliefs of its family and its 'collective unconscious', which are imprinted on its psyche before and immediately following birth. (Do you really think that a Jewish child today will not be reciting 'the story of his great grandmother’s courage in the face of adversity' to its own children, in preference to Superman?)The awe a child experiences upon seeing Clark Kent shed his everyday clothing to reveal the “superhero” that is truly is inside can be just as powerful as the awe he experiences from hearing the story of Jesus’ resurrection in Church.
I am an atheist who has never seen a Superman film so have no experience of this kind of awe and I would welcome the opinion of a committed Christian on this point. I suspect that a psychologist would say that they are entirely different experiences. Certainly one feeling seems to endure into adulthood, and the other doesn't and that must say something in itself.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that the true measure of a myth's power is its shelf life
Yes but not necessarily because of 'deities'. 1932 is only a smidgin of history away (I was born in 1933!) and cannot possibly compete with the 4000 year old tales from the Epic of Gilgamesh which underpin Greek, Roman and Biblical stories. Who will the next 'rave' character be and how much money will another mogul pour into it to destroy then Superman empire? The heroes of old have survived without great publicity machines or great amounts of money and IMO will continue to do so because they are imprinted on our consciousness. The very fact that Superman was created out of one of the oldest myths is proof of that.
In fact, the spectacular presentation of Superman – vivid colors, affecting music, enveloping images of flight – probably carries exponentially more power to a child than those “stories of old.” Is it right? Is it fair? Is it healthy? That’s another discussion entirely. But it’s true. At least, as far as I can see.
An opinion Daniel and no doubt one held by a lot of Americans, imbued as they are with film culture and the power of the publicity dollar, but yet to be proved 'true' over a substantial period of time. Also, at this period of our history the Western powers are in decline and the Eastern powers, viz: China and India (now referred to as Chindia!) are on the rise and it may well be their myths which our grandchildren will be adding to their lexicon, not those of America. (Incidentally, from what I see around me Batman is bigger than Superman over here, although I have no statistics.)
I think what I am saying is don't get carried away by a temporary media phenomenon and publicity engendered cult.
However, I was just passing through because I saw my pal Ziki was here. I know nothing whatsoever about screenwriting and do not want to learn how to do it, so I had better bow out again before I upset anyone.!
danielnoah wrote:
Welcome to the discussion, Choisya. I'm excited by your thoughtful and informed posts! There is great wisdom in everything you've written. It's true that historically the most lasting myths are those passed down from parent to child on the knee. It is also true that the relationship one has to Superman, who is a known fiction, is very different from the relationship one has to a god. All excellent points.
I think where you and I differ on this subject is in our respective definitions of "myth." If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that the true measure of a myth's power is its shelf life, and on that score, I concede that a character from pop culture can probably never have the staying power of a deity at the center of a major religion, when looking at the way things develop over centuries.
Then again, maybe it can. Though neither of us will be around to test your hypothesis that your great grandchildren will not know Superman, I beg to differ. Superman was created in the year 1932, and never has he been more popular than he is today. (A Google search of the word "Superman" produced 32,000,000 results, while the word "Zeus" produced only 17,000,000, and "Vishnu" a mere 3,600,00.) So while I'm not going to argue that the power of a deity is threatened by the power of a comic book character ("Jesus" turns up an impressive 151,000,000 results), I am going to argue that the parameters of myth in contemporary times are widening.
Your vision of the loving and knowledgeable parent passing the stories of old to the child on the knee is timeless. However, your assertion that today it’s these stories that are fortified in children before they’re exposed to media is, sadly, not universally true. Certainly it is true in poorer cultures, as you say, and probably in more traditional Western households, as well. But here in America at least, it’s a well known fact that a majority of parents use the television as the babysitter. Kids are exposed to characters from movies and TV very early. Family-designed vehicles now come equipped with TV screens and DVD players in the back seat; driving on the freeway in LA you are bound to spot kids in minivans taking in The Matrix while en route to Grandma’s house.
And by the way, even in the poorer cultures that we agree emphasize more traditional myths, it’s well known that there is a profound hunger for “American” culture. And by that, of course, we mean Pop Culture. A young Muslim child raised by strictly religious parents in Pakistan is just as likely to clamor for a Superman doll as he is to clamor to the mosque to pray to Allah. Perhaps even more so.
Finally, this. A myth, by definition, need not evoke belief. Only the power of inspiration. Superman’s power to inspire – to reflect the human experience, to better it – is in no way limited by our knowledge that he is not real. The awe a child experiences upon seeing Clark Kent shed his everyday clothing to reveal the “superhero” that is truly is inside can be just as powerful as the awe he experiences from hearing the story of Jesus’ resurrection in Church, or even the story of his great grandmother’s courage in the face of adversity as she, say, smuggled her family out of Germany during World War 2, or marched with Martin Luther King. In fact, the spectacular presentation of Superman – vivid colors, affecting music, enveloping images of flight – probably carries exponentially more power to a child than those “stories of old.”
Is it right? Is it fair? Is it healthy? That’s another discussion entirely. But it’s true. At least, as far as I can see.Message Edited by Choisya on 03-11-200708:15 PM
