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Choisya
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Re: A Moveable Feast

Good job that Puss didn't have a 'y' on the end Bentley or you would have been bleeped too:smileyhappy: I wonder if the guide book Europe on $5 Dollars a Day was inspired by Hemingway living in Paris?



bentley wrote:
Wrote Hemingway, “If you are lucky enough to have lived in Paris as a young man, then wherever you go for the rest of your life, it stays with you, for Paris is a moveable feast.”

ELee, I couldn't find my copy of A Moveable Feast and went out to buy a new one. From what I recall, this book had some tender moments in them written by an aging Hemingway who recalls a time when he was in love with his wife Hadley and lived on about $5 a day (enjoying life, his wife, his young son Bumpy, and his cat (yes Choisya...F. Puss).

Maybe a man filled with some anguish about some of his choices and filled with nostalgia.

Once I get through the stories, I look forward to rereading this book which was published after he died.

"If the reader prefers, this book may be regarded as fiction. But there is always the chance that such a book of fiction may throw some light on what has been written as fact".

- Ernest Hemingway


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Choisya
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Re: Hemingway and Women (Hemingway in Love)

Thanks for these very interesting links about Hemingway's life Bentley - I am enjoying them.




bentley wrote:
Hemingway has had a great many good things to say about Hadley (his first wife)

This is a write up that was curious.

http://www.pbs.org/hemingwayadventure/illinois.html

He seemed to be fairly tortured in later life by not being able to stand by Hadley.


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bentley
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Re: A Moveable Feast

Who knows Choisya...but thought you would enjoy the reference. No bleeps.




Choisya wrote:
Good job that Puss didn't have a 'y' on the end Bentley or you would have been bleeped too:smileyhappy: I wonder if the guide book Europe on $5 Dollars a Day was inspired by Hemingway living in Paris?



bentley wrote:
Wrote Hemingway, “If you are lucky enough to have lived in Paris as a young man, then wherever you go for the rest of your life, it stays with you, for Paris is a moveable feast.”

ELee, I couldn't find my copy of A Moveable Feast and went out to buy a new one. From what I recall, this book had some tender moments in them written by an aging Hemingway who recalls a time when he was in love with his wife Hadley and lived on about $5 a day (enjoying life, his wife, his young son Bumpy, and his cat (yes Choisya...F. Puss).

Maybe a man filled with some anguish about some of his choices and filled with nostalgia.

Once I get through the stories, I look forward to rereading this book which was published after he died.

"If the reader prefers, this book may be regarded as fiction. But there is always the chance that such a book of fiction may throw some light on what has been written as fact".

- Ernest Hemingway




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bentley
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Re: Hemingway and Women (Hemingway in Love)

No problem..I have been enjoying them myself and thought I would share w/all.




Choisya wrote:
Thanks for these very interesting links about Hemingway's life Bentley - I am enjoying them.




bentley wrote:
Hemingway has had a great many good things to say about Hadley (his first wife)

This is a write up that was curious.

http://www.pbs.org/hemingwayadventure/illinois.html

He seemed to be fairly tortured in later life by not being able to stand by Hadley.





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Choisya
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Re: Hemingway and Women (If anyone gets to Paris - here is a walk for you)

I am meeting Danielle, a B&N contributor from Paris, on Tuesday and will ask her if she has does that walk.




bentley wrote:
Possibly an interesting walk.


http://www.pbs.org/hemingwayadventure/pariswalk.html

Message Edited by bentley on 02-25-200708:04 PM




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bentley
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Re: Hemingway and Women (If anyone gets to Paris - here is a walk for you)

Sounds like a great walk and England is not that far from Paris..I am wondering if it has changed much since the documentary. Let me know what she says.




Choisya wrote:
I am meeting Danielle, a B&N contributor from Paris, on Tuesday and will ask her if she has does that walk.




bentley wrote:
Possibly an interesting walk.


http://www.pbs.org/hemingwayadventure/pariswalk.html

Message Edited by bentley on 02-25-200708:04 PM







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fanuzzir
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Re: For Bentley



ELee wrote:
Of his writing he said:

(to himself) "All you have to do is write one true sentence. Write the truest sentence you know." So finally I would write one true sentence, and then go from there. It was easy then because there was always one true sentence that I knew or had seen or had heard someone say. If I started to write elaborately, or like someone introducing or presenting something, I found that I could cut that scrollwork or ornament out and throw it away and start with the first true simple declarative sentence I had written. ...I decided that I would write one story about each thing that I knew about. ...I learned not to think about anything that I was writing from the time I stopped writing until I started again the next day. That way my subconscious would be working on it and at the same time I would be listening to other people and noticing everything, I hoped; learning, I hoped; and I would read so that I would not think about my work and make myself impotent to do it."




Some random observations:
Hemingway wrote this after enjoying a martini and an oyster in a favorite cafe. The asperity of that repast seemed to fit the precision of his literary method.
Second, he was seeking out these little haunts and moments to gain respite from being home with his new wife Hadley.
Third, he did express great regret for cheating on Hadley in the final chapters of A Moveable Feast.
Fourth, the ability to turn guilty pleasure into just plain guilt with the passage of time is exactly what he means by a moveable feast.

Thanks Elee and Bentley for your close readings.
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Choisya
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Re: Hemingway and Women (If anyone gets to Paris - here is a walk for you)

No, we can get to Paris by train now from Waterloo in around 2 hours. I visit about once a year but usually to see an art exhibition. My walking days are over although some exhibitions involve a lot of walking too.




bentley wrote:
Sounds like a great walk and England is not that far from Paris..I am wondering if it has changed much since the documentary. Let me know what she says.




Choisya wrote:
I am meeting Danielle, a B&N contributor from Paris, on Tuesday and will ask her if she has does that walk.




bentley wrote:
Possibly an interesting walk.


http://www.pbs.org/hemingwayadventure/pariswalk.html

Message Edited by bentley on 02-25-200708:04 PM










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bentley
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Re: For Bentley

Thanks Bob.

I appreciate your response and insight. I will complete this anthology and continue to post as I get through the remainder of the stories (as long as the threads are here). I have enjoyed learning a lot more about his short stories (more than I thought I wanted to know about Hemingway) and coming away feeling that EH could certainly convey a message in a few pages (even though you did not feel uplifted at the end of it, more often annoyed, saddened, or just perplexed). But some of the stories were "just exceptional".

I tried to cut him a little bit of slack thinking "well" he expressed remorse on his cheating on Hadley but I think down deep he was a troubled person. His father had an outrageous temper yet it is Grace who gets the "beating down" by EH not so much his father. Sometimes I think with sons there is a glorification of the father and a demonizing of the mother. Pauline was almost demonized by Gregory who didn't have as many harsh words to say about his father. EH demonized Grace and so on. Patrick tried to pretend in the interview at the Kennedy Library that everything was A-OK. Jack at least stated that it was a blessing that the marriage with his mother Hadley ended when it did..she still had her looks and found someone else (a poet) She had a "second life" after Hemingway with the poet Paul Mowrer.

His exact words were, "She was eight years older than Papa, and...the breakup...was a blessing. It took place while she was still an attractive and desirable woman."

And it was clear that he (EH) took regular daily vacations from his life with Hadley and his young son.

Thank you for your explanation of the concept of A Moveable Feast as well and it was my pleasure to learn as much as I have done in the process.
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bentley
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Re: Hemingway and Women (If anyone gets to Paris - here is a walk for you)


Choisya wrote:
No, we can get to Paris by train now from Waterloo in around 2 hours. I visit about once a year but usually to see an art exhibition. My walking days are over although some exhibitions involve a lot of walking too



Choisya,

Possibly you can hire a driver to take you around by car to look at the streets, the neighborhoods, and possibly sample food/drink at the many establishments along the way. Whatever the venue, have a wonderful time.

Bentley
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ELee
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a little bit of slack (spoiler for "Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog")

Bentley wrote:

"I tried to cut him a little bit of slack thinking "well" he expressed remorse on his cheating on Hadley but I think down deep he was a troubled person. His father had an outrageous temper yet it is Grace who gets the "beating down" by EH not so much his father. Sometimes I think with sons there is a glorification of the father and a demonizing of the mother."

Me too Bentley. I was looking to cut him a little slack also. I thought I had found something in "Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog" which was one of his later (and less accomplished?-according to some) stories that looked a little like an expression of love and true compassion. Then I got hit in the head with the heavy brick of understanding and a great wave of sadness washed over me. True sadness to the point of poignancy. What I originally thought was love and concern for the wife of the newly blind writer, as he tries to come up with a way for her to take a "vacation" from nursing him, turned sour after a second reading. Yes, they've been on the rocks and Phil says they were "for keeps". Yes, he tries to placate her and make her believe things will almost be like they were before. Phil says "Of course I want you, darling" and "We do wonderful things in the dark". But then she says "Don't lie too much" and the thin veil disguising his intent begins to tear. In his mind he has "The Plan" which is basically her going away so that he can relieve his conscience and embrace it as one would a pillow. As she weakens and begins to cry, we find out that he is not going to sleep with just "any" lousy pillow (woman?). At the closing he says that he has to get her away because he is "not doing too well at this". What at first glance appears to be a struggle with his rehabilitation from recent blindness is actually the acknowledgement that what he can't do well is have a mutual loving relationship with his wife.

Hemingway definitely had "mother" issues. When he was very young, she tried to "make" him and his older sister "twins", dressing him as a girl and having them pursue the same activities. This, along with her other "dominations" had to have a profound effect on Hemingway. My personal opinion is that he may have wanted to love women and lead a "normal" married life, but was incapable of it. While I have the greatest respect for his writing, I think in future it will have to be enjoyed in smaller doses - I'm Hemingway-ed out. I am going to read Kenneth S. Lynn's biography of EH and finish "Moveable Feast", and then move on for a while. (I also got Claire Tomalin's new biography on Thomas Hardy and I can't wait to read it - I really like the way she writes!)
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"Cat in the Rain"

[ Edited ]

fanuzzir wrote:Let me add my two cents. I hate this story. I hate the way it makes a noble pursuit of a woman's interest in a wet cat. I hate the way the cat is all she can have, all she can want. I hate the fact that she gets the cat and will go on to live with this unfeeling **bleep**. Of course I admire Hemingway for having the bravery to paint such a bleak portrait. But I also resent him for giving a women her, so to speak, say, and making her the wounded little kitty. Go to it.




I liked the story. Yet another variation of a no-relationship. I wonder how many EH can think of. He paints the moment very well. As usually, it is like he's taking snapshots. Here one feels like a voyeur. I wonder about the function of those two men, the transposition. Her liking of the hotel manager shows how desperate and frustrated she is. It's more or less screaming out of her when she is on her way out to fetch the cat.

Another good thing about the story - it is really short! An abreviation of sorts, all actually summed up in one line: "don't get wet". Sex is not gonna happen there and neither an intimacy of any other sort.

I like that the stories talk for themselves, the more I read the less I want to hear about his life; it's actually irrelevant if his writing can stand on its own as it does. Neat discovery.

I take his advice: "Why don't you shut up and read something?"......OK, darling. I will.

ziki ;-)


PS
gosh... I get my one star by my enemy while I am still editing the post...amazing...cat's waiting for the rat.....ROFL.

Message Edited by ziki on 02-26-200705:54 PM

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bentley
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Re: a little bit of slack (spoiler for "Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog")

ELee,

I really like your insights and analysis and I haven't gotten to "Get a Seeing-Eye Dog" but I plan to finish this quest so I will queue it up to the top. I plan to finish this anthology (I don't care if it takes me another month).

It is so odd you mentioned the Lynn book. I had the Lynn book in my hand when I went to pick up A Moveable Feast since I lost my copy. But I thought finish what you have started first, move on to A Moveable Feast and then if you still want more (read Lynn). I admonished myself from sticking too long with Hemingway right now.

I absolutely am going to read this story tonight so that I can comment on it intelligently. I love when someone actually reads the stories like you do. I have felt alone in the desert spitting in the wind. Thank god Bob looked in every now and then to throw me some water. I was going to use that term about being Hemingway-ed out but didn't know if it was just me. I think the guy (EH) just wore me down like being around a bipolar type of individual or a manic depressive (of course I could only imagine this thank goodness but I think EH gave me a good feel what it might have been like living with him through his writings). Four weeks worth. I sort of tried to imagine if I were the spouse or the girlfriend and was spoken to in these terms etc or treated indifferently. I might have said, "Partner, get on your horse and ride." As far away as possible." It amazed me the number of people he had a falling out with in his life who had helped him tremendously.

I also thought about how it would be for a woman that was being dated and wooed by a man to be called daughter??? I do not under any circumstances think I would have inferred it was ok. For that matter for a woman dating a man to call the suitor "son". How odd is that?

I will have to look at the biography on Thomas Hardy as well. Will queue it up on my list. I will go and read the short story right now.

As always, enjoyed your insights and the fact that you are reading what we are talking about. And thank you for doing it so beautifully..all of your analyses were absolutely right on. Great job ELee..hope you do this sort of writing for a living ...because if you don't...you really should. I could, like zman, see you as a professor teaching English Literature, etc. or a writer.

Hemingway had a great gift and I respect his talent and his work. But like I said before, he can wear you down (sometimes you need an uplifting piece of work to make you feel better or to be inspired). EH touched every raw nerve and the ability that he had (and still does) to do that was and is impressive. He really is an icon (maybe just not a likeable one).



ELee said:

Me too Bentley. I was looking to cut him a little slack also. I thought I had found something in "Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog" which was one of his later (and less accomplished?-according to some) stories that looked a little like an expression of love and true compassion. Then I got hit in the head with the heavy brick of understanding and a great wave of sadness washed over me. True sadness to the point of poignancy. What I originally thought was love and concern for the wife of the newly blind writer, as he tries to come up with a way for her to take a "vacation" from nursing him, turned sour after a second reading. Yes, they've been on the rocks and Phil says they were "for keeps". Yes, he tries to placate her and make her believe things will almost be like they were before. Phil says "Of course I want you, darling" and "We do wonderful things in the dark". But then she says "Don't lie too much" and the thin veil disguising his intent begins to tear. In his mind he has "The Plan" which is basically her going away so that he can relieve his conscience and embrace it as one would a pillow. As she weakens and begins to cry, we find out that he is not going to sleep with just "any" lousy pillow (woman?). At the closing he says that he has to get her away because he is "not doing too well at this". What at first glance appears to be a struggle with his rehabilitation from recent blindness is actually the acknowledgement that what he can't do well is have a mutual loving relationship with his wife.

Hemingway definitely had "mother" issues. When he was very young, she tried to "make" him and his older sister "twins", dressing him as a girl and having them pursue the same activities. This, along with her other "dominations" had to have a profound effect on Hemingway. My personal opinion is that he may have wanted to love women and lead a "normal" married life, but was incapable of it. While I have the greatest respect for his writing, I think in future it will have to be enjoyed in smaller doses - I'm Hemingway-ed out. I am going to read Kenneth S. Lynn's biography of EH and finish "Moveable Feast", and then move on for a while. (I also got Claire Tomalin's new biography on Thomas Hardy and I can't wait to read it - I really like the way she writes!)



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off topic



Choisya wrote:Ziki and I find it amusing that none of the real Shakespearean insults being used for fun on the Midsummer Night's Dream language thread are being bleeped!



Oh do I? I didn't see any yet..gotta do my homework.
I hope I get one star for this post, too! I have obviously a secret stalker here that reads my posts as soon as they appear, I am honored! I try to spread them around the clock...night and day....stay tuned :-p

ziki
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all that pathetic talk about Hemingway

Quote from link:

Gordimer: "Too much will be speculated about him, too much spoken about him, too much written about him," Gordimer said. "When we go home, let us leave his life alone. It belongs to him. Let's read his books."

Finally someone spoke!

ziki
thanks bentley for your links
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bentley
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Re: a little bit of slack (spoiler for "Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog")

I loved ELee's interpretation of Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog and I did not want it to be lost in the flurry of recent posts. ELee, I am reading this story right now and will get back to this.





ELee wrote:
Bentley wrote:

"I tried to cut him a little bit of slack thinking "well" he expressed remorse on his cheating on Hadley but I think down deep he was a troubled person. His father had an outrageous temper yet it is Grace who gets the "beating down" by EH not so much his father. Sometimes I think with sons there is a glorification of the father and a demonizing of the mother."

Me too Bentley. I was looking to cut him a little slack also. I thought I had found something in "Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog" which was one of his later (and less accomplished?-according to some) stories that looked a little like an expression of love and true compassion. Then I got hit in the head with the heavy brick of understanding and a great wave of sadness washed over me. True sadness to the point of poignancy. What I originally thought was love and concern for the wife of the newly blind writer, as he tries to come up with a way for her to take a "vacation" from nursing him, turned sour after a second reading. Yes, they've been on the rocks and Phil says they were "for keeps". Yes, he tries to placate her and make her believe things will almost be like they were before. Phil says "Of course I want you, darling" and "We do wonderful things in the dark". But then she says "Don't lie too much" and the thin veil disguising his intent begins to tear. In his mind he has "The Plan" which is basically her going away so that he can relieve his conscience and embrace it as one would a pillow. As she weakens and begins to cry, we find out that he is not going to sleep with just "any" lousy pillow (woman?). At the closing he says that he has to get her away because he is "not doing too well at this". What at first glance appears to be a struggle with his rehabilitation from recent blindness is actually the acknowledgement that what he can't do well is have a mutual loving relationship with his wife.

Hemingway definitely had "mother" issues. When he was very young, she tried to "make" him and his older sister "twins", dressing him as a girl and having them pursue the same activities. This, along with her other "dominations" had to have a profound effect on Hemingway. My personal opinion is that he may have wanted to love women and lead a "normal" married life, but was incapable of it. While I have the greatest respect for his writing, I think in future it will have to be enjoyed in smaller doses - I'm Hemingway-ed out. I am going to read Kenneth S. Lynn's biography of EH and finish "Moveable Feast", and then move on for a while. (I also got Claire Tomalin's new biography on Thomas Hardy and I can't wait to read it - I really like the way she writes!)

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bentley
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Re: Comments on (spoiler for "Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog")

ELee,

I just finished reading the story and I once again have that sad feeling in my heart and I have two words for the male character "insuffererable sod". He baits his wife at every turn. This story was written during the "Mary phase" I think. I was trying to roll off the tip of my tongue...how you talk to someone with kitten this or kitten that and keep a straight face.

When she makes the pillow reference...he baits his poor wife and I think he is alluding to the fact that he will sleep with others. He is so cruel that he is sadistic in this story...I think that is the feeling that I get from these stories (that he wants to torture women and he can't stand their qualities). In fact, that is probably why he capitalized on big game hunting and on every sport known to man where women at that time did not go along with their men. More time to be away from the sex he could not stand. He obviously liked sex (it was just women he could not stomach). His irritating "you knows" were to bait her and get her upset..because these were things she did not know or would prefer not knowing.

How pitiful that the wife who is helping and trying to love a blind man feels that she might be sent away. The male character lies to her continually like most of the characters lie to women throughout the stories, telling them whatever they think the women want to hear. That they are pretty, that they are loved, that they want to be with them, that they are like kittens, etc. All geared to pacify and anesthetize the women character who tries to take this all in stride.

ELee you are right..by the time I got to the end..all I could think was what a bummer..EH has the greatest capacity for cruelty that I have ever seen. And most of this cruelty he directed towards the women in his life and the women characters in his writings.

I think EH was writing all true sentences...I think this is what his soul looked like and that is why it resonates for everyone...we are looking into the raw recesses of this dark and deadly mind and soul. I can't explain it any other way except to say that you always feel sad when you see such perverseness in real life, in a book or on the screen. It just affects you ...how could it not.

Thank you ELee for bubbling this story to the forefront. Your analysis was on target as it always is.









ELee wrote:
Bentley wrote:

"I tried to cut him a little bit of slack thinking "well" he expressed remorse on his cheating on Hadley but I think down deep he was a troubled person. His father had an outrageous temper yet it is Grace who gets the "beating down" by EH not so much his father. Sometimes I think with sons there is a glorification of the father and a demonizing of the mother."

Me too Bentley. I was looking to cut him a little slack also. I thought I had found something in "Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog" which was one of his later (and less accomplished?-according to some) stories that looked a little like an expression of love and true compassion. Then I got hit in the head with the heavy brick of understanding and a great wave of sadness washed over me. True sadness to the point of poignancy. What I originally thought was love and concern for the wife of the newly blind writer, as he tries to come up with a way for her to take a "vacation" from nursing him, turned sour after a second reading. Yes, they've been on the rocks and Phil says they were "for keeps". Yes, he tries to placate her and make her believe things will almost be like they were before. Phil says "Of course I want you, darling" and "We do wonderful things in the dark". But then she says "Don't lie too much" and the thin veil disguising his intent begins to tear. In his mind he has "The Plan" which is basically her going away so that he can relieve his conscience and embrace it as one would a pillow. As she weakens and begins to cry, we find out that he is not going to sleep with just "any" lousy pillow (woman?). At the closing he says that he has to get her away because he is "not doing too well at this". What at first glance appears to be a struggle with his rehabilitation from recent blindness is actually the acknowledgement that what he can't do well is have a mutual loving relationship with his wife.

Hemingway definitely had "mother" issues. When he was very young, she tried to "make" him and his older sister "twins", dressing him as a girl and having them pursue the same activities. This, along with her other "dominations" had to have a profound effect on Hemingway. My personal opinion is that he may have wanted to love women and lead a "normal" married life, but was incapable of it. While I have the greatest respect for his writing, I think in future it will have to be enjoyed in smaller doses - I'm Hemingway-ed out. I am going to read Kenneth S. Lynn's biography of EH and finish "Moveable Feast", and then move on for a while. (I also got Claire Tomalin's new biography on Thomas Hardy and I can't wait to read it - I really like the way she writes!)



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Choisya
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Re: Hemingway and Women (If anyone gets to Paris - here is a walk for you)

That costs money Bentley - not something I have a lot of!:smileysurprised: I always sample the food and drink though.:smileyhappy:




bentley wrote:

Choisya wrote:
No, we can get to Paris by train now from Waterloo in around 2 hours. I visit about once a year but usually to see an art exhibition. My walking days are over although some exhibitions involve a lot of walking too



Choisya,

Possibly you can hire a driver to take you around by car to look at the streets, the neighborhoods, and possibly sample food/drink at the many establishments along the way. Whatever the venue, have a wonderful time.

Bentley


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Choisya
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Re: "Cat in the Rain"

I like that the stories talk for themselves, the more I read the less I want to hear about his life; it's actually irrelevant if his writing can stand on its own as it does. Neat discovery.

Good observation Ziki - in the end, we have to take the stories on their own merits, difficult though that may be for some of us.




ziki wrote:

fanuzzir wrote:Let me add my two cents. I hate this story. I hate the way it makes a noble pursuit of a woman's interest in a wet cat. I hate the way the cat is all she can have, all she can want. I hate the fact that she gets the cat and will go on to live with this unfeeling **bleep**. Of course I admire Hemingway for having the bravery to paint such a bleak portrait. But I also resent him for giving a women her, so to speak, say, and making her the wounded little kitty. Go to it.




I liked the story. Yet another variation of a no-relationship. I wonder how many EH can think of. He paints the moment very well. As usually, it is like he's taking snapshots. Here one feels like a voyeur. I wonder about the function of those two men, the transposition. Her liking of the hotel manager shows how desperate and frustrated she is. It's more or less screaming out of her when she is on her way out to fetch the cat.

Another good thing about the story - it is really short! An abreviation of sorts, all actually summed up in one line: "don't get wet". Sex is not gonna happen there and neither an intimacy of any other sort.

I like that the stories talk for themselves, the more I read the less I want to hear about his life; it's actually irrelevant if his writing can stand on its own as it does. Neat discovery.

I take his advice: "Why don't you shut up and read something?"......OK, darling. I will.

ziki ;-)


PS
gosh... I get my one star by my enemy while I am still editing the post...amazing...cat's waiting for the rat.....ROFL.

Message Edited by ziki on 02-26-200705:54 PM




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Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
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Re: a little bit of slack (spoiler for "Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog")



bentley wrote:
I loved ELee's interpretation of Get a Seeing-Eyed Dog and I did not want it to be lost in the flurry of recent posts.


Those of us who subscribe to the Email messaging service get an email everytime someone posts to a thread we have checked, so neither E Lee's posts, or anyone elses, will get lost. I happily saw ELee had posted in my mailbox this morning and made all haste to it, as always, as she is one of my favourite posters.:smileyhappy:
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