Hemingway and Women (The Sea Change)

[bentley]

Has anyone read this short story yet? Curious because there is another female character portrayal that EH developed in this story.

Not sure how to approach discussion of this so I am leaving it open-ended for now. I have read the story and found it a different caricature than we have seen previously for the most part. This story is fairly complex as well and we see a different kind of man as well.

Any comments? I will leave my discussion of the story here so as not to spoil it for any readers.

[ziki]

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Choisya wrote:
Thanks. I thought you gave a yogic reference somewhere - kundalini?

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oh, yes, but better to keep things in context :-)

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 02-24-200712:04 AM

[bentley]

Has anybody read the Sea Change? I am wondering what folks thought of the female character in that short story and about the story in general. Elee had recommended this story some time back and I just got to it. It was a different story but good.

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bentley wrote:
Has anyone read this short story yet? Curious because there is another female character portrayal that EH developed in this story.

Not sure how to approach discussion of this so I am leaving it open-ended for now. I have read the story and found it a different caricature than we have seen previously for the most part. This story is fairly complex as well and we see a different kind of man as well.

Any comments? I will leave my discussion of the story here so as not to spoil it for any readers.

---

[ELee]

Ariel’s song from Shakespeare's "The Tempest"

Full fathom five thy father lies.
Of his bones are coral made;
Those are pearls that were his eyes;
Nothing of him that doth fade
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange.

I found many similarities between The Sea Change and Hills Like White Elephants, not the least of which is the principal use of dialogue to tell the story. Just like the couple in HLWE, within the first few lines of TSC we know that a relationship has experienced an irrevocable change. In the case of The Sea Change, the girl is leaving Phil to have a lesbian affair with another woman. This comes after the girl and Phil have had a relationship of some duration because he had it his own way “for a long time”. The girl’s response that she “can’t” rather than won’t seems to indicate that this attraction is something beyond her control. Phil looks at her and still sees the things that physically attracted him to her: her golden brown skin, blonde hair that grew beautifully away from her forehead, her eyes, her mouth, the curve of her cheek bones, the edge of her ear and her neck. At first he feels an angry jealousy and says “I’ll kill her”. Then he tries to bargain with the girl and asks if she couldn’t have “gotten into something else”. The girl tries to pacify and reach out to him, telling him how sorry she is and that she loves him very much. Phil pulls back into himself and his next reaction reflects denial as he refuses to touch her hand and tells her he would “rather not hear”. The real issue for Phil is introduced when he says “If it was a man-“. Her current sexual preference has caused him to feel inadequate as a man and sexual partner. Her new affair belies his expectations of the role he thought was his, and he cannot come to terms with her choice as a masculine, heterosexual male. While the girl is still able to love Phil on some deeper level, he equates the love, understanding and trust she talks about with sex and isn’t able to extend any forgiveness despite everything they’ve been to each other. There is even a hint that their [sexual] life together may have been a little “unusual”. He is determined to label her intention, calling it “perversion”, to which she responds “No. We’re made up of all sorts of things. You’ve known that. You’ve used it well enough.” This seems to resonate with Phil enough to allow him to move forward to releasing the girl. She makes sure that he means it, and then leaves without looking back. But he is now in uncharted territory. His voice sounds strange and is no longer recognizable to Phil. He is not the “same-looking” man: he is now a different-looking man, a different man than formerly. He has been forced to rethink his role and will have to reinvent himself if he is to come to terms with what has happened. Apparently he has made a good start, because the barman sees that he “look[s] very well.

Message Edited by ELee on 02-23-200709:20 PM

Message Edited by ELee on 02-23-200709:23 PM

[fanuzzir]

Absolutely! Hemingway is a classic modern personality, beset by memories of what he has lost and desire for what he does not have. The passages given over the fishing, for example, are part of an exageerated attempt to stay in the present and deny the influence of the past and the future. That rules out a happy relationship, but Hemingway was much more interested in exploring the artistic benefits of memory and longing.

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bentley wrote:
Hmmmm...I guess monogamy and Ern(Liest Hemingway (oxymoron)

So what you are saying is that when a broken relationship exists (I think you are talking about the EH world) that this is where H is expressing his masculine personality? When he is being the most male, he ruins his own relationships...???

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[fanuzzir]

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Choisya wrote:

EH himself moved within 'emancipated' circles, especially in Paris. However, for some reason, he chose not to to base characters on the strong women he met, like Gertrude Stein et al or on examples in the society around him. As an intellectual he would have been likely to have met a number of emancipated women of his time, at the front and in cafe society. Perhaps he chose to parody the women in fox furs instead? (He may have had strong women characters too but I have not yet come across them.

You could consider Brett a strong character in The Sun Also Rises but then she's out to make Jake feel small, so to speak. Hemingway's mileu was defintely not the working class women or the feminist or the fellow artist--remember that he dissed Gertrude Stein in the Moveable Feast. Women were there to showcase a character of men, whether it be gallantry, regret, self-pity, noble suffering. The high point of this male self-dramatization has to be Farewell to Arms, where the most satisfying relationship that a Hemingway ever enjoyed just had to end. He wanted the aftermath more than the pleasure.

[fanuzzir]

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bentley wrote:

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willowy wrote:
When I saw this thread on Hemingway and Women I immediately thought of Cat in the Rain one of my favorites. It is very unique in that it is told from the woman's point of view and is written in a sort of "minimalist" type way that I think Hemingway excelled at. The story was written around the time he was married to Hadley in Paris, and it is said that he wrote the story with their marriage in mind. It is kind of sad really that Hemingway could see that she need something more (more affection, more attention, more everything from him) and was able to write a story about it, but wasn't able to give any of that to her.

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Willowy..I really liked this story too..it seemed to be told from the women's perspective which was also interesting considering Hemingway could not give his wife what she needed and he was very cognizant of what those things were.

Also, in rereading it I saw how the hotel keeper made her feel important and "she liked the deadly serious way he received any complaints. She liked his dignity"..I think she liked him better than her husband whom she loved. Possibly she would have liked her husband to cater to her in some small way and give her some feelings that she was needed (even a little). I have to admit that at the beginning of the story that the husband did offer to get the cat and did say don't get wet (so he (E) wasn't totally obtuse or inconsiderate. But nevertheless he seemed to be at a loss to fill her empty hole. Probably because he had a bigger one.

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Let me add my two cents. I hate this story. I hate the way it makes a noble pursuit of a woman's interest in a wet cat. I hate the way the cat is all she can have, all she can want. I hate the fact that she gets the cat and will go on to live with this unfeeling **bleep**. Of course I admire Hemingway for having the bravery to paint such a bleak portrait. But I also resent him for giving a women her, so to speak, say, and making her the wounded little kitty. Go to it.

[fanuzzir]

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Choisya wrote:
EH went out to find action, to find himself...and what did he ended up with? Injuries? What were his crutches? How unsafe it must have felt to walk in the midst of the earthquake for the men at that time. Maybe they knew they fuc--d up. Perhaps in that situation it is natural to grip the inherited role models (here the hunter) and try to create a whale leg out of it. Get a boat, too, go fishing, conquer.

On the other hand there were thousands of men who came back from that war, equally injured, determined never to fight a war again and from these we got a very different literature, like the War Poetry of Wilfred Owen, Siegfried Sassoon et al or All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Remarque. Others founded the League of Nations and devoted themselves to pacifism; yet others devoted themselves to environmental issues and the saving of the wild animals like the tiger and the elephant, which had been decimated by big game hunting.

Next generation after was guned down on the battlefield by the feminist gang.

They seem pretty hale and hearty to me and still getting us into wars

I am sick of the demanding criticizing overpowering metarzan women.

Where are they? I thought they had all died off or been struck dumb. Feminism of that sort has long died a death over here. Even the once militant Ozzie, Germaine Greer, is a pussycat these days

There is no ready substitute in this case...




This is a fascinating discussion that puts an entirely new spin on the fate of the Lost Generation. I like what is said about the real contributions of WWI veterans, in contrast to the psychic wounds nourished by writers like Hemingway. And I also like the collision course between the disenchanted male war hero and the modern intellectual woman. Though I would not put Brett Ashley in that category. You'll have to discover her for yourself in The Sun Also Rises. She plays a classic role as a pawn in a male game of competition; Gertrude Stein would laugh at her.

[Choisya]

???

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ziki wrote:

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Choisya wrote:
Thanks. I thought you gave a yogic reference somewhere - kundalini?

---

oh, yes, but better to keep things in context :-)

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 02-24-200712:04 AM

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[bentley]

Yes, I can certainly understand your perspective. Hadley should have been the one to put him at the door or send him out into the rain "permanently" with the cat. Considering they were living off of her trust fund when they first went abroad..you would have thought he might have treated her better. I also agree that she was like the wounded kitty in the rain without any place to go. Hadley certainly liked the hotel keeper better because he made her feel noticed and not invisible. EH seemed to have a way of making women feel smaller and more incompetant that they really were. In trying to stand up for themselves, I think these women on their own became stronger individuals..with him they were insignificant like they were portrayed. EH had to be the big cheese. But having said that..EH when he wrote this story certainly got the problems out in the open and put the problems in this relationship front and center. She appeared "silly" and he appeared an "inconsiderate sod" which I think he was. I think the Strange Country was actually the worst one that I read so far and it was longer. But you can certainly visualize what is going on in each and every one of his stories even though they disgust you sometimes.

I don't think I have hit on an unlifting story yet..but maybe I have just forgotten,

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fanuzzir wrote:

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bentley wrote:

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willowy wrote:
When I saw this thread on Hemingway and Women I immediately thought of Cat in the Rain one of my favorites. It is very unique in that it is told from the woman's point of view and is written in a sort of "minimalist" type way that I think Hemingway excelled at. The story was written around the time he was married to Hadley in Paris, and it is said that he wrote the story with their marriage in mind. It is kind of sad really that Hemingway could see that she need something more (more affection, more attention, more everything from him) and was able to write a story about it, but wasn't able to give any of that to her.

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Willowy..I really liked this story too..it seemed to be told from the women's perspective which was also interesting considering Hemingway could not give his wife what she needed and he was very cognizant of what those things were.

Also, in rereading it I saw how the hotel keeper made her feel important and "she liked the deadly serious way he received any complaints. She liked his dignity"..I think she liked him better than her husband whom she loved. Possibly she would have liked her husband to cater to her in some small way and give her some feelings that she was needed (even a little). I have to admit that at the beginning of the story that the husband did offer to get the cat and did say don't get wet (so he (E) wasn't totally obtuse or inconsiderate. But nevertheless he seemed to be at a loss to fill her empty hole. Probably because he had a bigger one.

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Let me add my two cents. I hate this story. I hate the way it makes a noble pursuit of a woman's interest in a wet cat. I hate the way the cat is all she can have, all she can want. I hate the fact that she gets the cat and will go on to live with this unfeeling **bleep**. Of course I admire Hemingway for having the bravery to paint such a bleak portrait. But I also resent him for giving a women her, so to speak, say, and making her the wounded little kitty. Go to it.

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[bentley]

Excellent comment...thanks for your explanation. My recollection (although it was a long time ago) is that Brett though stronger is not an admirable female character either. And I forgot what he did to Gertrude Stein.

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fanuzzir wrote:

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Choisya wrote:

EH himself moved within 'emancipated' circles, especially in Paris. However, for some reason, he chose not to to base characters on the strong women he met, like Gertrude Stein et al or on examples in the society around him. As an intellectual he would have been likely to have met a number of emancipated women of his time, at the front and in cafe society. Perhaps he chose to parody the women in fox furs instead? (He may have had strong women characters too but I have not yet come across them.

You could consider Brett a strong character in The Sun Also Rises but then she's out to make Jake feel small, so to speak. Hemingway's mileu was defintely not the working class women or the feminist or the fellow artist--remember that he dissed Gertrude Stein in the Moveable Feast. Women were there to showcase a character of men, whether it be gallantry, regret, self-pity, noble suffering. The high point of this male self-dramatization has to be Farewell to Arms, where the most satisfying relationship that a Hemingway ever enjoyed just had to end. He wanted the aftermath more than the pleasure.

---

[Choisya]

Where are they? I thought they had all died off or been struck dumb. Feminism of that sort has long died a death over here. Even the once militant Ozzie, Germaine Greer, is a pussycat these days


Readers may like to know that my above post was originally censored. When I wrote 'pussycat' in two separate words, which is correct English usage, the p---- word was bleeped, even though this is a common English term of endearment for a cat and precedes by centuries any other derogatory usage. As this is the third English word of mine in common use which has been either deleted or bleeped, I wrote a post complaining about it on the Help & Information thread, because I felt cross that this should be happening on a board devoted to literature being discussed by adults. My explanatory post on the H&I thread was also bleeped, then removed entirely and I received a condemnatory Email from the administrator. My post contained no objectionable words but I said that I 'resented' such censorship, that it was 'ridiculous', that I was 'cross' and would be writing to the MD of B&N about the censorious software involved (which I have done). This was apparently too 'strong'.

I have been contributing to two other American gardening forums for several years and have never been censored in this way. I find it very upsetting and inhibiting. How many other words or phrases which I was taught as a child 70+ years ago will be removed from these boards goodness only knows. It was George Bernard Shaw who said that England and America were 'separated by a common language' and I have come to learn how true this is. I wonder is it worth entering any discussions at all if my contributions are so ill-regarded.

(Strangely enough the a-s word is used in the title of a book being promoted here and this word is one which would offend many Brits but I would not dream of complaining about it because, as I have said, we are adults and should be able to deal with all kinds of words in book clubs devoted to literature. Another poster has used the word sc--w in a derogatory manner and this too would be unacceptable in some quarters but it remains on the boards. Only English words used by an Englishwoman seem suspect.)

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fanuzzir wrote:

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Choisya wrote:
EH went out to find action, to find himself...and what did he ended up with? Injuries? What were his crutches? How unsafe it must have felt to walk in the midst of the earthquake for the men at that time. Maybe they knew they fuc--d up. Perhaps in that situation it is natural to grip the inherited role models (here the hunter) and try to create a whale leg out of it. Get a boat, too, go fishing, conquer.

On the other hand there were thousands of men who came back from that war, equally injured, determined never to fight a war again and from these we got a very different literature, like the War Poetry of Wilfred Owen, Siegfried Sassoon et al or All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Remarque. Others founded the League of Nations and devoted themselves to pacifism; yet others devoted themselves to environmental issues and the saving of the wild animals like the tiger and the elephant, which had been decimated by big game hunting.

Next generation after was guned down on the battlefield by the feminist gang.

They seem pretty hale and hearty to me and still getting us into wars

I am sick of the demanding criticizing overpowering metarzan women.

Where are they? I thought they had all died off or been struck dumb. Feminism of that sort has long died a death over here. Even the once militant Ozzie, Germaine Greer, is a pussycat these days

There is no ready substitute in this case...




This is a fascinating discussion that puts an entirely new spin on the fate of the Lost Generation. I like what is said about the real contributions of WWI veterans, in contrast to the psychic wounds nourished by writers like Hemingway. And I also like the collision course between the disenchanted male war hero and the modern intellectual woman. Though I would not put Brett Ashley in that category. You'll have to discover her for yourself in The Sun Also Rises. She plays a classic role as a pawn in a male game of competition; Gertrude Stein would laugh at her.

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Message Edited by Choisya on 02-24-200709:22 AM

[bentley]

Choisya,

I am sorry that this happened to you. You know I read your note when it was first posted (possibly in the Help segment) and then when I went back to the same area (within the hour) it had disappeared. I did not know what happened to it (and was surprised frankly considering what you have mentioned in terms of "inappropriateness" of other posts which I agree with you on.

I am happy that you wrote to the Managing Director (I personally am not aware of who that is). You are of course correct. Maybe you will get a satisfactory response from the managing director and he/she will fix the software/computer problem that creates this situation. However, the human being who took off your note is another thing.

Have you brought this to the attention of Mr. Fanuzzi privately (possibly by email). That might be another option for you. I am not sure that the Hemingway and Women thread will help you but it does give you an opportunity to get the story out.

I personally feel that British folks speak and write a lot better than I have found in the average population here and you or any other Brit has nothing to be "censored" for in terms of using the word pussycat. Possibly the program can be made more intelligent so that when it is followed by a space and the word cat it is not an objectionable term. I have no idea but it shows that the computer program is only as intelligent as the person or persons who programmed it and the software.

Again I so sorry and I find it so odd that you received the treatment that you did.

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Choisya wrote:
Where are they? I thought they had all died off or been struck dumb. Feminism of that sort has long died a death over here. Even the once militant Ozzie, Germaine Greer, is a pussycat these days


Readers may like to know that my above post was originally censored. When I wrote 'pussycat' in two separate words, which is correct English usage, the p---- word was bleeped, even though this is a common English term of endearment for a cat and precedes by centuries any other derogatory usage. As this is the third English word of mine in common use which has been either deleted or bleeped, I wrote a post complaining about it on the Help & Information thread, because I felt cross that this should be happening on a board devoted to literature being discussed by adults. My explanatory post on the H&I thread was also bleeped, then removed entirely and I received a condemnatory Email from the administrator. My post contained no objectionable words but I said that I 'resented' such censorship, that it was 'ridiculous', that I was 'cross' and would be writing to the MD of B&N about the censorious software involved (which I have done). This was apparently too 'strong'.

I have been contributing to two other American gardening forums for several years and have never been censored in this way. I find it very upsetting and inhibiting. How many other words or phrases which I was taught as a child 70+ years ago will be removed from these boards goodness only knows. It was George Bernard Shaw who said that England and America were 'separated by a common language' and I have come to learn how true this is I wonder is it worth entering any discussions at all if my contributions are so ill-regarded.

(Strangely enough the a-s word is used in the title of a book being promoted here and this word is one which would offend many Brits but I would not dream of complaining about it because, as I have said, we are adults and should be able to deal with all kinds of words in book clubs devoted to literature. Another poster has used the word sc--w in a derogatory manner and this too would be unacceptable in some quarters but it remains on the boards. Only English words used by an Englishwoman seem suspect)

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fanuzzir wrote:

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Choisya wrote:
EH went out to find action, to find himself...and what did he ended up with? Injuries? What were his crutches? How unsafe it must have felt to walk in the midst of the earthquake for the men at that time. Maybe they knew they fuc--d up. Perhaps in that situation it is natural to grip the inherited role models (here the hunter) and try to create a whale leg out of it. Get a boat, too, go fishing, conquer.

On the other hand there were thousands of men who came back from that war, equally injured, determined never to fight a war again and from these we got a very different literature, like the War Poetry of Wilfred Owen, Siegfried Sassoon et al or All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Remarque. Others founded the League of Nations and devoted themselves to pacifism; yet others devoted themselves to environmental issues and the saving of the wild animals like the tiger and the elephant, which had been decimated by big game hunting.

Next generation after was guned down on the battlefield by the feminist gang.

They seem pretty hale and hearty to me and still getting us into wars

I am sick of the demanding criticizing overpowering metarzan women.

Where are they? I thought they had all died off or been struck dumb. Feminism of that sort has long died a death over here. Even the once militant Ozzie, Germaine Greer, is a pussycat these days

There is no ready substitute in this case...




This is a fascinating discussion that puts an entirely new spin on the fate of the Lost Generation. I like what is said about the real contributions of WWI veterans, in contrast to the psychic wounds nourished by writers like Hemingway. And I also like the collision course between the disenchanted male war hero and the modern intellectual woman. Though I would not put Brett Ashley in that category. You'll have to discover her for yourself in The Sun Also Rises. She plays a classic role as a pawn in a male game of competition; Gertrude Stein would laugh at her.

---

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[ziki]

I like your heading here because that is what I mean needs to happen next.

When it comes to the WWI in world-literature I am not fit to discuss that subject.
But I think it is typical that different people will deal with stress situations differently. Writers are not an exception to the rule.

Some children who grow up in less then favorable conditions will become stronger while others will cave in. Hemingway did whatever he could with the cards he was dealt, don't we all? Obviously he provokes strong feelings in readers even today, not bad.

For me to seek balanced modern portraits of women in Hemingway's prose would be like seeking strawberries on top of K2 or looking for natural snow in Dubai. But there are portraits that are intereting for many other reasons, methinks.

However, I maintain that Hemingway's contribution is valid because the same mechanisms that he describes are very much alive in people today even if they do not go on shooting safari anymore.


ziki
Now Wilson would you please pack the lion's skin together with the whole elephant cuz I am leaving this place in a jeep this very minute. Dispose of Macombe any way you like I see some hungry beasts over there.

PS
Brett was in another league altogether, I'm going to have a tea with her in Paris on my way back to London.
CU somewhere.

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fanuzzir wrote:This is a fascinating discussion that puts an entirely new spin on the fate of the Lost Generation. I like what is said about the real contributions of WWI veterans, in contrast to the psychic wounds nourished by writers like Hemingway. And I also like the collision course between the disenchanted male war hero and the modern intellectual woman. Though I would not put Brett Ashley in that category. You'll have to discover her for yourself in The Sun Also Rises. She plays a classic role as a pawn in a male game of competition; Gertrude Stein would laugh at her.

---

Message Edited by ziki on 02-24-200703:09 PM

[ziki]

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Choisya wrote: It was George Bernard Shaw who said that England and America were 'separated by a common language' and I have come to learn how true this is.

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Indeed. I am sorry to hear about the misunderstanding and I hope that these technical issues that are the base of the trouble will soon be resolved. I apreciate your contributions to the various discussions and I hope to read many more comments both from you and other active contributors.

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 02-25-200701:42 PM

[Choisya]

When it comes to the WWI in world-literature I am not fit to discuss that subject.

IMO you are fit to discuss any subject Ziki

But I think it is typical that different people will deal with stress situations differently. Writers are not an exception to the rule.

I agree, and different readers will deal differently with what they might see as unacceptable scenarios, like bullfighting and big gamehunting. I just close my eyes, as with whale hunting. One can still appreciate the writing

I maintain that Hemingway's contribution is valid because the same mechanisms that he describes are very much alive in people today even if they do not go on shooting safari anymore.

I agree although, unfortunately, wealthy people still go on shooting safaris and there are now very few tigers left in the world

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ziki wrote:
I like your heading here because that is what I mean needs to happen next.

When it comes to the WWI in world-literature I am not fit to discuss that subject.
But I think it is typical that different people will deal with stress situations differently. Writers are not an exception to the rule.

Some children who grow up in less then favorable conditions will become stronger while others will cave in. Hemingway did whatever he could with the cards he was dealt, don't we all? Obviously he provokes strong feelings in readers even today, not bad.

For me to seek balanced modern portraits of women in Hemingway's prose would be like seeking strawberries on top of K2 or looking for natural snow in Dubai. But there are portraits that are intereting for many other reasons, methinks.

However, I maintain that Hemingway's contribution is valid because the same mechanisms that he describes are very much alive in people today even if they do not go on shooting safari anymore.


ziki
Now Wilson would you please pack the lion's skin together with the whole elephant cuz I am leaving this place in a jeep this very minute. Dispose of Macombe any way you like I see some hungry beasts over there.

PS
Brett was in another league altogether, I'm going to have a tea with her in Paris on my way back to London.
CU somewhere.

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fanuzzir wrote:This is a fascinating discussion that puts an entirely new spin on the fate of the Lost Generation. I like what is said about the real contributions of WWI veterans, in contrast to the psychic wounds nourished by writers like Hemingway. And I also like the collision course between the disenchanted male war hero and the modern intellectual woman. Though I would not put Brett Ashley in that category. You'll have to discover her for yourself in The Sun Also Rises. She plays a classic role as a pawn in a male game of competition; Gertrude Stein would laugh at her.

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Message Edited by ziki on 02-24-200703:09 PM

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[Kevin]

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Choisya wrote:
Readers may like to know that my above post was originally censored.

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Hey, everyone.

We've been through the issue of the smut filter many times. Usually it works great. Sometimes, it causes some unintended bleeps. When it does, we take a look to see if it can or should be tweaked.

What we ask is that all messages stay within the User Guidelines.

This thread is veering off course a little bit. Let's get back to the books!

[Choisya]

I have helped to run a gardening Website for 5 years and contribute to several more, two of them American gardening sites. I have also written User Guidelines. At no time on those websites have words that I have used been censored/bleeped nor has it ever been suggested that I abused User Guidelines. Those readers who saw my H&I post (and wrote to me) will no doubt have seen that I did not do so on this occasion.

Yes, let's get back to the books but I must be very careful what Olde Englishe words I use. Those of you who have read Bill Bryson's Mother Tongue will know that a large number of Chaucerian and Shakespearean words are still in use in Yorkshire, my home county. And those of you happily posting those Shakespearean insults in Midsummer Night's dream will know that nothing like that can ever be posted 'for real' here.

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Kevin wrote:

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Choisya wrote:
Readers may like to know that my above post was originally censored.

---

Hey, everyone.

We've been through the issue of the smut filter many times. Usually it works great. Sometimes, it causes some unintended bleeps. When it does, we take a look to see if it can or should be tweaked.

What we ask is that all messages stay within the User Guidelines.

This thread is veering off course a little bit. Let's get back to the books!

---

Message Edited by Choisya on 02-24-200711:45 AM

[bentley]

Elee's interpretation of the Sea Change is worth reposting so that it does not get lost in the recent posts. Any comments on this short story and the female character in the story.

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ELee wrote:
Ariel’s song from Shakespeare's "The Tempest"

Full fathom five thy father lies.
Of his bones are coral made;
Those are pearls that were his eyes;
Nothing of him that doth fade
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange.

I found many similarities between The Sea Change and Hills Like White Elephants, not the least of which is the principal use of dialogue to tell the story. Just like the couple in HLWE, within the first few lines of TSC we know that a relationship has experienced an irrevocable change. In the case of The Sea Change, the girl is leaving Phil to have a lesbian affair with another woman. This comes after the girl and Phil have had a relationship of some duration because he had it his own way “for a long time”. The girl’s response that she “can’t” rather than won’t seems to indicate that this attraction is something beyond her control. Phil looks at her and still sees the things that physically attracted him to her: her golden brown skin, blonde hair that grew beautifully away from her forehead, her eyes, her mouth, the curve of her cheek bones, the edge of her ear and her neck. At first he feels an angry jealousy and says “I’ll kill her”. Then he tries to bargain with the girl and asks if she couldn’t have “gotten into something else”. The girl tries to pacify and reach out to him, telling him how sorry she is and that she loves him very much. Phil pulls back into himself and his next reaction reflects denial as he refuses to touch her hand and tells her he would “rather not hear”. The real issue for Phil is introduced when he says “If it was a man-“. Her current sexual preference has caused him to feel inadequate as a man and sexual partner. Her new affair belies his expectations of the role he thought was his, and he cannot come to terms with her choice as a masculine, heterosexual male. While the girl is still able to love Phil on some deeper level, he equates the love, understanding and trust she talks about with sex and isn’t able to extend any forgiveness despite everything they’ve been to each other. There is even a hint that their [sexual] life together may have been a little “unusual”. He is determined to label her intention, calling it “perversion”, to which she responds “No. We’re made up of all sorts of things. You’ve known that. You’ve used it well enough.” This seems to resonate with Phil enough to allow him to move forward to releasing the girl. She makes sure that he means it, and then leaves without looking back. But he is now in uncharted territory. His voice sounds strange and is no longer recognizable to Phil. He is not the “same-looking” man: he is now a different-looking man, a different man than formerly. He has been forced to rethink his role and will have to reinvent himself if he is to come to terms with what has happened. Apparently he has made a good start, because the barman sees that he “look[s] very well.

Message Edited by ELee on 02-23-200709:20 PM

Message Edited by ELee on 02-23-200709:23 PM

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[ziki]

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Choisya wrote: there are now very few tigers left in the world

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Lucky for us all, you are one of them.

ziki