Hemingway and Women (The Mother Complex)

[Choisya]

I found it helpful Bentley, thanks. I think one of the reasons that a URL is better is that we can file it away for reference, whereas a lengthy post in this small format might hit us in the eye at the wrong time, prove hard to read, and difficult to find again.

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bentley wrote:

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fanuzzir wrote:
Bentley, we're not in the habit of posting long scholarly citations in the discussino format. Can you abstract it for us the next time you want some outside reference? Bob

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Thank you for your comment. I thought the reference was pertinent; but can just cite the url. And it helped some folks like it helped me.

Since we are using literary criticism as a data point for our discussions, I thought it might be helpful to share what others have researched or found in Hemingway's biographies or autobiographies, etc. That's all.

But again, I will abstract it the next time I use the outside reference.

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[bentley]

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Choisya wrote:
I found it helpful Bentley, thanks. I think one of the reasons that a URL is better is that we can file it away for reference, whereas a lengthy post in this small format might hit us in the eye at the wrong time, prove hard to read, and difficult to find again.

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bentley wrote:

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fanuzzir wrote:
Bentley, we're not in the habit of posting long scholarly citations in the discussino format. Can you abstract it for us the next time you want some outside reference? Bob

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Thank you for your comment. I thought the reference was pertinent; but can just cite the url. And it helped some folks like it helped me.

Since we are using literary criticism as a data point for our discussions, I thought it might be helpful to share what others have researched or found in Hemingway's biographies or autobiographies, etc. That's all.

But again, I will abstract it the next time I use the outside reference.

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Thanks Choisya...I am getting so much out of this forum and everyone's suggestions/insights/responses as well. Yes, of course you are correct. And for a reference it certainly would be easier as an abstract...have been busy lately and not much time for the bc (so posted the interesting reference quickly). Again I am glad you found it helpful as well.

[ziki]

bentley,
I'd appreciate if you post your conclusions and your sources. We all saw that site's URL already so if you later extract something from it that you find important tell me why rather than posting what other people said on another forum. There is so much "Hemingway talk" circulating around aproximating value of a pure gossip at times.

Do not asume others have to learn what you need to learn, assume they do their own thinking. Your contribution will be the more valuable if a dialog happens.

The issue with H's mother is more complex than that IMHO.

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 02-20-200702:17 PM

[bentley]

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ziki wrote:
bentley,
I'd appreciate if you post your conclusions and your sources. We all saw that site's URL already so if you later extract something from it that you find important tell me why rather than posting what other people said on another forum. There is so much "Hemingway talk" circulating around aproximating value of a pure gossip at times.

Do not asume others have to learn what you need to learn, assume they do their own thinking. Your contribution will be the more valuable if a dialog happens.

The issue with H's mother is more complex than that IMHO.

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 02-20-200702:17 PM

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I find your post untrue. And there are other thoughts that come to mind. However, please note that sources are always cited if I use them. I find that literary criticism, biographies and autobiographies to be a great source of information and I have shared all in the spirit of sharing and having fun.

You are off target and if you do not want to comment on any post of mine, that is OK.

Message Edited by bentley on 02-20-200709:45 AM

[bentley]

It was interesting to me to note that there are some stories where there are no women characters but there are still comments about relationships and women.

In The Three Day Blow (no women characters), Hemingway appears to be talking through Bill to express his ideas on marriage. It seems that Nick is conflicted about what he did in ending the relationship because he was looking for a way out and maybe was thinking that he still might be able to salvage the relationship with Marjorie if he changed his mind. That kind of conflict apparently was how Hemingway thought possibly in real life...he may have been working out his own conflicts or dilemmas with his characters and with his own writing. His fiction is almost not fiction...he wrote in a different era...so therefore people were not as contentious. I am wondering if these stories/books were published today if somebody wouldn't be suing him because there were "actual events or people" that he was portraying in his work even though he was using caricatures of them. Some of these caricatures were none too flattering to the people he was describing.

He really was an interesting man as well as an exceptional writer but he does leave the reader out in the cold when describing details which he then leaves up to the reader to decide or to find out (either from that story or an earlier one).

Message Edited by bentley on 02-20-200710:20 AM

[bentley]

In "The Porter" out of the blue after discussing razors and boxers, the porter launches into an adult conversation with a child concerning women and wives and sex. It almost doesn't fit in.

George says to Jimmy: "Jimmy, there's nothing to the whole business. You get syphed up from women or if you're married your wife'll run around. In the railroad business you're away from home nights. That kind of girl you want is the kind of girl that'll jig you because she can't help it. You want her because she can't help it and you lose her because she can't help it and a man's only got so many orgasms to his whole life and what difference does it make when you feel worse after liquor."

I think the porter is talking about his own life but isn't it strange that he uses the word jig and that was the name that the American called the female character in the short story "Hills like White Elephants".

[ziki]

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bentley wrote: I find that literary criticism, biographies and autobiographies to be a great source of information and I have shared all in the spirit of sharing and having fun.

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yes, sure...
ziki

[bentley]

Hemingway moved to Paris and had married Hadley who was wealthy but older than he was. He wrote this story while he was there. It appears this story is depicting his life with Hadley and it is not surprising they divorced.

George, the male character, spends the entire story in bed reading a book, paying little attention to his wife who obviously feels very much alone. She seems a little vain (petulant maybe) and most of what she says can be summed up in this paragraph:

"I want to pull my hair back tight and smooth and make a big knot at the back that I can feel. I want to have a kitty to sit on my lap and purr when I stroke her. . . . And I want to eat at a table with my own silver and I want candles. And I want it to be spring and I want to brush my hair out in front of a mirror and I want a kitty and I want some new clothes."

One can certainly see that there was a lack of emotion from the husband and he frankly didn't want to be bothered or to connect or to understand. He simply says: ""Oh, shut up and get something to read."

The woman simply wants to feel alive in her relationship and have something or someone to care for and for them to care for her. The last thing she needs is something to read..she really wants to feel alive and wants something to feel (like the cat or being close and in love with her husband).

I don't think Hemingway could live without women but he didn't really understand their needs or even maybe his own. The stray cat that she is trying to rescue huddled in the rain sort of symbolizes the American wife who maybe needs to be rescued from the cold, indifferent husband and from the life she is now leading.

[fanuzzir]

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ziki wrote:
bentley,
I'd appreciate if you post your conclusions and your sources. We all saw that site's URL already so if you later extract something from it that you find important tell me why rather than posting what other people said on another forum. There is so much "Hemingway talk" circulating around aproximating value of a pure gossip at times.

Do not asume others have to learn what you need to learn, assume they do their own thinking. Your contribution will be the more valuable if a dialog happens.

The issue with H's mother is more complex than that IMHO.

ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 02-20-200702:17 PM

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I am going to speak to this post as a moderator who had recently posted a request of a contributor and who had already received a response from that same contributor.

The people who write on this board are adults who have expertise and accomplishments in many areas but who nonetheless make the decision to expose themselves to the opinions of others in a book club. They put themselves in that vulnerable position because they place their trust in the authority of the moderator to set guidelines and to provide advice. When those guidelines and advice do not come from the moderator but instead from another contributor, that trust can be damaged. In this case, I am so happy to see it is not broken because the contributor got right back into the thick of things. But in order for contributors to extend themselves intellectually and personally and maintain their trust in our community, guidelines and advice should come from the moderator (unless he or she asks for help).

Thank you all for taking this guideline to heart.

Message Edited by fanuzzir on 02-21-200701:24 AM

[fanuzzir]

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bentley wrote:

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fanuzzir wrote:
Bentley, we're not in the habit of posting long scholarly citations in the discussino format. Can you abstract it for us the next time you want some outside reference? Bob

---

Thank you for your comment. I thought the reference was pertinent; but can just cite the url. And it helped some folks like it helped me.

Since we are using literary criticism as a data point for our discussions, I thought it might be helpful to share what others have researched or found in Hemingway's biographies or autobiographies, etc. That's all.

But again, I will abstract it the next time I use the outside reference.

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Bentley, I just get allergic to very long posts. Many of us (not me, the supposed scholar) have posted links to references or provided abstracts, as you say. Thank you for your research.
Bob

[bentley]

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fanuzzir wrote:

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bentley wrote:

---

fanuzzir wrote:
Bentley, we're not in the habit of posting long scholarly citations in the discussino format. Can you abstract it for us the next time you want some outside reference? Bob

---

Thank you for your comment. I thought the reference was pertinent; but can just cite the url. And it helped some folks like it helped me.

Since we are using literary criticism as a data point for our discussions, I thought it might be helpful to share what others have researched or found in Hemingway's biographies or autobiographies, etc. That's all.

But again, I will abstract it the next time I use the outside reference.

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Bentley, I just get allergic to very long posts. Many of us (not me, the supposed scholar) have posted links to references or provided abstracts, as you say. Thank you for your research.
Bob

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This is just an FYI:

Did you know that there is a known bug in posting the urls. This is I have discovered known by the Barnes and Noble technical staff and they are working on it.

It is not something that happens all of the time I guess because it did not happen to me originally but it is happening now (all of the time)..therefore the problem in getting the urls to post correctly in the first place. I chose to post the cut and paste because the url did not post properly like it should and thought that it might be a problem on my end which I am told it is not.

According to Kevin:

"Thank you for your note. I'm sorry you're having trouble making these links. I don't think you're doing anything wrong. The special characters in the URL (in this case, the plus signs) are not being read the right way by our system. It's known bug that has been reported to the developers, and will be fixed over time.

Thanks for reporting this problem, and for being part of the Book Clubs."

Secondly, I also asked the technical staff if this has been reported anywhere on the board as a known problem but I have not gotten a second response yet. The fact that they are aware of it is great but I was wondering if you were.

Long posts therefore would not be necessary because the urls would be working which they are not now for me and I guess others (not sure how wide spread this is) since I was only asking for myself and of course I agree with you that abstracts are best and I for one will definately heed your requests. Take care..bet you think being in the classroom is easier..only kidding now..

PS: Thank you for the other post.

Message Edited by bentley on 02-21-200709:19 AM

[Choisya]

Yes, several of us have posted about this elsewhere Bentley. It seems to occur when the URLs are particularly long. Most folks put in the correct HTML hyperlink tags themselves - at the beginning of the URL, in the middle (then repeat the URL) and at the end - and this solves the problem. This may help:-

http://www.2createawebsite.com/build/html.html#hyperlinks






Bentley wrote:
This is just an FYI:

Did you know that there is a known bug in posting the urls. This is I have discovered known by the Barnes and Noble technical staff and they are working on it.

It is not something that happens all of the time I guess because it did not happen to me originally but it is happening now (all of the time)..therefore the problem in getting the urls to post correctly in the first place. I chose to post the cut and paste because the url did not post properly like it should and thought that it might be a problem on my end which I am told it is not.

According to Kevin:

"Thank you for your note. I'm sorry you're having trouble making these links. I don't think you're doing anything wrong. The special characters in the URL (in this case, the plus signs) are not being read the right way by our system. It's known bug that has been reported to the developers, and will be fixed over time.

Thanks for reporting this problem, and for being part of the Book Clubs."

Secondly, I also asked the technical staff if this has been reported anywhere on the board as a known problem but I have not gotten a second response yet. The fact that they are aware of it is great but I was wondering if you were.

Long posts therefore would not be necessary because the urls would be working which they are not now for me and I guess others (not sure how wide spread this is) since I was only asking for myself and of course I agree with you that abstracts are best and I for one will definately heed your requests. Take care..bet you think being in the classroom is easier..only kidding now..

PS: Thank you for the other post.

Message Edited by bentley on 02-21-200709:19 AM

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Message Edited by Choisya on 02-21-200712:13 PM

Message Edited by Choisya on 02-21-200712:15 PM

Message Edited by Choisya on 02-21-200712:15 PM

[bentley]

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Choisya wrote:
Yes, several of us have posted about this elsewhere Bentley. I put the correct HTML tags in myself and this solves the problem. You need to put in the middle, repeat the URL then put at the end. This may not post correctly though!

Yes, Choisya..you are right..it then doesn't post correctly..a real bug. I am only reading the Heminway threads and Finca Vigia..can't handle much more than that..so I did not see the fact you or others were having any problems as well.

thanks for your response though..appreciated

[ziki]

Thank you for caring for the best of all.
I for one have lost trust.
ziki

Message Edited by ziki on 02-21-200708:46 PM

[bentley]

There are some interesting characterizations about women here.

An American journalist named Elizabeth is the female character in this story and I find some of the observations in line with H's views on women.

First, it was discussed that she had the best room in the "Old Homestead" as it was called and she had a splendid electric heater (I am not sure if H was simply talking about the heater). She was described as very hardworking and had been trying to keep her work room...just that a workroom and not a meeting place. H described her as being unsuccessful in doing that.

Then we see her very angry with the Authority. She stated, "He brought me here. He said it was quite safe. And he went away and did not even say good-bye." Edwin Henry (obviously EH himself) says that he can't be a gentleman and then calls her daughter, previously calling her "girl". To me it indicates in a very mild way I guess that he sees her professionally as in a lesser role and not of the same rank and stature as men (he doesn't seem to call any of the men boys or sons).

EH was actually quite gentle on the girl (he obviously liked her).

Johnny (another character)..wants to make the distinction that she really is not one of them...he says, "You are not men. You are a womans. Don't make a confusion." Basically I think to make sure Elizabeth knew where she stood.

However, Elizabeth did have some "intestinal fortitude" when she told the Authority that she would not take his ride but that, "We are all going home together."

EH comments when chided by Johnny that the attack upset her. She feels badly. Johnny then repeats a comment about her differentness just in case the reader forgot, "A woman who doesn't upset by an attack is not woman."

The other character says,"It was a very unsuccessful attack. Fortunately, she did not see it from too close. We must never let her see one from close regardless of the danger. It is too strong a thing. From where she saw it is only a picture. Like an old fashioned battle scene." My feeling is that EH felt that woman should be protected from this sort of thing and their place was not in the battlefield. I wonder if he was thinking of Martha Gelhorn when he was speaking. Maybe he felt that they should be home tending to their families and in their kitchens.

Johnny's only retort is that she has a kind heart and that EH doesn't have one and then points out once again the differences (between a man and a woman (called a girl, daughter).

[zman]

This has been an interesting if long-winded and occasionally non sequiter thread.

I believe that Hemingway's female characters portray a broad and variegated range of women, many of those characters being drawn from his own experience. I also believe that his philandering was nothing special. It was no different than the general philandering of both men and women throughout history. Let's be honest, Homo sapiens is not an intrinsically monogamous animal. After all, how do you fight billions of years of evolution designing our brains and bodies to propogate the species?

What IS special is the way he could put it all into words.

[bentley]

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zman wrote:
This has been an interesting if long-winded and occasionally non sequiter thread.

I believe that Hemingway's female characters portray a broad and variegated range of women, many of those characters being drawn from his own experience. I also believe that his philandering was nothing special. It was no different than the general philandering of both men and women throughout history. Let's be honest, Homo sapiens is not an intrinsically monogamous animal. After all, how do you fight billions of years of evolution designing our brains and bodies to propogate the species?

What IS special is the way he could put it all into words.

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zman, they are definately drawn from his own experiences..I don't know if I think that his philandering was nothing special (considering when he wrote these stories)..guess I would like to believe that monogamy is possible (although I can see your point)..but EH seemed to take philandering to new heights (again also considering the time period in which he wrote).

he definately had a way with words and you don't miss much with the ones he included either...they are all placed perfectly. i am not sure that i have seen yet a female character who is strong (not in the cruel sense) and does it all (home and career) portrayed in any of his stories; they always seem to be more often less developed than the male characters..more of an after thought but essential to some of his story telling.

appreciate your insights and take on this..

[Choisya]

Who was it who said Higamous hogamous man is Polyamous/Hogamous Higamous Woman is Monogamous? I agree that philandering is and always has been a universal occupation and that Hemingway was just a run of the mill philanderer.

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zman wrote:
This has been an interesting if long-winded and occasionally non sequiter thread.

I believe that Hemingway's female characters portray a broad and variegated range of women, many of those characters being drawn from his own experience. I also believe that his philandering was nothing special. It was no different than the general philandering of both men and women throughout history. Let's be honest, Homo sapiens is not an intrinsically monogamous animal. After all, how do you fight billions of years of evolution designing our brains and bodies to propogate the species?

What IS special is the way he could put it all into words.

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[ziki]

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bentley wrote: i am not sure that i have seen yet a female character who is strong (not in the cruel sense) and does it all (home and career) portrayed in any of his stories....

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I think that has also to do with the time period in which he lived.

ziki

[zman]

I'm not suggesting that monogamy is impossible. All I'm saying is that the practice of monogamy requires the supression of deeply-rooted instincts. Why would we need a commandment against coveting a neighbor's wife if it weren't something we were predisposed to do?

One interesting female character is the wife in "The Snows of Mt. Kilimanjaro." Here is a dedicated and loving woman that the protagonist pushes away and then draws back out of guilt. He finally escapes her altogether by dying!

As for myself, I can sympathize wholeheartedly with some of Hemingway's attitudes toward women. I personally can't stand someone who depends (too much) on me for any kind of emotional or or spiritual support, or worse, financial. I've hated it in my life when I've become the meaning of someone else's existence. It's cloying in the extreme.

And yet, there is nothing on the planet so fascinating as women.